Under what circumstances is anime accepted by a more mainstream audience?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by hyl

Batman (1939) and superman (1938)

Spiderman (1962), X-Men (1963), The Avengers (1963)


So superheroes are more than just a carry-over from 80 years ago.

Originally Posted by hyl

As for cultural differences, i don't have to remind you what happened in the 30's historically.

Which is irrelevant, given that many extremely popular super-heroes came out in the 1960s.

[hyl]

Do i have to remind you what i said?

Originally Posted by hyl

Comic books were pretty mainstream starting like the 30's (maybe even earlier) and because of that super heroes have become a part of American culture though

Also comic books give us an interesting thing on what was happening in the USA, like let's take your example of the x-men from 1963 and the racism issue in the US in the 60's. Or the more obvious one being captain america in 1941 and WWII

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by hyl

Do i have to remind you what i said?

Superheroes all but died out for a significant period due to this man. In the 1950s, superheros took a major hit in the public consciousness.

The 1960s titles I listed weren't just riding off the coattails of Batman and Superman. The 1960s titles I listed played a substantial role in reviving superhero comics from what Wertham did to them.

So the popularity of superheroes is not just a carryover from the 1930s.


Look, hyl, this is the bottom line - North American audiences have no problem with heroic characters with super-powers wearing flashy/unusual costumes. In fact, such characters have never been more popular than what they are now. There is no particular reason why magical girl anime couldn't tap into the same audience that likes superheroes. I myself am a magical girl anime fan in large part because I was previously a superhero fan.

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Superheroes all but died out for a significant period due to this man. In the 1950s, superheros took a major hit in the public consciousness.

The 1960s titles I listed weren't just riding off the coattails of Batman and Superman. The 1960s titles I listed played a substantial role in reviving superhero comics from what Wertham did to them.

So the popularity of superheroes is not just a carryover from the 1930s.

You are now talking about the silver age of comic, which started in slightly before the 60's, while it had to start at the golden age of the 30's. And i am not going into the subject of the transition between the golden and silver age of comic books because it will bring a whole lot of extra non-relevant for the thread kind of information.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Look, hyl, this is the bottom line - North American audiences have no problem with heroic characters with super-powers wearing flashy/unusual costumes. In fact, such characters have never been more popular than what they are now. There is no particular reason why magical girl anime couldn't tap into the same audience that likes superheroes. I myself am a magical girl anime fan in large part because I was previously a superhero fan.

Not denying why superhero fans might like mahou shoujo's but there is still a big cultural difference of both of them. Primarily because the majority of such shows target female (and in most cases the younger ones) while comic books while primarily for males, it has gained understanding from the female audience as well over the time.
While you might want to use the example of Madoka , Madoka itself is quite an exception among Mahou shoujo series (even for regular anime viewers). Most western non-anime watchers associate sailor moon,rayearth and cardcaptor sakura as their primary example of Mahou shoujo series.

[Sackett]

I think the point is that mainstreaming could be done with certain anime. Not so much the medium of anime, but the stories. And once the stories become mainstream, then the medium will gain respectability as well, much the same as how the live action movies made comic books, Star Trek, and Battlestar Galactica more acceptable to talk about.

Usagi Drop is another example of a show that could be easily mainstreamed in another medium. It's basically a show in the mold of Full House. Full of "D'awww" moments.

The main problem anime has right now is that it's associated with perverted antics, and toy/game series (think Pokemon), and shounen fighters. That's a very limited market. Transformers has made a break out, but it was heavily westernized from the beginning so most don't think of it as "anime."

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

1. Who exactly is this "broader adult audience" and what do they want?
2. Why are the existing options available to this audience not meeting their needs?
3. Why is the proposed anime content uniquely positioned to fill the gap?
4. How much investment is needed in order to effectively reach this audience?
5. When and how is the investment going to be recouped? What is the anticipated ROI?
6. What partners (domestic and beyond) are needed in order to accomplish the goal?
   
7. Is the investment worth the risk?

It's not like it hasn't occurred to anyone in the anime industry that some of the shows they make are only designed to reach a tiny fraction of a percent of the world's population. But serving a niche is good business, as long as you can manage your costs. Most anime is commissioned by companies trying to promote their new/existing brands and to sell merchandise to a fairly-defined audience, and this isn't necessarily going to stop as long as there are still franchises to promote and merchandise companies who believe in the business model. Of course there is still incentive to create shows that the audience will find appealing in terms of the characters, the story, and the overall production... but they have a pretty firm grasp of who they're targeting and how they're going to monetize them.

