AnimeSuki Forums

greedyspectator · 2012-05-28, 07:00

@Zero
If the lasers have the same frequency, then they will overlap due to resonance. This does increase power compared to a single laser... but then you could have a single laser with twice the power and twice the pulsing and have an even more effective laser (with better penetration and surface deposit). Single 1000 joule laser < Double 1000 joule laser < Single 2000 joule laser. Resonance is basically what a laser does even before firing a laser beam, the laser apparatus arranges so that all the electrons in the laser medium has the same greatly increased energy (thus an overlap in frequency), and when the electrons jump back to their normal levels, the extra energy is released.

EDIT: And lasers have to be pulsed, otherwise the damage they do is not enough. When a high energy photon hits a target, part of the target is vaporized, which will block of and bloom other incoming photons. If you pulse and time the laser correctly, hopefully the first pulse will vaporize part of the target, and the second pulse will arrive just after the vapor dissipates in the air, and the third pulse after that... you get the idea. Even continuous lasers have to be pulsed at least a microsecond apart.

And lasers are not supposed to be visible in the air, unless the laser energy is so great that it actually heats up the air visibly, and small dust particles in the air reflect the photons to such an extent. There are some observatories that fire a visible laser to the atmosphere as an astronomical tool, but note that these lasers are made to be inefficient since they aren't weapons, but observation apparatus.

ZeroXSEED · 2012-05-28, 07:21

Well the idea is normally the second main character's weapon is relative weak arrays of 24 laser (so yes, it can made overlap if he wishes), however it's more about the limitation in input power rather than the laser's output limit. Those lasers are supposed to be small arms equivalent after all.

So he could overcharge it to the point that the laser become slightly visible (though still largely unnoticeable unless it's night time) at the cost of energy consumption and heat generation. However the laser arrays become extremely powerful, now each of them pack medium firepower.

Does this makes sense? I wasn't talking about perfect realism, just some semblances to actual physic.

EDIT: Oh and in case you wonder, those laser are small so they can be hid under the armor plating, and so he can shoot multiple target at once.

demino_hellsin · 2012-05-28, 07:37

what if the laser actually turns the air into plasma?

ZeroXSEED · 2012-05-28, 07:47

As greedy said, it lose the destructive potential due to the energy wasted super-heating the air to become visible. (the light streak)

However, it does create plasma when hit the energy barrier (chipping the semi-stable wall of particles into super-excited plasma state little by little), armor, or another material.

greedyspectator · 2012-05-28, 08:02

@Zero
Well, your idea is actually quite good. I meant to say that two lasers rigidly assembled side by side firing in concert is meaningless. Lasers which can be focused into one point, however, are remarkably efficient. Huge lasers have the disadvantage of being relatively inefficient compared to smaller ones, so multiple smaller lasers aligned at a single point while still being pulsed would be more energy efficient than one huge laser. This because smaller lasers does far less blooming than bigger ones, and since their power is less, far less of that power is lost by heating up the air.

demino_hellsin · 2012-05-28, 08:04

then it really would be like a gun, losing energy the farther it travels.

ZeroXSEED · 2012-05-28, 08:25

^ Whoa thanks, precisely what I intended.

Laser have the advantage of near pinpoint accuracy and far greater effective range than particle beam (see below)

Spoiler for Delay time:

They however, does have their own weakness.

They're purely heat based weapon, do not impart meaningful kinetic energy. Due to unique properties of energy barrier, which are semi transparent and is ablative, this means laser are less effective than particle beam or even specially-coated physical weapon in breaking through barrier.

greedyspectator · 2012-05-28, 08:30

@demi:
Larger and more powerful lasers tend to lose energy faster than smaller ones. It's the same concept as the particle accelerator blooming effect, the more the temperature, the larger the blooming. Larger lasers have higher temperatures than smaller ones, and thus bloom relatively faster.

Well, all lasers lose energy the farther the target, regardless of size. It's the amount of energy that is different.

demino_hellsin · 2012-05-28, 08:38

proposal of design:

what if there were 2 particle accelerators? one is a circuit type and the other is the straightway?

