Higurashi Spoiler Discussion (for people who have read the clues/finished the series)

[Klashikari]

they are a LOT of things that are terribly wrong in that diagram:
1) they are NOT in a successive type of branch. It isn't because keiichi remembers something or not that the world will go to X or Y chapter
2) Events are NOT happening all the time. The diagram implies that the gang has the doll event all the time, and if one doesn't want to end in Watanagashi/Meakashi, Keiichi must give the doll to Mion.
This is wrong, as Rika demonstrated in Minagoroshi that Keiichi during this event, NEVER gave the doll to Mion. Hence, that would mean that any non onikakushi chapter must be Watanagashi/Meakashi before Minagoroshi, which is false.
3) Rina is always with Rena's dad, that's why in any chapter, Rena is going in the trash yard. The only thing is that Rina is just too greedy and hang around many targets.

So many wrongs in that, it is hardly possible to take it seriously.

[Rias]

The diagram only makes some sense if you consider the way the PS2 game is presented. Yes, events can kinda of be put in a linear fashion like that, but a lot of the descriptions/comments are wrong. And if you apply it to the PC game/manga/anime, then it's dead wrong.

Kinda lazy to point out all the wrong points, so I'll just point out some:
-As Klashikari pointed out, Keiichi remembering events aren't the triggers to avoid or enter a certain arc. For example, Keiichi does not have to remember the past to give the doll to Mion, as shown in Minagoroshi-hen. Remembering the past also isn't a trigger to enter Yoigoroshi-hen, as the requirment should be "can Keiichi stop the timed bomb"

-Also, Keiichi not showing up is not necessarily a bad end, provided Rule XYZ isn't in place.

-Solving Teppei's return isn't the only way to survial, as long as we have Matsuribayashi-hen.

-Saikoroshi-hen isn't presented by Frederica Berkenstel.

-If you must branch out all the possibilities, then it's missing alot of branches. For example, what about the world where Rika deals with Teppei herself?

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Rias

-Also, Keiichi not showing up is not necessarily a bad end, provided Rule XYZ isn't in place.

-Solving Teppei's return isn't the only way to survial, as long as we have Matsuribayashi-hen.

-Saikoroshi-hen isn't presented by Frederica Berkenstel.

-If you must branch out all the possibilities, then it's missing alot of branches. For example, what about the world where Rika deals with Teppei herself?

1. Rika said than the Hinamizawa(s?) where Keichii were abscent were so boring, if I remember well well, she said than his abscence was the worse factor . Remember than Rules XYZ are always here, so unless it Matsuribayashi/Miotsukushi it alwasys BAD end.

2.Dealing with Teppei only affect Rule X, not Rule Y.

3. I don't know saikoroshi, so I can't write about it.

4 It lack branch and it got too much error (how much time will we need to say than Takano did not shoot Hanyuu in Miotsukushi-hen)
Anyone than did that graphic seem to have used wikipedia for the PS2 only chapter.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

1. Rika said than the Hinamizawa(s?) where Keichii were abscent were so boring, if I remember well well, she said than his abscence was the worse factor . Remember than Rules XYZ are always here, so unless it Matsuribayashi/Miotsukushi it alwasys BAD end.

2.Dealing with Teppei only affect Rule X, not Rule Y.

3. I don't know saikoroshi, so I can't write about it.

4 It lack branch and it got too much error (how much time will we need to say than Takano did not shoot Hanyuu in Miotsukushi-hen)
Anyone than did that graphic seem to have used wikipedia for the PS2 only chapter.

1. Rules XYZ was in Miotsukushi-hen and it's not present in Saikoroshi-hen. Keiichi also doesn't show up in Saikoroshi-hen. Is Saikoroshi-hen the worst world? Hardly.

2. You don't need to deal with Teppei (in a sense, to rally the whole village together) to get the perfect ending, as shown in Matsuribayashi-hen.

[gibits]

Super n00b question, but why did Takano want to destroy the village? The disease that she wanted to study was only found in the village, and hence the only place she could research it.

My personal theories are that maybe she wanted this to be a national event so that so would crave her name (and her grandfather's) into history, hence become a god.

