Higurashi Spoiler Discussion (for people who have read the clues/finished the series)

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by Sterling01

Spoiler for Eryops question:

The thing is that since that secret tea party between Beatrice and Bernkastel is hidden (meaning you have to do a lot to unlock it) and we only have 1 game to go by I can't really say for sure but I do think that Umineko's Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are playing a game of some sorts. Just like Beatrice is playing a game with Battler and co

This might also have something to do with the altered piece 52

Thanks for the clarification.

When you refer to an altered piece 52, do you mean what was posted here or a modified version of it found elsewhere?

I found that piece to be quite interesting. From it I gathered that Bernkastel can pretty much change the course of fate as she desires. This might explain something that I've been wondering about; namely the fact that no matter how late Dark Rika arrives in a world and possesses Rika's body, the local Rika has already taken quite a few actions that would require knowledge from previous worlds to accomplish (e.g. warn Akasaka, or convince Irie to use C103 on Satoko). You'd expect her to lack the foreknowledge to take these actions, since the version of Rika that holds that information is absent. However if Bernkastel can freely manipulate the course of events, then perhaps she was directly causing these Rikas to act in such a manner. I must admit that this is a pretty shaky theory, but I can't think of anything better that might explain how the Rikas of Minagoroshi-hen and Matsuribayashi-hen were able to display foreknowledge before the arrival of the century-old Rika in these worlds.

[Sterling01]

I re-edited my post with the Piece I was referring to and added some more comments.

Spoiler for Bernkastel:

Also in Umineko I'm not sure but I think that Bernkastel does not have Frederica in her name. So there might even be two different "Bernkastel" the one that's the 'witch' and is playing a game with 34 and the Frederica version which was created because of the world resets

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Eryops

Thanks for the clarification.

When you refer to an altered piece 52, do you mean what was posted here or a modified version of it found elsewhere?

I found that piece to be quite interesting. From it I gathered that Bernkastel can pretty much change the course of fate as she desires. This might explain something that I've been wondering about; namely the fact that no matter how late Dark Rika arrives in a world and possesses Rika's body, the local Rika has already taken quite a few actions that would require knowledge from previous worlds to accomplish (e.g. warn Akasaka, or convince Irie to use C103 on Satoko). You'd expect her to lack the foreknowledge to take these actions, since the version of Rika that holds that information is absent. However if Bernkastel can freely manipulate the course of events, then perhaps she was directly causing these Rikas to act in such a manner. I must admit that this is a pretty shaky theory, but I can't think of anything better that might explain how the Rikas of Minagoroshi-hen and Matsuribayashi-hen were able to display foreknowledge before the arrival of the century-old Rika in these worlds.

I think these are set events
The knowledge doesn't come together with the "body-possession" (it would be strange for Rika be a normal girl and all of a sudden a bunch of info is incorporated into her)
They are always there after the first reboot.
Just think of the "body possession" (beggining of each world) as a kind of "update" of info from the last world but erasing the previous info of that world (that's why Rika never knows what day she is in, what she was playing with her friends)
As Hanyuu's powers get weaker, the "update" comes later

That's how I imagine it


well
whatever

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

I think these are set events
The knowledge doesn't come together with the "body-possession" (it would be strange for Rika be a normal girl and all of a sudden a bunch of info is incorporated into her)
They are always there after the first reboot.
Just think of the "body possession" (beggining of each world) as a kind of "update" of info from the last world but erasing the previous info of that world (that's why Rika never knows what day she is in, what she was playing with her friends)
As Hanyuu's powers get weaker, the "update" comes later

That's how I imagine it


well
whatever

The reason I though of it that way is because Dark Rika tells Rena during their encounter at the landfill in Tsumihoboroshi-hen that she isn't Rika. Based on that I had assumed that she viewed the Rika before her arrival to be distinct enough as to consider her a different person entirely. Since memories shape one's personality, an absence of memories from past worlds in the previous Rika would explain why Dark Rika would think of her in that way. Of course the fact that the previous Rika has foreknowledge of future events and acts like Dark Rika at times does cast serious doubt on this theory.

