[Manga] Do you feel sorry for Orihime?

[Kakashi]

Originally Posted by tbl

I dislike Orihime for the same reason I like Rukia.

Yes, there does have to be a character with a soft side and I can live with that. But not one where the entire arc is focused on that characters angst. Furthermore, Orihime pretty much only has a soft side.

An entire arc was also devoted to Rukia's angst, which was even worse than Orihime's has been this arc. I mean, Rukia had a mental breakdown every time she gained the will to live. I'm guessing there are two reasons you failed to make this connection.

1) You sped through the SS arc so you didn't have to put up with it week after week.
2) You like Rukia, but not Orihime.

Although it's likely the former contributed to the latter.

What you describe has been done before and done better, a whole lot better. Such a struggle isn't entertaining when it becomes too wangsty. Angst isn't entertaining unless done very well (Zeta Gundam) but even then, I don't like it.

Heh, well that's the thing. You don't even like it when it's done well, so naturally you wouldn't like someone like Orihime.

Strength comes from conviction, belief in yourself and belief in others. Orihime has no such strength. She is timid and angsty.

Well yh, you tend not to feel sorry for strong people. Read the thread title? The whole point is you're supposed to sympathise with her short-comings because they make her more human.

Her character also lack's a lot of good qualities in a literary sense. She has barely done anything apart from being kidnapped. And considering how much page/screen time she has gotten...

Nope. Orihime has developed a power far more important to the overall plot and to the main bad guy of the series Aizen, meaning she can drive the conflict of the series to a large degree. Orihime has the power of plot, she can change things. She hasn't yet, but she will. In hindsight, something Rukia lost the ability to do the moment she gave her powers to Ichigo.

[tbl]

Originally Posted by Kakashi

An entire arc was also devoted to Rukia's angst, which was even worse than Orihime's has been this arc. I mean, Rukia had a mental breakdown every time she gained the will to live. I'm guessing there are two reasons you failed to make this connection.

It wasn't nearly as bad, nor as frequent. The stuff over Kaien was annoying, but other than that it was fine.

Originally Posted by Kakashi

1) You sped through the SS arc so you didn't have to put up with it week after week.
2) You like Rukia, but not Orihime.

Although it's likely the former contributed to the latter.

I do like Rukia and not Orihime. But if Rukia was as angsty as Orihime, or as timid, I wouldn't. And the relationship between Rukia and Ichigo was a lot more even.

Originally Posted by Kakashi

Heh, well that's the thing. You don't even like it when it's done well, so naturally you wouldn't like someone like Orihime.

When it's done well, I can tolerate it. I'd prefer if it wasn't there, but it won't annoy me. When it's done badly and in an anime like Bleach where it is out of place, it's annoying. It worked in anime series like Zeta Gundam, where it was part of theme and extended to other characters.

Originally Posted by Kakashi

Well yh, you tend not to feel sorry for strong people. Read the thread title? The whole point is you're supposed to sympathise with her short-comings because they make her more human.

I tend not to feel sorry for annoying characters. I can sympathise with characters that have had truly tragic pasts.

Originally Posted by Kakashi

Nope. Orihime has developed a power far more important to the overall plot and to the main bad guy of the series Aizen, meaning she can drive the conflict of the series to a large degree. Orihime has the power of plot, she can change things. She hasn't yet, but she will.

Didn't Aizen reveal that he doesn't actually need her powers and she was kidnapped purely as a distraction.

And if she does eventually use her powers, it better be something pretty damn awesome, if not, it will be too little, too late.

And if she uses her powers to bring back the dead...

Originally Posted by Kakashi

In hindsight, something Rukia lost the ability to do the moment she gave her powers to Ichigo.

Even without her powers, she still added to the plot. Her knowledge was necessary. And Ichigo went to save her due to a sense of duty as she his world. It was a tad more interested than the tired shonen nakama excuse.

[Glacial]

May I butt in?

Originally Posted by tbl

Didn't Aizen reveal that he doesn't actually need her powers and she was kidnapped purely as a distraction.

I'm sorry, but this would be a huge plothole on Kubo's part if Aizen was telling the truth here. Remember Ulquiorra's elaborate explanation to Nnoitra inside the hallway? He told us all about how Aizen went to great and complex measures to make Orihime appear as a traitor to SS, and when he confronted Ichigo in LN the first time, he said that if she was thought to simply be kidnapped, it would be a miscalculation.