Or she meant it becoming a god in a literal sense. Like using the injection to manipulate people into worshiping her. This doesn't seem likely since the parasite itself is not prone to mass distribution. It can only take effect in very specific conditions. Did she found a way to bypass that?

Sorry if this has been asked before but I didn't understand the answer that was given in "questions answered" thread or in the anime. Help appreciated.

[Klashikari]

the destruction of the village has a lot of purpose:
-It proves that there isn't any other way and high ups have to admit Dr. Takano's theory
-It fulfills the "god" wish that Dr. Takano passed to Mio

The principal effect of it is that she will have a undeniable theory: nothing to stand against, and her theory pretty much resorted to the extreme, but in the same time, it "saves" the whole country against that "parasite".

She absolutely doesn't care much about the syndrome itself, though they can already research on it, even if Hinamizawa is wiped of the surface of earth (as implied by Nomura, who prepared a lab for her etc)

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

the destruction of the village has a lot of purpose:
-It proves that there isn't any other way and high ups have to admit Dr. Takano's theory
-It fulfills the "god" wish that Dr. Takano passed to Mio

The principal effect of it is that she will have a undeniable theory: nothing to stand against, and her theory pretty much resorted to the extreme, but in the same time, it "saves" the whole country against that "parasite".

She absolutely doesn't care much about the syndrome itself, though they can already research on it, even if Hinamizawa is wiped of the surface of earth (as implied by Nomura, who prepared a lab for her etc)

I don't think that Takano is trying to prove Hifumi's theory by gassing the village. After all, she kills everyone without them going crazy so that doesn't provide any evidence that it was right. All Takano is trying to do is to lash out at the people she thinks were responsible for binning her grandfather's research. By forcing them to order the extermination of the village, these people will lose much of their influence or be forced to resign. Nomura is simply manipulating Takano so that she can help the faction she serves gain more power by weakening the opposing faction; Takano understands that, but that's the only way she can think of to have her revenge against the people who hurt her grandpa.

In the end, Takano's sole motivation was to vindicate her grandfather. She only pursued her research in order to accomplish that. Since it failed, she had no qualms about abandoning it and trying to have her revenge by gassing the village instead.

And Hifumi wasn't being literal when he talked about gods; he simply meant that by making an important discovery one would be remembered by future generations. Gassing the village doesn't accomplish that either (especially since nobody would ever know why the death of everyone in the village occured).

[Eryops]

By the way, there was something I was wondering about. In Higurashi there are two cover stories for the events in Hinamizawa; one for the general public and one for the Tokyo members that don't belong to the faction Nomura serves. The one aimed at the general public leaves all the murders unexplained/attributes them to the Sonozakis and Rika's murder is blamed on religious fanatics. The Great Hinamizawa Disaster is blamed on a volcanic eruption.

The cover story aimed at Tokyo members leaves most murders unexplained, however it states that Tomitake and Takano discovered that Irie had embezzled a huge amount of money from the Irie Institution. Irie had them murdered because of that discovery but then couldn't handle the pressure/realized he was discovered and used drugs to commit suicide. After Rika's death the Great Hinamizawa Disaster occurs because the Yamainu gas the village. Does anyone know who gets blamed for Rika's disembowelment in this scenario, or is that left unexplained? Furthermore, is my summary accurate?

Also, I think that Nomura has Takano killed after Takano gasses the village. After all, setting up an entire research facility for Takano would cost quite a bit of money. Takano was previously able to get that money from Koizumi because the latter felt guilty for abandoning Hifumi, but there's no evidence that Nomura has either access to or the desire to spend such funds. Furthermore, if Takano is considered to be dead as part of Nomura's cover story to the opposing faction in Tokyo, then having her pop up alive and well later (which would be inevitable if she got a position as prominent as the head of her own facility), would allow them to realize that they'd been tricked and that the Hinamizawa incident was a ploy to allow their political enemies to gain power. Also, Takano is a key witness; if for some reason she decided to talk (e.g. after being captured by the opposing faction after they discover she's still alive), then she'd be able to lay the blame for the murder of 2000 civilians on both Nomura and her entire faction. Since Takano is already legally dead, Nomura wouldn't even have her men stage it so as to seem an accident or suicide; all she'd need is to have her killed and dispose the body somewhere where it wouldn't be found. By doing that, she'd eliminate the key witness that could implicate her, remove any chance of someone discovering that Takano was still alive after her supposed death and also would not have to spend vast sums to fulfill the promises she made to her. What do people think of this theory?