Also, I think that when Rika arrives in a world she incorporates the local Rika's memories into her own. After all, Rika does remember that she was playing with her friends at the start of Minagoroshi-hen. I'd say that her difficulty with remembering the date might be because it's hard for her to remember from which world each memory originates, which is why for example she doesn't immediately realize that Akasaka's wife is alive in Minagoroshi-hen.

[Rias]

When combined with Umineko's Frederica, I think it works somewhat like this:

Spoiler for Saikoroshi-hen + Umineko Tea Party:

There are 3 layers to the worlds.

<Frederica Bernkastel/LambaDelta/Beatrice> Creator Layer
<Furederika Bernkastel (Revealed in Saikoroshi-hen)> Player Layer
<Rika, Hanyuu, Rest of the cast> Stage Layer

*Furederika Bernkastel is not the same as Frederica Berkastel

At the start of every world, Furederika Berkastel will add in her combined memories and experiences from the worlds before, and add in the elements of Kakera Musubi (where Hanyuu used to be, outside the stage. All that is bestow onto Rika, which creates her "dark" persona. At the end of each world, Rika's memories and experiences of her world will be added back to Furederika Berkastel's memory pool. Cycle goes on and on.

Also, at each world, Frederica Berkastel observes what happens and also learns from each experience from both Furederika and Rika. She also creates more and more worlds as she battles with LD, who has the power to kill a person "for sure". Frederica cannot do anything to the bottom 2 layers, but she can create new pieces/TIPS, which can be useful for Furederika.

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by Rias

When combined with Umineko's Frederica, I think it works somewhat like this:

Spoiler for Saikoroshi-hen + Umineko Tea Party:

There are 3 layers to the worlds.

<Frederica Bernkastel/LambaDelta/Beatrice> Creator Layer
<Furederika Bernkastel (Revealed in Saikoroshi-hen)> Player Layer
<Rika, Hanyuu, Rest of the cast> Stage Layer

*Furederika Bernkastel is not the same as Frederica Berkastel

At the start of every world, Furederika Berkastel will add in her combined memories and experiences from the worlds before, and add in the elements of Kakera Musubi (where Hanyuu used to be, outside the stage. All that is bestow onto Rika, which creates her "dark" persona. At the end of each world, Rika's memories and experiences of her world will be added back to Furederika Berkastel's memory pool. Cycle goes on and on.

Also, at each world, Frederica Berkastel observes what happens and also learns from each experience from both Furederika and Rika. She also creates more and more worlds as she battles with LD, who has the power to kill a person "for sure". Frederica cannot do anything to the bottom 2 layers, but she can create new pieces/TIPS, which can be useful for Furederika.

I think that this interpretation makes sense. It seems that the Rika of every world is a separate person and that it's only memories that get transfered to Frederica (who is also a separate being) and from there to the Rika of the next world. I draw this from the fact that Hanyuu refers to the Rika from Minagoroshi-hen as if she were a different person from the Rika of Matsurayashi-hen, calling her "the Rika of the previous world" rather than "you". Also, that would explain why Rika's ghost is present in Yoigoroshi-hen; you'd expect it to be absent if Rika's soul had moved to a different world.

Spoiler for Umineko Tea Party:

PS: Isn't Bernkastel only called "Bernkastel" in Umineko rather than "Frederika Bernkastel"? Perhaps a simpler way of calling these three beings would be Bernkastel (for the witch), Frederika (for the Rika hivemind) and Rika (for the Rika in every world).

[kingsky123]

Originally Posted by Rias

When combined with Umineko's Frederica, I think it works somewhat like this:

Spoiler for Saikoroshi-hen + Umineko Tea Party:

There are 3 layers to the worlds.