Really, the key is who you're going to get to fund these "mainstream projects" and what's in it for them (and how much time and investment will it take before they start getting their money back). The second is, of course, how you're going to make money off of these viewers in a direct sense. From my point of view, the demand is too low, the cost to market is too high, and the ROI is far too uncertain at least for animated TV series designed to reach this "broader adult" demographic, because you still generally need to get them on TV and in a timeslot where that audience can watch it. If the concept is so good that it can appeal to a broad cross-section of people in that format, I'd really wonder if it wouldn't be better to make it live-action, at least to reach a broader domestic market. Animated movies are perhaps a bit more feasible (and there are animated movies released every year in Japan that can appeal to a "broader adult audience"), but when Disney can't make even the best Ghibli films work overseas, I'd really want a clearer understanding of what they're doing wrong.

I think there will always be some shows that can also appeal to a broad cross-section (because "otaku" are people too, and universal themes also appeal to them, go figure), but specifically chasing after that elusive "broad adult market" that must be out there somewhere isn't where I'd place all my chips, anyway. I really can't believe in "if you build it, they will come."

I will vouch for Red Leaf and anwser some of the questions

Why are the existing options available to this audience not meeting their needs?

People over here have different expectations in terms of entertainment, lately entertainment was aimed at being grittier, more mature and more adult. Anime as a whole does not say mature and adult. So an Otaku O Clock show over here will have be like something you watch on HBO. Not this cheap tease comedy where the worst is a panty shot and maybe some cleavage. No, we want teenagers screwing softcore or something like that. Something like the old OVA days.

Why is the proposed anime content uniquely positioned to fill the gap?

Because people think this is Japan's entertainment niche, cartoons lack the same potential as anime. Tell me when was the last time you had a harem love comedy as a comic or cartoon?

How much investment is needed in order to effectively reach this audience?

The HBO/Starz audience is the aimed target in this matter. This crowd has the most amount of familiarity with adult content and if we want to appeal to them. We need to make anime feel like an animated HBO show.

What partners (domestic and beyond) are needed in order to accomplish the goal?

Studios that are willing to take the risk and try something different, remember we are in an age that actively shuns artistic entertainmeny as seen with Aku no Hana and Shin Sekai no Yori.

Why will this initiative succeed at capitalizing on this demographic where others have failed before?

Because this shows Japan can play with it's rival South Korea who understands you don't appeal to the crowd by making stuff that is cute, you appeal by making genuine adult entertainment.

My argument has always been aimed at stating Japan's unwillingness to embrace the current adult culture as what is hurting Japan's cultural value to today's society. They are behind in music, video games and the only they are good at is now a sad former shadow of itself dictated by BD sales.

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by bhl88

I'm sure the movie of Madoka is less fanservice (probably, with the exception of some scenes)....

Well, I was also somewhat looking from a business perspective (movies usually don't make as much for AS as TV shows.)

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Look, hyl, this is the bottom line - North American audiences have no problem with heroic characters with super-powers wearing flashy/unusual costumes. In fact, such characters have never been more popular than what they are now. There is no particular reason why magical girl anime couldn't tap into the same audience that likes superheroes. I myself am a magical girl anime fan in large part because I was previously a superhero fan.

Well, that's because so many people grew up with superheroes that they been kinda getting in the mainstream nowdays.

Also, keep in mind that while superheroes can be considered mainstream now thanks to Hollywood, that wasn't always the case. Comic book fans were basically shunned by the mainstream for a looooong time.

I guess you can make a bunch of magical girl anime mainstream by making Hollywood adaptions of them, but I don't think anime fans want that at all...

Originally Posted by asaqe

People over here have different expectations in terms of entertainment, lately entertainment was aimed at being grittier, more mature and more adult. Anime as a whole does not say mature and adult. So an Otaku O Clock show over here will have be like something you watch on HBO. Not this cheap tease comedy where the worst is a panty shot and maybe some cleavage. No, we want teenagers screwing softcore or something like that. Something like the old OVA days.

So let me get this straight.

People are already turned off by anime because of, uhh...fanservice, and your solution is to make the fanservice more exterme. Well...I'll watch that, but I doubt most of the public would.

Originally Posted by asaqe

The HBO/Starz audience is the aimed target in this matter. This crowd has the most amount of familiarity with adult content and if we want to appeal to them. We need to make anime feel like an animated HBO show.

You really think the HBO crowd would like anime? Really? Cuz I don't.