I think Orihime is still quite useful to Aizen's plan, he just wants our protagonists to think the opposite

Originally Posted by tbl

And if she does eventually use her powers, it better be something pretty damn awesome, if not, it will be too little, too late.

And if she uses her powers to bring back the dead...

Technically, Ichigo died when he got hand-stabbed by Ulquiorra, so she can bring back the dead. Her supportive abilities "step into god's territory," as Aizen said

The fact of the matter is, Orihime has probably the most potential of any character in Bleach; the balancing factor is that she is too timid to put it to the use many people demand from her, which would be utilizing much more of her potential than mere "healing"

Originally Posted by hakisak

Who translated it?

ToriyamaWorld did; it's the version Onemanga uses

Your translation?

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

I'm of the crack idea that Aizen will succeed in making his key, and he will have Orihime restore Karakura after the key is done (being miss valiant sacrifice in the process, probably to angsty though). Two reasons 1) a King needs his subjects! 2) wiping out a 100K souls like that -since the process consumes the souls, they ain't going to Soul Society- would probably fk the Balance sideways.

[tbl]

Originally Posted by Glacial

I think Orihime is still quite useful to Aizen's plan, he just wants our protagonists to think the opposite

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Glacial

Technically, Ichigo died when he got hand-stabbed by Ulquiorra, so she can bring back the dead.

NOOOOOO!!! No one will ever die in Bleach :/

[HayashiTakara]

Don't forget that she resurrected Menoli after Grimmjow blow up everything but her legs.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by Glacial

I just wanted to nitpick and point out that the fairies she uses for phenomenon rejection are DIFFERENT from the one she used to attack Yammy.

For all we know, that guy-fairy (Tsubaki? I really suck at remembering the names) she launched at Yammy is only capable of using a shield to cut an opponent, nothing more.

I believe the same fairies that are used to "heal" people (as many call it) are the ones used for phenomenon rejection because THEY were the ones analyzed by Ulquiorra, and later Aizen. The guy who got crushed was never technically analyzed when Yammy and Ulquiorra initially arrived to KK town.

Furthermore, phenomenon rejection means she would have to choose the specific phenomenon to reject. She can "heal" because she denies that the person ever got hurt. She can reject the hougyoku's existence by denying that it was ever created. However, denying a hollow's birth just seems much much more complex, as she even knows who created the Hougyoku, and has known since Aizen's explanation at Soukyoku Hill.

However, I do agree with you, though it's because we don't know whether she can reject a living being "out of existence." We just know she wanted to reject the Hougyoku. I do think it's been hinted that she can be very useful in the front lines of battle, but she's eons of character development away from this point.

Just like Ichigo, she doesn't understand the full extent of her powers she can access, and I hope that all the foreshadowing we've gotten won't be for nil in the end :/

Mr Hat and Clogs already put up the page by the group that is known to be the best of the Bleach scanslators. And as a follow up per Viz's translaton of SOULs " Koten Zanshun The power to reject the fussion of matter and split it". Tsubaki is the same rejection ablity as her healing sheild.

It's very unlikely she could use Soten Kishun to reject someone out of existance. First Soten Kishun takes quite a bit of time when it has to deal with fixing large wounds or those that have resedue of powerful fighters, remember she had a very hard time healing Ichigo from the wounds he got from Ulquiorra. Second, It can be broken and Kenpachi seemed to have little problem in doing so with a few kicks. This would limit it's usefulness to people that are too weak to be able to break her sheild which agian leaves the Espada out.

And while Orihime can raise the dead we have no clear idea what her limits are. she has only done it 3 maybe 4 times. The first 2 , the escorts Ulquiorra killed, she was able to start the healing in seconds but even then it wasn't easy for her and it seems to have taken a while to do so. The third, Meloli, was repaired fairly quickly but again she was able to get to her within a few minnutes. It's still not clear if Ichigo was dead or Only Mostly Dead, but again healing him then was pretty much her limit.

[Glacial]

Originally Posted by kagato3

Mr Hat and Clogs already put up the page by the group that is known to be the best of the Bleach scanslators. And as a follow up per Viz's translaton of SOULs " Koten Zanshun The power to reject the fussion of matter and split it". Tsubaki is the same rejection ablity as her healing sheild.

Right, and as I commented on the page, and you even said it yourself, it splits the enemy in two. More specifically, it forms a shield inside of them and repels what's on each side. This only tells me that it's cutting them, and we see this when she uses Tsubaki against the weird hollow she fought: she cut its mask in two, then it faded gradually like a normal hollow dying.