[Dreamiel]

Originally Posted by Eryops

Also, I think that Nomura has Takano killed after Takano gasses the village. After all, setting up an entire research facility for Takano would cost quite a bit of money. Takano was previously able to get that money from Koizumi because the latter felt guilty for abandoning Hifumi, but there's no evidence that Nomura has either access to or the desire to spend such funds. Furthermore, if Takano is considered to be dead as part of Nomura's cover story to the opposing faction in Tokyo, then having her pop up alive and well later (which would be inevitable if she got a position as prominent as the head of her own facility), would allow them to realize that they'd been tricked and that the Hinamizawa incident was a ploy to allow their political enemies to gain power. Also, Takano is a key witness; if for some reason she decided to talk (e.g. after being captured by the opposing faction after they discover she's still alive), then she'd be able to lay the blame for the murder of 2000 civilians on both Nomura and her entire faction. Since Takano is already legally dead, Nomura wouldn't even have her men stage it so as to seem an accident or suicide; all she'd need is to have her killed and dispose the body somewhere where it wouldn't be found. By doing that, she'd eliminate the key witness that could implicate her, remove any chance of someone discovering that Takano was still alive after her supposed death and also would not have to spend vast sums to fulfill the promises she made to her. What do people think of this theory?

I think it makes sense, nice thinking

[Ithekro]

Considering the state Takano was in both times we see her at the end, I figure she would have only lived a few days at best. She looked to be heading rather quickly to L5 stage. Either she would have killed herself ("throat itches") or one of her men would have taken her down...seeing that she is going crazy.

There is the off chance she went to a hospital, but without the clinic and with people looking for a coverup, she'd die there one way or another.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Eryops

I don't think that Takano is trying to prove Hifumi's theory by gassing the village. After all, she kills everyone without them going crazy so that doesn't provide any evidence that it was right. All Takano is trying to do is to lash out at the people she thinks were responsible for binning her grandfather's research. By forcing them to order the extermination of the village, these people will lose much of their influence or be forced to resign. Nomura is simply manipulating Takano so that she can help the faction she serves gain more power by weakening the opposing faction; Takano understands that, but that's the only way she can think of to have her revenge against the people who hurt her grandpa.

In the end, Takano's sole motivation was to vindicate her grandfather. She only pursued her research in order to accomplish that. Since it failed, she had no qualms about abandoning it and trying to have her revenge by gassing the village instead.

That's that, I guess my wording was quite poor here. Actually, the simple fact that the gassing is required just equal to the point that the higher ups are forced to realize their "mistake", and then, as extended result, not only there is some aknowledgement (which was already half way here) but also, as you say, a very severe consequence on the Alphabet project party, which is as well her revenge.

And Hifumi wasn't being literal when he talked about gods; he simply meant that by making an important discovery one would be remembered by future generations. Gassing the village doesn't accomplish that either (especially since nobody would ever know why the death of everyone in the village occured).

That's true, the thing is that Takano just doesn't care much of whatever would happen. Furthermore, her death was mystified as a prophetic entity which most likely pleased her even more. The whole deal with god and fear is actually how her twisted mind turned Hifumi's plea. She doesn't need to be recognized publicly, the sole disaster is self satisfying for her.

Originally Posted by Eryops

Does anyone know who gets blamed for Rika's disembowelment in this scenario, or is that left unexplained? Furthermore, is my summary accurate?

As far as we can get, there wasn't any explanation for Rika's murder, and it was the point that Akasaka and Ooishi needed years later to understand the whole deal.

Also, I think that Nomura has Takano killed after Takano gasses the village. After all, setting up an entire research facility for Takano would cost quite a bit of money. Takano was previously able to get that money from Koizumi because the latter felt guilty for abandoning Hifumi, but there's no evidence that Nomura has either access to or the desire to spend such funds.

As the project was possible, it is pretty much evident that Nomura didn't care at all of the research, yes. She basically used false promise to seduce takano in this scheme.