Originally Posted by asaqe

Because this shows Japan can play with it's rival South Korea who understands you don't appeal to the crowd by making stuff that is cute, you appeal by making genuine adult entertainment.

My argument has always been aimed at stating Japan's unwillingness to embrace the current adult culture as what is hurting Japan's cultural value to today's society. They are behind in music, video games and the only they are good at is now a sad former shadow of itself dictated by BD sales.

Using South Korea as a comparison, at least for the West, doesn't work. The only South Korean thing that is kinda popular here is Korean drama, and it's even more niche than anime in terms of actual viewership and market. And a lot of that popularity is because of the fact that we have a huge Korean community in America.

Would your coworkers accept it better than anime? Sure. But from a business perspective, that doesn't really work when there's no one actually watching. Businesses want to make a profit. Right now the only companies interested in licensing Korean dramas for North America are stream sites and Asian-language channels. That doesn't scream "success" to me.

Well, ok, there's Korean games, but...most of them aren't exactly of "cultural importance". In fact, a lot of people confuse Korean games with Japanese games.

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by speedyexpress48

Well, I was also somewhat looking from a business perspective (movies usually don't make as much for AS as TV shows.)


Well, that's because so many people grew up with superheroes that they been kinda getting in the mainstream nowdays.

Also, keep in mind that while superheroes can be considered mainstream now thanks to Hollywood, that wasn't always the case. Comic book fans were basically shunned by the mainstream for a looooong time.

I guess you can make a bunch of magical girl anime mainstream by making Hollywood adaptions of them, but I don't think anime fans want that at all...

So let me get this straight.

People are already turned off by anime because of, uhh...fanservice, and your solution is to make the fanservice more exterme. Well...I'll watch that, but I doubt most of the public would.

You really think the HBO crowd would like anime? Really? Cuz I don't..

The problem is this kind of fanservice is the complete cocktease kind of fanservice. Not the softcore "pink masting" blood and gore kind of fanservice people want when it comes to late night shows.

HBO's audience is mostly the kind who likes mature and adult shows, from simple dramas to titilating comedies unafraid of censors. So yeah, anime can fit that niche just fine as long it meets the HBO's standards for adult content.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

And if you don't build them, you've got nothing to sell. Chicken-and-egg problem.

Nah, it's not a "there's nothing to sell" issue (you've already listed many existing candidates), it's that "no one's buying". If no one's buying, creating more won't fix it.

("I've got all these eggs, but I'm only selling 1/4 of them... I can't break even like this. Wait, I know! The real problem is I don't have enough eggs; if I have double the eggs, I'd make double the sales! Quick, go buy more chickens!" Wait a minute... )

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Animated movies seem to be the key way to market mainstream anime in Japan. TV anime, on the other hand, tends to be heavily associated with merchandise targeted at core/niche consumers (that is, the otaku).

As for why movie anime aren't successful in the United States, like you say, it does appear to be boil down to botched marketing.

If this is really the key issue -- that the existing mainstream content that already exists isn't being marketed correctly -- then I reiterate: just creating more content aimed at that potential market isn't going to solve a thing until someone figures out how to sell it. If Disney can't figure it out (and I think they know a thing or two about selling cartoons to mainstream audiences), then what? On this point, I see very few ideas. The main suggestions so far have revolved around targetting a different but broader demographic with specific (or re-purposed) content. Hasn't this actually already been tried (though perhaps not with the specific shows mentioned)?

Originally Posted by asaqe

People over here have different expectations in terms of entertainment, lately entertainment was aimed at being grittier, more mature and more adult. Anime as a whole does not say mature and adult. So an Otaku O Clock show over here will have be like something you watch on HBO. Not this cheap tease comedy where the worst is a panty shot and maybe some cleavage. No, we want teenagers screwing softcore or something like that. Something like the old OVA days.

Perhaps I didn't phrase the question well enough, because this isn't really what I was trying to get at; I meant the other options in existing mainstream media, not in anime.

But that aside, there is already anime content like that. Where is the demand? Does it sell? Is it also just a marketing problem?

Incidentally, I would also just say: if we're talking about content that is designed to appeal specifically to the HBO/Starz audience and has that same aesthetic, why don't they just produce it themselves? If they really like the anime look, why not just contract a Japanese anime studio to produce it? I mean, what is it that we really want to get out of this in the first place? What distinctiveness does anime really bring to this equation anyway?


I guess all that to say that it's fun to speculate and say what we'd like to see, but if it were really so easy, the people whose invest their lives in this industry would most likely have already figured it out. Because otherwise, if someone here can develop the magic pill and come up with the workable business plan, then they'd better be talking to investors not us.