<Frederica Bernkastel/LambaDelta/Beatrice> Creator Layer
<Furederika Bernkastel (Revealed in Saikoroshi-hen)> Player Layer
<Rika, Hanyuu, Rest of the cast> Stage Layer

*Furederika Bernkastel is not the same as Frederica Berkastel

At the start of every world, Furederika Berkastel will add in her combined memories and experiences from the worlds before, and add in the elements of Kakera Musubi (where Hanyuu used to be, outside the stage. All that is bestow onto Rika, which creates her "dark" persona. At the end of each world, Rika's memories and experiences of her world will be added back to Furederika Berkastel's memory pool. Cycle goes on and on.

Also, at each world, Frederica Berkastel observes what happens and also learns from each experience from both Furederika and Rika. She also creates more and more worlds as she battles with LD, who has the power to kill a person "for sure". Frederica cannot do anything to the bottom 2 layers, but she can create new pieces/TIPS, which can be useful for Furederika.

lol, this theory makes sense but i find it really funny no idea why. :P i keep thinking theres gonna be something retarded like

<xxx layer/> because ryukishi's paycheck comes from it >

[Sterling01]

Spoiler for Umineko Tea Party:

Also in the Tea Party Bernkastel I think refers to the fact that she once had a human body. So she might just be a "Rika" that branched off during the 100 years of resets.

Also I know what LD's and Bernkastel's powers are but I don't understand what Beatrice's powers are. Is she able to have any outcome she wants?

[theacefrehley]

For Beatrice

Bernkastel says:

「……１人を“無限に”殺す力。
…私は貴女の方が恐ろしいけれども。」

She has the power of killing 1 person "limitlessly"/"infinitely"

I don't know if I'm undestanding wrong, but I think it means she can kill 1 person using "infinite" methods (that's what we see in umineko)

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Rias

When combined with Umineko's Frederica, I think it works somewhat like this:

Spoiler for Saikoroshi-hen + Umineko Tea Party:

There are 3 layers to the worlds.

<Frederica Bernkastel/LambaDelta/Beatrice> Creator Layer
<Furederika Bernkastel (Revealed in Saikoroshi-hen)> Player Layer
<Rika, Hanyuu, Rest of the cast> Stage Layer

*Furederika Bernkastel is not the same as Frederica Berkastel

At the start of every world, Furederika Berkastel will add in her combined memories and experiences from the worlds before, and add in the elements of Kakera Musubi (where Hanyuu used to be, outside the stage. All that is bestow onto Rika, which creates her "dark" persona. At the end of each world, Rika's memories and experiences of her world will be added back to Furederika Berkastel's memory pool. Cycle goes on and on.

Also, at each world, Frederica Berkastel observes what happens and also learns from each experience from both Furederika and Rika. She also creates more and more worlds as she battles with LD, who has the power to kill a person "for sure". Frederica cannot do anything to the bottom 2 layers, but she can create new pieces/TIPS, which can be useful for Furederika.

I think of them all as just 2
The Rika in the human world, let's say just Rika
And the Hivemind Rika (Frederika Bernkastel)

They also mention in the tips of umineko that Bernkastel has 1000 years

To me, it works like this
Frederika Bernkastel was born out of Rika's journey, the reboots
She observed Rika for 100 years, observed her beat June of 1983. Her power would be pick the pieces to Rika be reborn in.
With Rika's happy ending, Bernkastel remained in the world of the pieces and decided to wander around for 900 years (well, that place is outside space and time) peeping in the infinite pieces to kill time and boredom until she met Beato.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

For Beatrice

Bernkastel says:

「……１人を“無限に”殺す力。
…私は貴女の方が恐ろしいけれども。」

She has the power of killing 1 person "limitlessly"/"infinitely"

I don't know if I'm undestanding wrong, but I think it means she can kill 1 person using "infinite" methods (that's what we see in umineko)

Spoiler for umineko tea party:

I think you are talking about this quote, but isn't this quote refering to LamdaDelta?

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Rias

Spoiler for umineko tea party:

I think you are talking about this quote, but isn't this quote refering to LamdaDelta?

