[Manga] Chapter 401 Discussion

[HiroInazuma]

Is there a chapter this week because I have seen no sign of spoilers?

[Ero-Senn1n]

I wonder what did lead Itachi to his decision that there are no other options. Maybe the Uchiha did really make final preparations to summon the kyuubi against the village. But i don't think there was anyone able to do it. So a possible solution:
Madara did play this game with Itachi to see what would Itachi decide. If Madara offered to the Uchiha clan his ability to summon the kyuubi ( kidnapping Naruto and killing him also included in the price ), then he observed how would Itachi react knowing his situation. So when the Uchiha accepted Madara's offer and they held their secret meeting to begin their rebellion Itachi had no other choice. That would be the evil Madara who forces Itachi to make a choice between the village and the clan, probably hoping that Itachi will chose the clan so that Madara can have his revenge. But also if Itachi choses the village then Madara can have revenge on his clan by helping Itachi to kill every Uchiha
I think what we see now is Madara's good side, but he has a very evil side that he will show in the upcoming chapters and he may force Sasuke to make a similar choice. It was probably Madara who mindf*cked Pain/Nagato too.

[james0246]

It would be interesting if Itachi chose to act against the Uchiha because they were going to use Naruto (wheter it be to kill him or summon the beast from him, etc.). That would definetly cement a reason/person for Sasuke to focus on.

[Ryuujin]

Originally Posted by Hunter

What about it? Having a girlfriend at 13 is nothing but normal and we're talking about kids who can be sent on the battlefield when they are half this age.

Not to mention I think Itachi must have hit puberty at age 5 or something, since iirc he looked exactly the same (height and everything) even in flashbacks where he was younger than Sasuke was at the beginning of the series...

[SeanQ]

Lol...has it been asked what the relationship between the kyuubi and Madara is? I mean...when Sasuke supressed it...it mentioned Madara's name...so...Sasuke should be remembering this...and just ask...if he wasn't the one that controlled the kyuubi, than how does it know his name? =) bam bam

Though, Madara would probably just answer, "we were butt buddies" and sasuke would believe it...because he is just so vulnerable at the moment that he would believe anything =)
________
LOVE LYRICS FORUM

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Actually we were told Sarutobi tried to negociate to the bitter end but again that's not what I was discussing.

I only have one translation with me. And, it doesn't give a time reference for Sandaime's efforts.

The situation in the Water contry is actually nearly the same. Their power that be decided people with Kekkai Genkai were reason for civil wars and they decided to kill them all for the sake of their country, including those who had never done anything wrong. Except being born that is.
This is exactly the situation of Sasuke, he was a kid who knew nothing about the coup, his only crime was being born Uchiha and it cost him a death warrant.
Most of those killed by Pain were also killed for nothing else but being more or less related to someone who might have opposed him at some point, not for something they actually did.

I still see it differently. Uchihas were planning for a civil war. They were not people that had nothing to do with what is going on (unlike many mist people). They were not living their own separate lives in a secluded part of the country. They are living within the main ninja village actively working within that field. Even the newborns are born with the fate of working as a ninja, rather than living an ordinary non-ninja life.

For the Pain part, I have already mentioned my views.

Yes. There is a reason why what they did is considered the worst possible crime a civilization can do.

You are trying to put in a broader and different perspective, I will "play" to that.

Based on this line of thought a nation at war with another should genocide its entire population because there might be bad blood later. Broadening the possible threats you also have to kill people in your country who might disagree with your decision because they could revolt later and so they have to be taken care of. With their families and friends who could revolt against their death, etc.

Genocides were not considered a crime many hundreds and thousands of years ago. And, if you want to make a comparison, you should project your views of the current time onto the past to understand Konoha's reasoning. If there is a nation fully arming themselves, with anyone who can hold a weapon (and for ninjas that mean even 5-6 might be sufficient as age), to destroy another one, and you are sure about those plans, which may have been tested in time before, and you had done everything you can to prevent that but failed, yes, you may decide to act earlier to minimize the number of causalities.

Your reasoning is simply absurd at best and sickening if you really understand what you are defending : killing an entire population based on what you fear they might do instead of something they actually did or are planning to do.

Let me ask you this. Do you currently have a nation that earns its living mainly from killing people, be it innocent or not, as that is the least they are expected to care? Konoha is a village formed to provide these killing tools, be it children or elderly. And, we are discussing the fate of a portion of those killing tools. I prefer to not place my views using idealistic real life notions, as what we here have is not what we really have.

Don't you think it is much more sickening to make kids use ninja tools to kill another? And you are following this story from the beginning with great enjoyment, am I wrong?

[Goshin]

the funny thing is that naruto is suppose to be a shounen manga whose audience are little boys but kishimoto is present an adult theme into it. in other stories for young children people may do things as bad as genocide. but they are clearly marked as bad or good. but here we have an organziations that was labeled as the good guys from the start, with thier will of fire and everything. in fact I recall many people making fun of konoha for being a bunch of happy ninjas, and the other villages were more badass. then all over sudden they turn into nazis. I apppreciate the fact kishimot is trying to teach important lesson, not everything is what it seems, don't judge a book by its cover, every rose has its thorns yadi yada.

[tatami]

Originally Posted by The Small One

You seem to forget, that the readers get older too.
It's been 400 chapters... with about 50 chapters a year, this means that already 8 years have passed. The "little boys" became teenagers or even adults in this time.

and I am about to get married

anyway on topic , I wasnt around for 2-3 weeks read the chapters and I am curious about the hokage...he is the leader and yet couldnt make decisions on his own? the elders had that influence on hokage?

how much mindfck does sasuke need in order to bring down the fury to the ninja world I wonder

actually I am happy the way story goes , sasukes way is kinda cant be predicted and how his path will cross with naruto is interesting...moreover will naruto be a pawn to old mistakes of konoha?

what happened to suigetsu karin and shark guy?