Furthermore, if Takano is considered to be dead as part of Nomura's cover story to the opposing faction in Tokyo, then having her pop up alive and well later (which would be inevitable if she got a position as prominent as the head of her own facility), would allow them to realize that they'd been tricked and that the Hinamizawa incident was a ploy to allow their political enemies to gain power. Also, Takano is a key witness; if for some reason she decided to talk (e.g. after being captured by the opposing faction after they discover she's still alive), then she'd be able to lay the blame for the murder of 2000 civilians on both Nomura and her entire faction. Since Takano is already legally dead, Nomura wouldn't even have her men stage it so as to seem an accident or suicide; all she'd need is to have her killed and dispose the body somewhere where it wouldn't be found. By doing that, she'd eliminate the key witness that could implicate her, remove any chance of someone discovering that Takano was still alive after her supposed death and also would not have to spend vast sums to fulfill the promises she made to her. What do people think of this theory?

The problem is that I'm not even sure if Takano is considered "dead" by Tokyo: she is leading the Yamainu and the SDF in Hinamizawa, so it would be rather awkward for her to be considered dead, despite she is on the field.

[Ithekro]

Of course there is another odd question involved here. Why is the situation changed for the times Mi/Shion kill Rika. The village is not killed in these arcs to our knowledge. Thus the question is, what became of Takano and her plans? Obviously the "queen" is dead thus the research will end in any event, but the towns folk don't go crazy with the queen gone. What does this say about Takano's theories?

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Considering the state Takano was in both times we see her at the end, I figure she would have only lived a few days at best. She looked to be heading rather quickly to L5 stage. Either she would have killed herself ("throat itches") or one of her men would have taken her down...seeing that she is going crazy.

There is the off chance she went to a hospital, but without the clinic and with people looking for a coverup, she'd die there one way or another.

However, in the game they have never shown that Takano was affected by the syndrome. Not only that, being one of the researchers, you would expect tht she is protected against the syndrome like the others, such as Irie or Tomitake (except his last visit). If she wasn't protected and had a breakdown, she would've exhibited symptoms on the night she met Nomura.

It's becuase of that, and the fact that she escaped from the clinic days after the operation in Matsuribayashi-hen, that people speculate that Tomitake only used the syndrome as an excuse to save her.

In my opinion, the syndrome isn't useful, even with Takano's wrong theories about the queen carrier, to be used in warfare. I think regardless the outcome, the research project will be terminated (deadline set by nomura). As to Takano's fate, there's a good chance that she would be disposed off afterwards by Nomura/Yamainu; even higher chance when she failed in Wata/Mea. In nature, we sometimes see a "baby bird" gets kicked off by a "cuckoo", only to be eaten by "mountain dogs" .

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

As far as we can get, there wasn't any explanation for Rika's murder, and it was the point that Akasaka and Ooishi needed years later to understand the whole deal.

I was wondering if an explanation was provided to Tokyo for her death, such as pinning it on Irie. Though considering the fact Rika is killed after Irie, that probably wouldn't do that.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

As the project was possible, it is pretty much evident that Nomura didn't care at all of the research, yes. She basically used false promise to seduce takano in this scheme. The problem is that I'm not even sure if Takano is considered "dead" by Tokyo: she is leading the Yamainu and the SDF in Hinamizawa, so it would be rather awkward for her to be considered dead, despite she is on the field.

Doesn't Nomura use Takano's and Tomitake's deaths to discredit Irie and bring suspicion upon the Irie Institution so that Irie won't be able to interfere before he is assassinated? (Though he doesn't try to do so because he trusts Okonogi.) Perhaps the members of Tokyo not in on the conspiracy were made to think that Okonogi was directly acting upon the orders from Tokyo to gas the village.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Of course there is another odd question involved here. Why is the situation changed for the times Mi/Shion kill Rika. The village is not killed in these arcs to our knowledge. Thus the question is, what became of Takano and her plans? Obviously the "queen" is dead thus the research will end in any event, but the towns folk don't go crazy with the queen gone. What does this say about Takano's theories?

