[Manga] Naruto Chapter 542 Discussion

[HasuMasu]

but then again, this is shonen manga where the women are naturally inferior to men no matter how "powerful" they're supposed to be.

um, did you forget konan kicking madara's ass? DID YOU!!??? I THINK YOU DID!!!!

I think you missed the part of the manga which says that she is a medical ninja.

well said

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Da_Box

um, did you forget konan kicking madara's ass? DID YOU!!??? I THINK YOU DID!!!!

He probably remember how Madara gutted her with a pipe before he choked her to death.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I think you missed the part of the manga which says that she is a medical ninja.

I think you missed the parts of the manga where she has superhuman strenght, the ability to frie your nervous system with a touch, ridiculously high regeneration, an haxed summon and mastery of poison.
The author could easily give her an impressive fight, he simply choose not to do so, which suck.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Hunter

The author could easily give her an impressive fight, he simply choose not to do so, which suck.

agreed, the pre time-skip Tsunade was very badass...

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by Hunter

He probably remember how Madara gutted her with a pipe before he choked her to death.

I remember how Jiraiya took her out in 5 seconds with a loogie.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Fran~

agreed, the pre time-skip Tsunade was very badass...

Before the timeskip that was badass, now it's just average. Guys like the raikage could kill Tsunade before she even realizes she was attacked. I wrote that she is a medical ninja in the defense of her character, because even if the other 4 kages are stronger than her, she is meant to be the best ever medical ninja, so there is no reason for bashing her character, she's simply not the one who should fight on the front lines as she told to Sakura.

[Fran~]

I don't blame Tsunade, i blame Kishi... i don't know why he always underestimates female characters (so, why he created them in first place?). Tsunade's speech about medical ninjas is very clear, you need to be strong in order to not be injured because that's a serious blow to the team. She didn't tell Sakura to not fight in the front lines (she fought Hanzou! and her team was probably the tip of the spear in Konoha).

Sakura fought Sasori, she killed with one punch a Pain's summon, now he captured a Zetsu clone, but Kishi ruins every progress with some failed subplot (related to Sasuke).

Why Kishi didn't use Tsunade's skills a little more when she faced Pain?. She just use Souzousaisei and then Naruto made his dynamic entry.

That's not Tsunade's failure, is Kishi's failure.

Take Jiraiya... he was capable to fight Pain without intel, in the end, he lost and died, but we saw a full-throtle Jiraiya. With Tsunade we saw nothing about her skills thanks to Kishi, we only saw how she healed lots of people through Katsuyu. This is just my opinion, but Tsunade was created as a formidable ninja, not as a formidable healer, who was on par with Orochimaru and Jiraiya, who fought Hanzou and is the grandaughter of Senju Hashirama.

I bet that if Tsunade would be a man, Kishi would create an awesome fight against Pain and after that Naruto would arrive.

[Endrance]

Kishi couldnt even think of any powerful women to even resurrect as zombies and considering the the amount of them you'd think there were some powerful kunoichi in the world at some point

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Sakura fought Sasori, she killed with one punch a Pain's summon, now he captured a Zetsu clone, but Kishi ruins every progress with some failed subplot (related to Sasuke).

So does that tell anything about Sakura's strength? Not really, it tells about her feelings, as a 16 year old girl. Add to that Sasuke's inhuman powers, there is really no reason to bash Sakura for not being able to kill Sasuke, it doesn't tell anything about her strength as a ninja.

Originally Posted by Fran~

Why Kishi didn't use Tsunade's skills a little more when she faced Pain?. She just use Souzousaisei and then Naruto made his dynamic entry.

She could have beaten the weaker Pain bodies, but the Yahiko body would just beat her anyway.

Originally Posted by Fran~

With Tsunade we saw nothing about her skills thanks to Kishi, we only saw how she healed lots of people through Katsuyu. This is just my opinion, but Tsunade was created as a formidable ninja, not as a formidable healer, who was on par with Orochimaru and Jiraiya, who fought Hanzou and is the grandaughter of Senju Hashirama.

We have already seen her moves against Orochimaru and Kabuto, what else did you expect? We never saw her fighting a 1on1 battle, we have seen her in team fighting, in the Hanzou flashback she seems to be supporting the other two as she holds an injured Jiraiya. Being from the Senju clan never played a role since she has never shown any special bloodline ability. I agree that it would have been nice if she had some special Senju bloodline power and she showed it against Pain. But i think the author did the same to Tsunade as he did to whole Konoha, they were made spectators to the Pain vs Naruto battle. So her absence from the battle was the same as the absence of most of Konoha, it was for plot reasons and not because she is female.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

So does that tell anything about Sakura's strength? Not really, it tells about her feelings, as a 16 year old girl. Add to that Sasuke's inhuman powers, there is really no reason to bash Sakura for not being able to kill Sasuke, it doesn't tell anything about her strength as a ninja.