What you posted is indeed about lambda delta but it's not what I posted

Mine comes right after


Beatrice: 「しかしそなたは、“ゼロでない限り”必ず成就させる力を持つ。
……この世に“必ず”は存在しないとのたまう卿ご自身が、“必ず”の力をお持ちでおられる。
……恐ろしい恐ろしい、くっくっく…！」
Bernkastel: 「……１人を“無限に”殺す力。
…私は貴女の方が恐ろしいけれども。」

[FateAnomaly]

I don't quite understand. The big not Rika person at the end changed the past? So none of the stuff will happen? Can someone explain it more clearly to me, thanks.

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by FateAnomaly

I don't quite understand. The big not Rika person at the end changed the past? So none of the stuff will happen? Can someone explain it more clearly to me, thanks.

Spoiler for Part C:

Frederica Bernkastel is a "witch" that is playing a game with another "witch" who is called Lambdadelta. Since Rika was able to beat Takano. Bernkastel started another game with Lambdadelta by setting up a "Sinless World" to keep the both of them from getting bored.

Bernkastel really only thinks of Keiichi and the rest as pieces that she created for her game with Lambdadelta.

Rika's Dark side could be called Furederika Bernkastel which is the collected conscious of all the Rikas from the 100 years of world resets

In simple terms Frederica Bernkastel/LambaDelta/Beatrice are basically just the "creators"

[iczelion74]

Originally Posted by Sterling01

Spoiler for Part C:

Frederica Bernkastel is a "witch" that is playing a game with another "witch" who is called Lambdadelta. Since Rika was able to beat Takano. Bernkastel started another game with Lambdadelta by setting up a "Sinless World" to keep the both of them from getting bored.

Bernkastel really only thinks of Keiichi and the rest as pieces that she created for her game with Lambdadelta.

Rika's Dark side could be called Furederika Bernkastel which is the collected conscious of all the Rikas from the 100 years of world resets

In simple terms Frederica Bernkastel/LambaDelta/Beatrice are basically just the "creators"

Which arc(s) does this storyline occur in?

[BakaOnna]

Originally Posted by Sterling01

Spoiler for Part C:

Frederica Bernkastel is a "witch" that is playing a game with another "witch" who is called Lambdadelta. Since Rika was able to beat Takano. Bernkastel started another game with Lambdadelta by setting up a "Sinless World" to keep the both of them from getting bored.

Bernkastel really only thinks of Keiichi and the rest as pieces that she created for her game with Lambdadelta.

Rika's Dark side could be called Furederika Bernkastel which is the collected conscious of all the Rikas from the 100 years of world resets

In simple terms Frederica Bernkastel/LambaDelta/Beatrice are basically just the "creators"

Is this what was revealed in Umineko? It kinda destroys the impact of everything that happened in Higurashi. Everything was just a "game" for these two bored "world creators"?

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by iczelion74

Which arc(s) does this storyline occur in?

Spoiler for The Arcs:

The Sinless World occurs in Saikoroshi-hen
The Reveal that everything in Higurashi might have been a "game" occurs in Umineko
That fact there is Frederica Bernkastel and also Furederika Bernkastel is revealed in Saikoroshi-hen
Beatrice is the Golden Witch in Umineko

[MarthX]

You really shouldn't take what you hear in the first chapter of Umineko with face value.

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by MarthX

You really shouldn't take what you hear in the first chapter of Umineko with face value.

These are just theories based on facts from Bernkastel and Beatrice's Tea Party, the altered piece 52 and Saikoroshi-hen

Originally Posted by FateAnomaly

So its not over yet?

Well there wouldn't be a need for a season 3 if it was

[rinjichan]

I just watched the last episode of the anime, and after things wrap up there's a small epilogue. I was told that it was supposed to relate to Saikoroshi-hen but I'm really not sure how

Spoiler:

. An aged Rika seems to travel back in time again and visit Takano as a child. Takano gets on the bus with her parents, the bus driver still has the heart attack, yet at the end everyone is alive and it seems Takano's parents didn't die. Is this supposed to be a set-up for Saikoroshi-hen, and cause the perfect world instead of the game's version of it being Rika in a coma? If the bus driver still had the heart attack why did everyone live?