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Originally Posted by hero147
Lelouch could be dead, Lelouch could be alive. (Though, I am in favor of him being alive). In my point of view, evidence suggests that he is alive. Though there are plenty of opinions and speculations to why he is alive, I am going to name the one I think is most powerful. If he was indeed dead, why would CC say that "Geass making you isolated is "inaccurate?"" when she herself ended up alone because of Geass? Lelouch also somewhat ended up alone as well.
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So, I've just indulged in a second watching of the final episode. Here's something interesting:
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Originally Posted by convo
Lelouch: Hey, Suzaku. Don't wishes resemble Geass? ...Asking someone for something you can't achieve by yourself.
Suzaku: A wish, huh?
Lelouch: Yes. I'm under the affect of a Geass called the people's wish. For the sake of the future.
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Go watch that scene again, and tell me you can still say that Geass makes people lonely. For the sake of a new tomorrow, Lelouch took on this Geass of his own will. And in return, all the people who had known him, helped him, and touched his heart, bore his wish for him into the future.
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Though I do have doubts about how Lelouch got the code, I simply cannot see him as deceased, even if he had those shadows in his eyes. One thing to mention about those shadows under the eyes is that Everytime a character had them, it was because their bodies were probably close to dying. I said body...And remember immortals have almost the same body has mortals, they still bleed, so losing that amount of blood, Lelouch could also gain these "shadows". I think the only reason we never saw the immortals with shadows under their eyes was because all of the immortal deaths were quick and relatively painless.
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Anyway, regarding the eyebags again. You're right actually: there's actually one example of an immortal having dark eyebags resulting from bloodloss, and that's V.V. before his Code was taken, in the latter half of Turn 14. Here we've got another contradiction, however: in the case of heavy bloodloss resulting in a slow death, V.V., despite being wounded enough to die (as evidenced by the fact that he
did die once his Code was taken), nevertheless never lost consciousness or closed his eyes. Lelouch did. I can walk you through the logic if you like, but to put it simply, if an immortal is heavily injured, but it is not enough to make them lose consciousness initially--then, it is
impossible for them to lose consciousness as a result of that injury.
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Originally Posted by npal
Now, since most things have been said, I'll just add a few comments.
First of all, you seem to have a spectacular eyesight most people wouldn't dream of, cause for the life of me and having 20/20, I can't really imagine the old man with the whiskers in that vague screenshot. And I believe that goes for many other people around here, or you're saying everyone who believes that Lelouch is that farmer is 1)blind or 2) retarded enough to mistake an OBVIOUSLY OLD man with WHISKERS for an ambiguous driver whose details were left out... Permit me not to stand in awe at that assumption.
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No, I don't have spectacular eyesight. I don't treat my eyes well, so I could probably use some glasses, actually. What I do have, however, is the ability to watch a video, take a screenshot, and then zoom in. And for anybody who's bothered to do that as well, they have seen the very same thing. Seriously, someone even posted another screenshot in the romance thread. I've also shown evidence twice, and anybody can also go check for themselves. Although, from the sound of it, it seems that you may not have gotten the HD version, but nonetheless, it is
fact that the wagon driver's lower face is covered with white whiskers.
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Furthermore, the "unsophisticated" crowd... Now... who's that? The one's shouting "Lelouch is done, done, done/DEAD, corpse, finito" or the one's screaming "Lelouch is alive, alive you hear?!" You're donning the wrong mantle here. The way I see it, both sides have arguments. Some arguments like the Charles Code issue, even I can't agree upon, I consider it to be unfounded and even denied based on the facts at hand.
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Heh, I was just bouncing off wingdarkness's use of the term. Nonetheless, there is one common thread I've noticed coming from all the "Lelouch is ALIVE!"-ers: none of them can offer a thematic explanation for why he should live which is meaningful to either the story or his character. What I'm saying is that nobody seems to want Lelouch to be alive for any reason aside from finding it 'emo' or to ship him with C.C..
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If the ending was as firm as you think, the basic fact that so many people think otherwise (besides the ones who scream from both sides "If Lelouch is really alive/dead, this series is crap") should be at least a tiny bit troubling. Also, seeing as the core facts on which the discussion of whether Lelouch is alive or dead are ambiguous enough to cause different interpretations, what's the point of even discussing about it? Oh, yeah, I forgot, the other side is pretty stupid, right? We've all seen how firm this ending is, having caused this huge debate in the first place. Oh... right... The other side is just unsophisticated fanboys/girls... I guess that's why they didn't see the whiskers either.
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Indeed, it is troubling! Actually, with so much bullshit "Lelouch is alive" speculation being quoted from 4chan, my respect for /a/ has dropped dramatically. Nonetheless, the fact that so many of the people pushing or supporting this 'ambiguity' are the aforementioned shippers above allows me to go with my initial gut instinct conviction which has only grown stronger as discussion has progressed.