[Triple_R]

There have been anime shows with actual sex scenes in them. Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, School Days, Yosuga no Sora.

All of these enjoyed some degree of popularity (or notoriety as the case may be ), but none were megahits, IIRC.

I don't think that just throwing sex scenes into anime will make it go mainstream in the west. It might help, I suppose (replacing the "sillier" fanservice bits with serious sex scenes would make the anime show seem more mature, I guess), but I don't think this alone would have a major impact.

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There have been anime shows with actual sex scenes in them. Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, School Days, Yosuga no Sora.

All of these enjoyed some degree of popularity (or notoriety as the case may be ), but none were megahits, IIRC.

I don't think that just throwing sex scenes into anime will make it go mainstream in the west. It might help, I suppose (replacing the "sillier" fanservice bits with serious sex scenes would make the anime show seem more mature, I guess), but I don't think this alone would have a major impact.

Strangely enough your 3 examples of eroge adaptations with sex scenes in them, have (much) higher sales than the average eroge adaptation. So in a way, sex maybe does sell

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by hyl

Strangely enough your 3 examples of eroge adaptations with sex scenes in them, have (much) higher sales than the average eroge adaptation. So in a way, sex maybe does sell

Clannad and Kanon sold much better than those 3 shows I just listed. And they had no sex scenes at all.

In any event, I don't think there's been any eroge adaptation that's truly gone mainstream in the west, so I have my doubts that simply ramping up sex content in anime will make it more mainstream. In fact, I could see it backfiring. I could see it reinforcing the perception that many have that anime is just animated porn (and this is precisely why some people pass on it).

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Clannad and Kanon sold much better than those 3 shows I just listed. And they had no sex scenes at all.

Clannad was never an eroge. As for Kanon, it has a large fandom of "Key" fans so that it will always tend to sell very well (even little busters), just like anything what Type moon does (just incase you want to present Fate/stay night and tsukihime, since both were eroges). Also i used the sales of the "average" eroge adaption

Originally Posted by Triple_R

In any event, I don't think there's been any eroge adaptation that's truly gone mainstream in the west, so I have my doubts that simply ramping up sex content in anime will make it more mainstream. In fact, I could see it backfiring. I could see it reinforcing the perception that many have that anime is just animated porn (and this is precisely why some people pass on it).

Romance stories such as Kanon and Air (and Clannad, but that one did not start as an eroge, but whatever) have a good chance to liked by a broader audience, something like that is not "extreme" foreign and less bound by culture (eventhough there are differences in the japanese school settings, compared to the west ) and it might even work for the Western audience. While both series have been licensed, i have no idea how well (or bad) the sales were in the US

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by hyl

Clannad was never an eroge. As for Kanon, it has a large fandom of "Key" fans so that it will always tend to sell very well (even little busters), just like anything what Type moon does (just incase you want to present Fate/stay night and tsukihime, since both were eroges). Also i used the sales of the "average" eroge adaption


Romance stories such as Kanon and Air (and Clannad, but that one did not start as an eroge, but whatever) have a good chance to liked by a broader audience, something like that is not "extreme" foreign and less bound by culture (eventhough there are differences in the japanese school settings, compared to the west ) and it might even work for the Western audience. While both series have been licensed, i have no idea how well (or bad) the sales were in the US

The sales of CLANNAD were so good that they made a Blu-Ray.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by hyl

Clannad was never an eroge.

No, but it clearly has the same sort of date sim skeleton that eroge does. It has "girls routes". It is a VN.

As for Kanon, it has a large fandom of "Key" fans so that it will always tend to sell very well (even little busters),

And what made Key famous in the first place? Kanon was the very first Key work according to Wiki. I think the VN/anime itself deserves credit for its own popularity.

Frankly, your quote here is like saying "As for Superman, he has a large fandom of "DC" fans so that he will always tend to sell very well (even secondary Super-family characters like Supergirl)".

That's really missing the point. Key isn't famous just because its Key, just like DC comics isn't famous just because its DC comics. Kanon, Air, and Clannad made Key famous just like Superman and Batman made DC comics famous.

Romance stories such as Kanon and Air (and Clannad, but that one did not start as an eroge, but whatever) have a good chance to liked by a broader audience, something like that is not "extreme" foreign and less bound by culture (eventhough there are differences in the japanese school settings, compared to the west ) and it might even work for the Western audience. While both series have been licensed, i have no idea how well (or bad) the sales were in the US

As much as I love Clannad and Kanon, I honestly have a hard time seeing them going mainstream in the west. Key's female characters tend to have what I would call a strong taste of moe to them. I think it might be too much for mainstream western audiences. I'd love to be wrong here though.