I don't bash characters... besides i really like her. That's why i blame Kishi for his ideas about Sakura. I'm ok with the fact that she couldn't kill Sasuke, i found lame how things happened. Kishi could make some fight, Sasuke was going blind, Sakura could land some blows and just in the instant she was about to stab him, she pulls back... What did Kishi? Sakura attacked from behind... if you ask me, i think that isn't cool at all.

She could have beaten the weaker Pain bodies, but the Yahiko body would just beat her anyway.

It's ok to be beaten... but the difference is how... That's why i remember Jiraiya's fight, because Kishi did a great fight despite Jiraiya's death.

it was for plot reasons and not because she is female.

Probably... but in my eyes, Kishi creates too much expectation with his kunoichis. It's just my personal opinion though.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Fran~

I don't bash characters... besides i really like her. That's why i blame Kishi for his ideas about Sakura.

It's the same, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Fran~

I'm ok with the fact that she couldn't kill Sasuke, i found lame how things happened. Kishi could make some fight, Sasuke was going blind, Sakura could land some blows and just in the instant she was about to stab him, she pulls back... What did Kishi? Sakura attacked from behind... if you ask me, i think that isn't cool at all.

Since Sasuke doesn't have some powered up body even one hit from Sakura would kill him, i mean a full powered hit. Sure it would have been fun if she punched Sasuke around like Tsunade did it with Orochimaru, however Sasuke just does not have that kind of body that could stand such beating, and he does not have Karin or Juugo around to heal him from lethal wounds.

The other problem is that people would start endless complaints: why did Kishimoto let Sakura beat up a completely exhausted Sasuke. The guy kills Danzou, who was in godmode, and now some chuunin beats him? This whole reunion of team 7 was not meant to be a fight, Sasuke's power is now way beyond the level of Kakashi or Sakura, this was done to hype up a future Naruto vs Sasuke fight.

Originally Posted by Fran~

It's ok to be beaten... but the difference is how... That's why i remember Jiraiya's fight, because Kishi did a great fight despite Jiraiya's death.

I think this was the best way to show Tsunade, because this way Pain didn't wipe the floor with her, her dignity as hokage was less hurt than having a fight where Pain would badly beat her.

Originally Posted by Fran~

Probably... but in my eyes, Kishi creates too much expectation with his kunoichis. It's just my personal opinion though.

But he also created too much expectations for Sasori, and then he was beaten by an old hag a young kunoichi. My opinion is that Kishi never created too high expectations for females. For example why did you expect more from Tsunade? The elders wanted Jiraiya to be the next hokage, so from the start she was just a second choice. Then there is Sakura who is the only average person in team7.

[Endscape]

But he also created too much expectations for Sasori, and then he was beaten by an old hag a young kunoichi.

People created the hype, not Kishi.

My opinion is that Kishi never created too high expectations for females. For example why did you expect more from Tsunade? The elders wanted Jiraiya to be the next hokage, so from the start she was just a second choice. Then there is Sakura who is the only average person in team7.

To be fair, Tsunade wasn't in the village, they had no idea where she was, and they knew she didn't want the job.

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Yup, but Tsunade is also a healer... and she is quite different. Don't get me wrong, my point is that Kishi from time on time give us some candy with Sakura, recently it was with the fake Neji. But in the end, there is no progress with her, Chiyo praised her so much that i thought that i would really see Sakura as i saw Naruto after Jiraiya's training.

What makes Tsunade different? The only differences between Tsunade and Sakura are the huge breasts and the experience. Well, of course Tsunade is a natural born Senju and Sakura is just a Haruno whatever… nothing special.

As I mentioned before, I think it's all about Sakura gaining experience. That's what Kishi can use as an explanation for improvement or even a makeover.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Endscape

People created the hype, not Kishi.

No, Kishimoto created substantial hype. Sasori was said to have destroyed a village by himself. He was the Shinobi that defeated the most powerful Kage is Suna's history. He was said to be the greatest puppet master ever. Etc. Fans did not imagine this info, Kishimoto went out of his way to give us this info. This is also why Sakura and Chiyo's victory was so powerful.

[Discerptor]

Originally Posted by james0246

No, Kishimoto created substantial hype. Sasori was said to have destroyed a village by himself. He was the Shinobi that defeated the most powerful Kage is Suna's history. He was said to be the greatest puppet master ever. Etc. Fans did not imagine this info, Kishimoto went out of his way to give us this info. This is also why Sakura and Chiyo's victory was so powerful.

Not to mention the Akatsuki member that single-handedly invaded Suna and kidnapped Gaara was constantly referring to Sasori as his superior.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Sakura fought Sasori, she killed with one punch a Pain's summon, now he captured a Zetsu clone, but Kishi ruins every progress with some failed subplot (related to Sasuke).