Anyway, mind stating which 'ambiguous' core facts those are? It is actually explicitly shown both that Codes activate immediately after receipt, not after death, and that the loss of Code results in lost memory, so that it is systematically impossible for Lelouch to have recieved one (at least from any previously known character).
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Having accepted that Code Geass DID have unclear or ambiguous parts, just what is it that forbids you to accept that the greatest debate of the series is based on ambiguous parts as well? Could it be a purely irrational preference that you have deemed is only a characteristic of that horrible other side? You know, the unsophisticated one?
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Actually, I've never really complained about Code Geass being ambiguous. All I've ever complained about was it being poorly written. Or sorry, were you trying to say that your above paragraphs proved Code Geass was ambiguous?
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The real point is that basing whatever arguments on ambiguity has little value or meaning anyway. So, what's left is up to the person, his interpretation and his belief. That multiple people in their need to prove their point create arguments that really aren't there (Charles), from otherwise solid facts, doesn't disprove the point that there's a core problem : some elements are for MANY people ambiguous enough to allow them to choose a different interpretation, until of course proven otherwise.
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Oh! You're talking about
those ambiguities...Sorry, they've so long been settled in my mind that I'd completely forgotten people were saying that. I presume you're talking about Nunally's supposed 'visions' and C.C.'s impossibly minor (seriously, I just watched the episode again just now, and it was even smaller than I'd remembered--jesus, talking with you people has gotten to me...it's the power of suggestion) tilt of the head? Sure, I guess it
could be possible for someone who was emotionally invested in Lelouch's survival to find those ambiguous on a first or shallow viewing, but no. Actually following dialogue and character development, along with paying attention to visual conventions within the show, immediately reveal the non-conspiracy theory interpretations to be superior.
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Would I have preferred an obvious and solid ending? I actually hate ambiguity, I'd rather have something solid, no matter how terrible it is. Ambiguity usually only helps the company in question further milking the merchandise if necessary. Did I get one? Not really. I got one that probably points to Lelouch really sacrificing himself to create a better place. But I have enough room to be able to believe otherwise, that in fact Lelouch does destroy and creates worlds, but does so as he always had, staging the right play for the people. Even if Lelouch did or did not know he had an ace up his sleeve after his execution, it's still his usual tactics, he sets the stage, pays the price (Lelouch always knew that prices had to be paid, but it's possibly the first time I can recall that it's the King and not a pawn who pays that price) and pulls the stunt, in this case disappearing from the world, possibly forever, and handing the same punishment to Suzaku, who must also disappear from the world and assume the identity of Zero until his death. So, how's that so terrible or so OOC that it just couldn't happen no matter what?
Everything from Karen to C.C's reaction easily fits both accounts. Karen believes Lelouch to be dead ANYWAY. For the world, Lelouch is dead ANYWAY. The ONLY reaction that can be intepreted differently is C.C.'s, since in reality, only she and Suzaku would know the whole truth in both scenarios.
In the end, based on ambiguous elements, people are free to choose what suits them most. Obviously, it's easy enough to counter something like "Charles Code" theory, but other than that, it's pretty open to interpretation. So, next time, instead of ending calling and/or implying that the other side is blind/retarded/unsophisticated/people who sprout "bullshit", you know... those terrible people, it'd be best to just relax and think it over. The universe will not die a horrible death if people as intelligent as you are allowed to believe in something different than what you believe. And yes, I'll say it again, since the core problem is ambiguity and lack of knowledge one way or another on various issues regarding Geass mechanics, it really is just a matter of belief.
And with this, I end my statements regarding Lelouch's death. And to those who remember me from the long and forgotten past (/looks around... Don't see many of you...but whatever...), I have returned ^^.
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Yeah, everything's a matter of belief. Some beliefs, though, a more strongly held; and some beliefs, though, are more substantiated. You've offered up your belief that it's all ambiguous with nothing but some ad populum to back it up. Given that you were actually totally wrong on the first point (because
indeed, that's not Lelouch) and you've offered no evidence as to why anything else is actually ambiguous, I don't even need to address the rest of your arguments. Though just to be nice: Yes, actually, Lelouch being alive
would be terrible: I've explained this before. Lelouch had always been a bit of a douchebag, but his death means he realized it and stopped. This interpretation is supported by the fact that Lelouch
did actually realize he'd been a douchebag (or, well, 'come to know himself', whatever) in 22. Lelouch just pretending to do that and lying, however, would launch his existing douchebaggery into the sky. That is a terrible,
terrible way to end a series. (Seriously though: "Those who shoot must be those who are prepared to get shot." He's not talking about hunting, kids. You seriously going to say that Lelouch spouted off some macho bullshit like that and then pranced away immortal ever after? That you want that? That you'd respect that?)
Artist
-.-"
in any case arthur is just there being a cat