[speedyexpress48]

Key works are the exception, not the norm, IMO. Type-Moon works also sell very well, but they are very different from your typical high school eroge works.

As for sales, Clannad did really well, but for Kanon...not completely sure, IMO, but considering that there's a Funimation SAVE version of it, it's most likely that Kanon did somewhat badly in the US.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And what made Key famous in the first place? Kanon was the very first Key work according to Wiki. I think the VN/anime itself deserves credit for its own popularity.

Most of Key's crew came from Tactics, a already somewhat popular VN developer. Also, the Kanon VN itself was 18+ (and the anime would not have been popular at all if not for the VN's popularity.)

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, but it clearly has the same sort of date sim skeleton that eroge does. It has "girls routes". It is a VN.

I am pretty sure your original comment was on the sex part, while addressing school days, YnS and KgE.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And what made Key famous in the first place? Come on, dude, Kanon was the very first Key work according to Wiki. I think the VN/anime itself deserves credit for its popularity.

The staff (like Maeda) for their previous works (like "Moon" and "One") before they started "Key" and like you said the original eroge/VN.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Frankly, your quote here is like saying "As for Superman, he has a large fandom of "DC" fans so that he will always tend to sell very well (even secondary Super-family characters like Supergirl)".

That's really missing the point. Key isn't famous just because its Key, just like DC comics isn't famous just because its DC comics. Kanon, Air, and Clannad made Key famous just like Superman and Batman made DC comics famous.

Not denying that Key does not deliver good stories (eventhough i was not not that fond of LB and Rewrite), but a large part of their sales does come from the huge fanbase that they have. There are many other VN's that have atleast the same level of writing, but these don't reach the same level of sales. (eventhough once again i am ranting on Rewrite for having lower sales than quite some eroges, but it might have to do that Rewrite was all-ages. However clannad also started as an all ages work but it did get high sales, so....)

Originally Posted by Triple_R

As much as I love Clannad and Kanon, I honestly have a hard time seeing them going mainstream in the west. Key's female characters tend to have what I would call a strong taste of moe to them. I think it might be too much for mainstream western audiences.

Something that pays of due to the sympathy/empathy that the viewer gets for the characters before dramatic/tragic events happen. Also "taste of moe" is subjective

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by speedyexpress48

Most of Key's crew came from Tactics, a already somewhat popular VN developer. Also, the Kanon VN itself was 18+ (and the anime would not have been popular at all if not for the VN's popularity.)

Clearly there wasn't much backlash over the Kanon anime chucking the sex scenes, or the Kanon anime would not have sold as well as it did. Which kind of suggests that the sex scenes in the Kanon VN weren't one of the main reasons for its commercial success.

Originally Posted by hyl

Something that pays of due to the sympathy/empathy that the viewer gets for the characters before dramatic/tragic events happen. Also "taste of moe" is subjective

Let me try to clarify what I mean by "Key's female characters tend to have what I would call a strong taste of moe to them."


Some moe girls aren't too far off from a real life American teenage girl. But others are so radically different from your real life American teenage girl that a general American audience wouldn't find them believable and/or acceptable as characters. Ayu Tsukimiya, Kotomi Ichinose, and Fuko Ibuki are three such moe girls, imo. And I write that as somebody who loves Kotomi.

It's just a bridge too far for people who aren't already seasoned anime fans, imo.

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Clearly there wasn't much backlash over the Kanon anime chucking the sex scenes, or the Kanon anime would not have sold as well as it did. Which kind of suggests that the sex scenes in the Kanon VN weren't one of the main reasons for its commercial success.

You seem to be missing the point that back then, having an anime adaption of an eroge was very rare and almost unheard of (well, you did have "to heart" and "comic party"). I am pretty sure Toei took huge risks for and they did rely on the already existing fanbase.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by hyl

You seem to be missing the point that back then, having an anime adaption of an eroge was very rare and almost unheard of. I am pretty sure Toei took huge risks for and they did rely on the already existing fanbase.

I'm not talking about the Toei Kanon. I'm talking about the much more commercially successful KyoAni Kanon. Given that the KyoAni Kanon was the much more commercially successful one, I thought it was clear it was the one I was talking about. However, perhaps I should have made that explicit. Sorry about that.