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

I only have one translation with me. And, it doesn't give a time reference for Sandaime's efforts.

That's probably because there is no time reference at all showing a stop of Sarutobi's efforts for peace, this is the guy who was still trying to talk the "Kazekage" out of war with a kunai under his throat.

I still see it differently. Uchihas were planning for a civil war. They were not people that had nothing to do with what is going on (unlike many mist people).

That's the crux of your argument, you use the word "Uchiha" as if it was a single entity and not several people. There were people who had nothing to do with what was going on : case in point Sasuke.
And no newborns aren't born with the fate of becoming ninja nor were they all ninja in the first place, according to the Data Book the two old Uchiha who Sasuke talked to before the massacre weren't ninja, they were bakers. Your argument, if you can call it that, can be used for anyone killed in the Water country : because of their bloodline they were "fated" to become tool of war so it somehow made it fine to kill them even if they had never fought in their life.

Don't you think it is much more sickening to make kids use ninja tools to kill another? And you are following this story from the beginning with great enjoyment, am I wrong?

I think you misunderstood what I said. I don't find anything sickening in this manga, it is fictional events happening to fictional characters. From a story point of view I enjoy what happened to the Uchiha, if anything it's too bad the story doesn't focus more this kind of ruthless politics to get a better feel of the Naruto world.
No, what I called absurd and sickening at worse was your view, because you are actually a real person who defend the killing of people who had done nothing wrong but being born "fated to be who what they are".

If your points had only been that this kind of action isn't really surprising based on the kind of era they live in (which is basically an adaptation of what followed the Japanese Warring States period with ninja and magic to bot) and that their values aren't those of our time and place then of course the decision is understandable. Though again there is a reason Kishimoto chose to have Danzou as the instigator and not Sarutobi since this is a shounen manga and all.
But up until now that certainly wasn't what you were saying.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

That's the crux of your argument, you use the word "Uchiha" as if it was a single entity and not several people. There were people who had nothing to do with what was going on : case in point Sasuke.
And no newborns aren't born with the fate of becoming ninja nor were they all ninja in the first place, according to the Data Book the two old Uchiha who Sasuke talked to before the massacre weren't ninja, they were bakers. Your argument, if you can call it that, can be used for anyone killed in the Water country : because of their bloodline they were "fated" to become tool of war so it somehow made it fine to kill them even if they had never fought in their life.

Uchiha is an entity defined by their bloodline ability awakened or not. It is there. And Sasuke or another was no exception. They were living within the clan with the clan. So, that is different from the mist example. And, I mentioned that difference before, or am I mistaken?

No, what I called absurd and sickening at worse was your view, because you are actually a real person who defend the killing of people who had done nothing wrong but being born "fated to be who what they are".

Am I actually writing in the twilight zone, I have started to wonder. What I am telling here are the ideas related to the "fictional" story we are following. And if I made a reference from the real world, it was aiming to show the difference in values if you want to reflect the real life ones (as you can see, that is a response to your real life calls). According to your view, I should support the ideals that kill anyone in the real life depending on their fate. Well, if you understood what I am this way, then good luck my friend, as without that, I would feel pitying you.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Uchiha is an entity defined by their bloodline ability awakened or not. It is there. And Sasuke or another was no exception. They were living within the clan with the clan. So, that is different from the mist example. And, I mentioned that difference before, or am I mistaken?

Both.
But this and your very Sazelyt second paragraph are just making my point. You are not considering the Uchiha as different people to be judged depending of what they did, but as their bloodline, period.
And amusingly enough you don't see how this relate to the way the Mist defined people by their bloodline alone.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

You are not considering the Uchiha as different people to be judged depending of what they did, but as their bloodline, period.
And amusingly enough you don't see how this relate to the way the Mist defined people by their bloodline alone.

I am not considering as separate people, because, that is how they are considering themselves. They associate themselves with their bloodlines to their clans. Even though they are part of Konoha, they are actually part of Uchiha within Konoha. Their names, their strong bonds with their clan, their secret dealings within the clan that is hidden even from their village leader, they are by themselves considered as an entity separated from the village as a whole. Hence, if you are going to represent a member of the clan, you associate that person to the clan first, instead of the village.

And, I do see how two things relate or unrelate to each other, regarding the comparison between Mist and Fire. The people of the mist, the ones that are being hunted were at the level of disassociating themselves from a clan, living separate lives. Do you see the same from Uchiha who are living together with presumably strong bonds among them?

In short, the bloodline is just a part of this "how you define yourself" equation.

[Delphin]

first, sry for my english isnt good. so forgive use wrong english.

I thought (felt ?feel?)401 strory, Itachi was special-loved Sasuke.
its very sad story.
but this truth is make sasuke will grow up to great ninja.

I wondering why madara is tell truth to Sasuke ?
何の得があったんでしょう？
loving Itachi ? so cant forgive Sasuke dosent know Itachi truth ?

wondering.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Delphin

I wondering why madara is tell truth to Sasuke ?
何の得があったんでしょう？
loving Itachi ? so cant forgive Sasuke dosent know Itachi truth ?
wondering.

It is hard to say. Right now it is unknown why Madara wants Sasuke. It could be for the simple reason that Madara thinks that Sasuke is strong. Or, there could be some deeper reason.

Madara did, though, tell Sasuke his story so that Sasuke would hate Konoha.