Furthermore, the attack she launched at Yammy with Tsubaki was not analyzed by Ulquiorra, only the fairies that "healed" Chad. We have not been told that all of her fairies possess the event rejection ability, only the ones that can restore what was damaged

Saying Tsubaki can undo an enemy's very existence is mere speculation, is what I'm saying

Also, I'd like to clarify what I mean by rejecting or undoing existence. If something's very existence was rejected, it would simply disappear and seem as if it never was there. Undoing the birth of a living being is not something we know yet that she is capable of, and there's a difference between rejecting an action (like wounding someone) and rejecting the very birth of a soul. (It is also still very possible that rejecting the very existence of a living being could take catastrophic effects)

[Nervous Venus]

Originally Posted by Kakashi

An entire arc was also devoted to Rukia's angst, which was even worse than Orihime's has been this arc. I mean, Rukia had a mental breakdown every time she gained the will to live. I'm guessing there are two reasons you failed to make this connection.

1) You sped through the SS arc so you didn't have to put up with it week after week.
2) You like Rukia, but not Orihime.

Although it's likely the former contributed to the latter.

Substitute "Orihime" where Rukia's name is, and the same would probably apply to you.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by Glacial

Right, and as I commented on the page, and you even said it yourself, it splits the enemy in two. More specifically, it forms a shield inside of them and repels what's on each side. This only tells me that it's cutting them, and we see this when she uses Tsubaki against the weird hollow she fought: she cut its mask in two, then it faded gradually like a normal hollow dying.

Furthermore, the attack she launched at Yammy with Tsubaki was not analyzed by Ulquiorra, only the fairies that "healed" Chad. We have not been told that all of her fairies possess the event rejection ability, only the ones that can restore what was damaged

Tsubaki does't just cut something he quite literly breaks down all matter the sheild touches. As for it not being analyzed given all Ulquiorra did to analyze her healing was look at it I'm pretty sure it was as well. You seem to be missing I major thing here. All of her comman phrases for her moves are "I reject" and Tsubaki flat out states that he "rejects the fussion of matter". Why wate time trying to completely remove something from existance with a move that is completely unsuable for combat when you can just erase a much smaller section in a fraction of a section. Her powers are not like balefire.

[Glacial]

Originally Posted by kagato3

Tsubaki does't just cut something he quite literly breaks down all matter the sheild touches. As for it not being analyzed given all Ulquiorra did to analyze her healing was look at it I'm pretty sure it was as well. You seem to be missing I major thing here. All of her comman phrases for her moves are "I reject" and Tsubaki flat out states that he "rejects the fussion of matter". Why wate time trying to completely remove something from existance with a move that is completely unsuable for combat when you can just erase a much smaller section in a fraction of a section. Her powers are not like balefire.

Ha, you actually have read the Wheel of Time too! I used to love reading the series...

You say Tsubaki doesn't cut, but the hollow she attacked with Tsubaki says different, as its mask gets split clean, then it dies like a normal hollow >_>

And he said REPELLING the fusion of matter on both sides of the shield, not rejecting, in the translation. I can only visualize this as the shield splitting something in two after being formed by Tsubaki. The hollow I mentioned above is my evidence for this as well, as we didn't even see it disappear until after a clean cut went straight down its mask...

Also, since you used Wiki, I'd like to quote the Bleach Wiki to support my point of view:

Originally Posted by Wiki

Koten Zanshun (孤天斬盾; lit. Solitary Sacred Cutting Shield):[25] is Orihime's offensive technique. The incantation summons Tsubaki, who forms a thin barrier to either side of himself. By flying at an enemy, the barrier can reject anything to either side of it, thus cutting through enemies like a sword. While Tsubaki can cut through basically anything, Orihime's general dislike of combat and hesitance to use lethal force degrades the effectiveness of the technique, making him easy to counter and equally easy to injure.

About Tsubaki being analyzed by Ulquiorra, I'm 99% sure he would've at least SAID something about the attack if it could reject Yammy's existence. For example: "That attack was much more dangerous than it seemed," or what not.

As for her saying "I reject" for attacking, I would have to label this as a misleading translation. In fact, the very group you called the best of the Bleach scanlators had her say "I repel (thee)!" Now, while repel and reject do hold some synonymous denotations, repelling something out of existence simply doesn't make sense. She says the same thing with her shield, and what does it do? It repels attacks. What does the shield Tsubaki creates do? It repels both sides in such a way that ends up slicing. Finally, I call it a misleading translation because Koten Zanshun, the name of Tsubaki's attack, uses the Kanji for cutting, and many fans such as yourself speculate it can do more because she says "I reject!"