I'm having some trouble following your logic regarding how "kishi" supposedly ruined Sakura's progress by having her fail in some subplot related to Sasuke. Assuming Sakura actually did kill Sasuke in the state he was in(or even harm him), how would this accomplishment really compare to her very competitive fight against Sasori in prime condition? And, how does her not being able to bring herself to kill Sasuke ruin her passed accolades/progress?

Sakura wasn't suddenly portrayed as an unskillful fighter mind you, she quickly and easily got the drop on Sasuke(just as she should have at her current level, under the circumstances) but she was a victim of her own deeply rooted emotions for Sasuke, so she stopped her attack at the last moment. Please feel free to let me know of any inconsistencies this creates about Sakura's progress, or how they are tarnished. Events like Tsunade freezing her actions because of her hemophobia, and Sarutobi's hesitation to kill his former student(despite declaring he'd set his emotions aside) come to mind.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

I'm having some trouble following your logic regarding how "kishi" supposedly ruined Sakura's progress by having her fail in some subplot related to Sasuke. Assuming Sakura actually did kill Sasuke in the state he was in(or even harm him), how would this accomplishment really compare to her very competitive fight against Sasori in prime condition? And, how does her not being able to bring herself to kill Sasuke ruin her passed accolades/progress?

My point is pretty simple... and it's just an opinion... I think that Sakura could be a more interesting character based how Kishi created her. That's all. I will not talk about Sasuke, just i would want to see a Sakura more focused in her skills like a healer, kunoichi, etc and not a Sakura who seems to come from a Shoujo manga.

I was very pleased when Sakura fought with Chiyo against Sasori, how she acted almost replacing Tsunade and Shizune when Pain attacked Konoha or when she noticed zetsu's clone... That's all, if i could ask something to Kishi i would ask to see Sakura doing that type of actions.

Sakura wasn't suddenly portrayed as an unskillful fighter mind you, she quickly and easily got the drop on Sasuke(just as she should have at her current level, under the circumstances) but she was a victim of her own deeply rooted emotions for Sasuke, so she stopped her attack at the last moment. Please feel free to let me know of any inconsistencies this creates about Sakura's progress, or how they are tarnished. Events like Tsunade freezing her actions because of her hemophobia, and Sarutobi's hesitation to kill his former student(despite declaring he'd set his emotions aside) come to mind.

I'm agree about how emotions worked on Sakura, Tsunade and Sarutobi. Again, perhaps i used a bad example or the wrong words.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

I'm having some trouble following your logic regarding how "kishi" supposedly ruined Sakura's progress by having her fail in some subplot related to Sasuke. Assuming Sakura actually did kill Sasuke in the state he was in(or even harm him), how would this accomplishment really compare to her very competitive fight against Sasori in prime condition? And, how does her not being able to bring herself to kill Sasuke ruin her passed accolades/progress?

Sakura wasn't suddenly portrayed as an unskillful fighter mind you, she quickly and easily got the drop on Sasuke(just as she should have at her current level, under the circumstances) but she was a victim of her own deeply rooted emotions for Sasuke, so she stopped her attack at the last moment. Please feel free to let me know of any inconsistencies this creates about Sakura's progress, or how they are tarnished. Events like Tsunade freezing her actions because of her hemophobia, and Sarutobi's hesitation to kill his former student(despite declaring he'd set his emotions aside) come to mind.

The "win" would be an internal win, it'll mean that she actually kept to her word and did what she was suppose to. But her heart made her fail despite better judgement.

[Lendial]

it would have been better if she was portrayed as unskillful than emotionally indecisive, after all sasuke is strong beyond belief even in that sickly state. she could of attempted to the final blow, but sasuke or friends somehow stopped her. instead, she ended up giving into her emotions and makes her look weak and lacking resolve.

[ronin myael]

whether it's kishi's fault or his characters, it doesn't really matter since without him there would be no naruto and no story. when we criticize kishi, we are criticizing how he handles his characters and how he writes his story, and when we criticize his characters, we are really criticizing him.

tsunade may be a medical ninja but who says she can't fight? she has the skills and the power to defeat a powerful enemy and it was kishi himself who hyped her up. and yet she couldn't even lift a finger in this current war. why is that? we naturally blame kishi for it but we can't help but be disappointed in the character as well. there is no powerful female character in this series that can seriously beat up an equally powerful opponent by herself and that saddens me.

[HasuMasu]

He probably remember how Madara gutted her with a pipe before he choked her to death.

harsh, it was a given he'd win anyway, but she was damn impressive, she almost killed him, but of course he pulled some bad ass move

which i don't really hold against him anyway