Presumably something similar to Matsuribayashi-hen takes place. Takano reacts with disbelief at the idea that her beloved grandfather's theories are incorrect. The stress may well lead her to go L5. Nomura realizes that Takano is useless to her now that the Carrier Queen theory has been disproved and can't be used to damage the Koizumi faction. Presumably she then orders Okonogi to eliminate her just as she does in Matsuribayashi-hen after Takano becomes a liability. If Takano is killed, perhaps they can stick to their original of pretending that Irie murdered both Takano and Tomitake and avoid any closer scrutiny to their plan to gas the village.

Originally Posted by Rias

However, in the game they have never shown that Takano was affected by the syndrome. Not only that, being one of the researchers, you would expect tht she is protected against the syndrome like the others, such as Irie or Tomitake (except his last visit). If she wasn't protected and had a breakdown, she would've exhibited symptoms on the night she met Nomura.

It's becuase of that, and the fact that she escaped from the clinic days after the operation in Matsuribayashi-hen, that people speculate that Tomitake only used the syndrome as an excuse to save her.

In the anime Takano is quite blatantly suffering from the syndrome in Matsuribayashi-hen. Since that doesn't conflict with the game, I'm guessing that she really gets it. Though I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't progress in the worlds where her plan succeeds; in Matsuribayashi-hen after all she only develops symptoms after her plan fails completely and Okonogi asks her to kill herself.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Eryops

...In the anime Takano is quite blatantly suffering from the syndrome in Matsuribayashi-hen. Since that doesn't conflict with the game, I'm guessing that she really gets it. Though I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't progress in the worlds where her plan succeeds; in Matsuribayashi-hen after all she only develops symptoms after her plan fails completely and Okonogi asks her to kill herself.

I wonder about how much it is true than Okonogi ask Takano to kill herself, after all, every one under a high level of the the Hinamizawa Syndrome did imagine/misunderstand/overthink about what happen around them. Maybe Okonogi did only ask her to chose the way she will end, or to take care of her dirty work herself ?

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

I wonder about how much it is true than Okonogi ask Takano to kill herself, after all, every one under a high level of the the Hinamizawa Syndrome did imagine/misunderstand/overthink about what happen around them. Maybe Okonogi did only ask her to chose the way she will end, or to take care of her dirty work herself ?

I don't think that scene was from Takano's perspective. After all, we see Okonogi saying that he's being to soft to her after Takano has already ran off. And it makes sense for him and Nomura to want her dead, since that way they'd be able to lay the blame for the entire incident on her and she wouldn't be able to contradict them.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Eryops

In the anime Takano is quite blatantly suffering from the syndrome in Matsuribayashi-hen. Since that doesn't conflict with the game, I'm guessing that she really gets it. Though I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't progress in the worlds where her plan succeeds; in Matsuribayashi-hen after all she only develops symptoms after her plan fails completely and Okonogi asks her to kill herself.

I don't take these anime-original content seriously, even for season 2. For example, the way the Tanashi couple survived in the hidden-ED of the anime is impossible in the game. (In game)Even at the scene where Okonogi revealed that it was Nomura who were actually pulling all the strings, she was only shown to be really surprised and tried to salvage the situation franticly. She didn't hear voices or hallucinate or become paranoid of people trying to get her (okay except Okonogi, who told him that he was supposed to do the job, or the group members, who has been battling her throughout) If she was really L5 at that time, I doubt she would've accepted Tomitake's help right away (at least put up a fight for a bit like Rena did in Tsumihoroboshi-hen)

The way I see it, Okonogi telling Takano to suicide at the end can seen as his sense of loyalty towards Takano (sure he was bribed, but his loyalty can seen throughout the series. Only a couple times, such as prolonging the fight with Akasaka and challenging Mion to a fight, that he did things that he wanted to personaly do). One could say that perhaps he didn't want to dirty his own hands, but seeing how he was acting when Baninu showed up, you can tell he was trying work things out legally by cooperating. Knowing that Takano, the "mastermind" would probably be killed by Nomura/Tokyo, I think it's rational for him to give Takano a choice. After all, he also fired the warning shot to get Takano to run away when she was being undecisive.

[gibits]

Originally Posted by Rias

However, in the game they have never shown that Takano was affected by the syndrome. Not only that, being one of the researchers, you would expect tht she is protected against the syndrome like the others, such as Irie or Tomitake (except his last visit). If she wasn't protected and had a breakdown, she would've exhibited symptoms on the night she met Nomura.