Again, Tsubaki's ability to simply reject beings out of existence is mere speculation; he can cut them, though.

[EoT]

I do because she is always so helpless. Her only offensive attack is weak and all she can do is stand on the sideline.

[hakisak]

Originally Posted by kagato3

Tsubaki does't just cut something he quite literly breaks down all matter the sheild touches.

Thank you! Cookie for that! I was just going to say something like that. This will do.....

The problem is, to many people feel sorry for her. Pity is never good, empathy yes--Pity sucks. I won't pity her, since in my opinion her life has been bad, but others in Bleach have been worse. There are times you just have to "Suck it up!!"

[Kakashi]

Originally Posted by hakisak

The problem is, to many people feel sorry for her. Pity is never good, empathy yes--Pity sucks. I won't pity her, since in my opinion her life has been bad, but others in Bleach have been worse. There are times you just have to "Suck it up!!"

I wouldn't start comparing her hardship with anyone elses, she's had it pretty tough and that's all there is to it. Suffering is subjective, and mental pain barriers are built up around a person's own experiences.

It's quite ironic, the time I felt for Orihime the most was during the filler episode where we see her alone at home, in that blue night-gown crying. That episode started the worst anime arc of the entire series, of course.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by Glacial

Ha, you actually have read the Wheel of Time too! I used to love reading the series...

You say Tsubaki doesn't cut, but the hollow she attacked with Tsubaki says different, as its mask gets split clean, then it dies like a normal hollow >_>

And he said REPELLING the fusion of matter on both sides of the shield, not rejecting, in the translation. I can only visualize this as the shield splitting something in two after being formed by Tsubaki. The hollow I mentioned above is my evidence for this as well, as we didn't even see it disappear until after a clean cut went straight down its mask...

You will notice that manga groups never seem to keep translateing it the same. I have seen it translated as repel, refuse and reject. The subbers with the most reliable translations use reject. The Offical translation is reject. Tsubaki "cuts" by completely breaking down a small section of matter where his sheild touches.

Also, since you used Wiki, I'd like to quote the Bleach Wiki to support my point of view:


About Tsubaki being analyzed by Ulquiorra, I'm 99% sure he would've at least SAID something about the attack if it could reject Yammy's existence. For example: "That attack was much more dangerous than it seemed," or what not.

As for her saying "I reject" for attacking, I would have to label this as a misleading translation. In fact, the very group you called the best of the Bleach scanlators had her say "I repel (thee)!" Now, while repel and reject do hold some synonymous denotations, repelling something out of existence simply doesn't make sense. She says the same thing with her shield, and what does it do? It repels attacks. What does the shield Tsubaki creates do? It repels both sides in such a way that ends up slicing. Finally, I call it a misleading translation because Koten Zanshun, the name of Tsubaki's attack, uses the Kanji for cutting, and many fans such as yourself speculate it can do more because she says "I reject!"

Again, Tsubaki's ability to simply reject beings out of existence is mere speculation; he can cut them, though.

I have never claimed Tsubaki could reject beings out of existence, which quite frankly is pretty pointless since doing so would do the exact same as just killing them since as i said before her powers don't work like balefire.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Kakashi

It's quite ironic, the time I felt for Orihime the most was during the filler episode where we see her alone at home, in that blue night-gown crying. That episode started the worst anime arc of the entire series, of course.

This makes me recall another instance where Orihime was shedding some tears as Rangiku embraced her. (At that moment, I was almost convinced they were trying to set Matsumoto up to be her big sister.)

btw, could anyone tell me what episode number that was?

[Kakashi]

Methinks the Matsu/Hime ep. is 114. The one I was talking about is almost straight after SS, except there's a one episode recap, so try ep. 64 for that one.

[sayde]

Awesome. Thanks a lot for the quick and informative reply Kakashi.

[hakisak]

Originally Posted by Kakashi

I wouldn't start comparing her hardship with anyone elses,

Why not?

For every hard luck story--there is always someone who has it worse.

Pity gets you no where. Its fine to have support. Dependency is another promblem

She needs to grow a spine. She doesn't have to pwn hollows. But at least bag a few bytches now and again.

[Casshern]

I don't feel sorry for her because she's very strong and so far she's succeeded in dealing with almost everything that crossed her way alone, with her own willpower and conviction. Such a character is admirable rather than pitiful. She may have a pitiful expression on her face all the time but her actions always prove the contrary. So I voted "other"...