It's becuase of that, and the fact that she escaped from the clinic days after the operation in Matsuribayashi-hen, that people speculate that Tomitake only used the syndrome as an excuse to save her.

Are oncologists immune from cancer? Are family doctors immune from the flu? Are stock brokers immune from bankruptcy? To say she was a researcher and hence automatically immune is illogical. It is plainly stated that if you stay in the village for prolonged periods of time you are infected (or colonized) by the parasite. The disease itself does not manifest until levels of extreme emotional stress is reached. It makes perfect sense that she was infected along with everyone else (including her goons), and when she had lost the disease broke through.
Even without the disease, its clear she's batshit crazy. Just going that far to validate a theory is delusion on a grand scale, she belongs in a crazy house no matter how you slice it.

In my opinion, the syndrome isn't useful, even with Takano's wrong theories about the queen carrier, to be used in warfare.

If restrictions on locale can be overcome then this would be the ultimate form of biological warfare. Untraceable (no need to worry about human rights restrictions), controllable (if the queen theory was correct), and potent (esp in a stressful situation like war). If this existed IRL it would be researched and weaponized in a heartbeat. The USA was willing to look into outlandish ideas like the "gay bomb", you think they would pass up the chance to cause mass psychosis?


On a side note: I guess Rika saving Tanako's parents isn't canon, but it was a nice touch. If it wasn't for that tragedy maybe Tanako wouldn't be the crazy bitch she turned out to be.

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by gibits

Are oncologists immune from cancer? Are family doctors immune from the flu? Are stock brokers immune from bankruptcy? To say she was a researcher and hence automatically immune is illogical. It is plainly stated that if you stay in the village for prolonged periods of time you are infected (or colonized) by the parasite. The disease itself does not manifest until levels of extreme emotional stress is reached. It makes perfect sense that she was infected along with everyone else (including her goons), and when she had lost the disease broke through.
Even without the disease, its clear she's batshit crazy. Just going that far to validate a theory is delusion on a grand scale, she belongs in a crazy house no matter how you slice it.

They have developed a prophylactic medicine for the disease. Takano actually sends Tomitake a fake version of it before his latest visit so that he can be susceptible to the pathogen. Irie is truly shocked upon discovering that Tomitake has gone L5 precisely because he ought to be immune. But then again the prophylactic medicine might only apply to people that had never been exposed to the disease in the fist place. Takano would have had to visit Hinamizawa, and thus become infected, before the development of that treatment. Or perhaps the treatment does work but simply hasn't been perfected yet, which means that Takano goes L5 when subjected to sufficient stress anyway.

Originally Posted by gibits

If restrictions on locale can be overcome then this would be the ultimate form of biological warfare. Untraceable (no need to worry about human rights restrictions), controllable (if the queen theory was correct), and potent (esp in a stressful situation like war). If this existed IRL it would be researched and weaponized in a heartbeat. The USA was willing to look into outlandish ideas like the "gay bomb", you think they would pass up the chance to cause mass psychosis?

Yes. The idea was to weaponize the pathogen and use it to infect the enemy. Then at war you could simply spread the chemical that induces development of L5 and the enemy population would go insane and kill itself. The advantage of such a weapon is that the chemical itself would be completely harmless to your own, uninfected, troops and civilian population, which would negate the main disadvantage of biological weapons, namely the fact that there's no way to control who they'll infect once they're released.

Originally Posted by gibits

On a side note: I guess Rika saving Tanako's parents isn't canon, but it was a nice touch. If it wasn't for that tragedy maybe Tanako wouldn't be the crazy bitch she turned out to be.

That scene was canonical. Bernkastel does save Miyoko's parents in one of the worlds and she grows up to be a normal and sane person. However that doesn't affect any of the worlds that Rika has lived in.

[gibits]

I thought the prophylaxis shot was to suppress the virus, not a vaccine or cure. And even then if enough stress was placed, the disease will still come through.

My point was that Tanako should be in a nut house whether or not she had the disease. It was just poetic justice that she fell victim to the very evil that she was spreading (she likes making people crazy).