The circuit accelerator excites a small high density cluster of charged particles, then it runs through the straightway accelerator which covers it in another layer of charged particles... no dice?

greedyspectator · 2012-05-28, 08:50

Demi:
It's doable, nothing in physics says it can't be done, you just have to time it correctly, as the particles leaving the circuit will have to coincide with the deployment of extra charged particles. I'm not sure why you can't just have one particle accelerator and just double the energy and the amount of particles, though. Sounds more practical. But your idea is actually quite realistic, and current circuit designs need a linear accelerator to initially deploy the particles anyway, so that idea is somewhat 'proven' already.

demino_hellsin · 2012-05-28, 08:57

that would be the practical... but the idea was that the straightway particles are less dense and have less energy. The high density particles from the circuit hide inside the lose density charge which provide a sort of ablative casing if you will.

greedyspectator · 2012-05-28, 09:17

Well, your idea's great! Although there will normally be space constraints (circuit-type accelerators are huge after all), IS technology could probably compensate for that. Your weapon would need more than just one linear accelerator, though. You would need one linear accelerator to deposit the charge, one circuit accelerator to increase density and charge, and one final linear accelerator to aim and fire the charged particles. So, two linear accelerators in total.

demino_hellsin · 2012-05-28, 09:22

would it be held against me if I conceptualized IS with weapons that may possibly break more than a few rules of science fiction?

ZeroXSEED · 2012-05-28, 09:38

Go ahead and see if I can help providing 'common reader's standpoint'

MeisterBabylon · 2012-05-28, 10:05

I listened to this rap:

And now I can't stop writing this rap!!

(SHOOTING ST@RS, YEAH!
Brought to you, by Kougami-P!
Shout it out, SHOOTING ST@RS!
COME ON!)

My name is Gou Karon, GO!
My trademark is my V-fin, yo!
Always cheerful, always throttle full
I trip a lot, gotta be careful!

What? Should I make an accident appeal?
I don't think my Buster Cannon damaged the school field--?
Oh a personal appeal?!
Well, 'leader!' that's how I feel!

~~~~~~

Celeste Eisenberg, 10 years old. ._.
My body is aged to 15 years though.
I cannot smile and I am bad with the bold,
My superiors think I'm a failure right through!

I may be a faulty cyborg, but I can still imitate
*hyper-cheerful*
So I'll be everyone's favorite leader yet!
(what the?!)

~~~~~~

Yay, I'm Erika Weber.
I'm poor, but I work hard!
Still, I have to call it a day,
There's a sale going on by the way!
I'm may be useless.
But I'll be the superpowered leader, no less!

(And you're not useless, no, yeah!)

~~~~~~

I'm everyone's idol, Risette!
I'm smart, beautiful and great with a sword.
The choice is clear you don't have to dither,
And for the last time, I'm not tsundere!!

Nihihi! It's no surprise that I'm the leader.
The top of the arena, that's who I am!
Even sounds great "Risette the Great Leader,
And her loyal servants, Sam I Am!"

~~~~~~

To be continued...

ZeroXSEED · 2012-05-28, 10:10

Len: What

Reed: The

Ichika: Hell

Dan: That's

Saruyama & Motemitsu: AWESOME!

greedyspectator · 2012-05-28, 10:15

@Demi
Breaking the rules of sci-fi is fine, really. The rules aren't even codified or written in any standard form, unlike physics.

demino_hellsin · 2012-05-28, 10:20

First is an aerial model "SH-Rekku"

The machine itself is simplistic with only 3 major features:

twin beam sabers: both of which can be used as sources of charged particles due to their independent power source and built-in particle energizers.

a pair of aero engines: these are two turbine like engines that are normally mounted on the back, they can be removed and wielded as air cannons.

magnetic claws/wings: perhaps the oddest piece of equipment. These are basically two strips of metal with integrated circuits that generate and manage a powerful magnetic field. They are normally stored on the back to generate an electron sail(I have no idea how I can use this as propulsion) or removed to be wielded as a destructive melee weapon.

Another odd feature of this machine is that these three parts can actually be combined to create another piece of equipment:

twin beam saber + aero engine = ion engines

magnet claws + twin beam sabers = high focus energy swords

twin beam sabers + aero engines + twin beam sabers = high focus energy cannon, storm cutters energy swords(basically the magnetic claws trap a particle from the beam saber in the middle and exert magnetic force on it to generate a gravity well. The aero engines feed wind to it and generate a localized storm within the sword.).

Beyond this is an array of stabilizer wings and boosters. The machine would resemble a bird of prey.

ZeroXSEED · 2012-05-28, 10:27

Lol, an I.S. with IKEA weaponry? I don't see any problem at that, and few technobabble and very little handwave is required.

Certainly does not fit 'hard science' unit, but seriously mesh well with the rest of canon universe, wacky technology and all.

In short: Plausible.

demino_hellsin · 2012-05-28, 10:47

Second unit "FL-Meikai"

a sub-aquatic unit that does its work best under water but can hold it's own above ground.

As an underwater unit, it's normal to find propeller engines on it, however the engines this time are oddly connected to the head, along with directing fins.

Along the body of the unit is covered in scale like armor which serves a three fold purpose: primary of which is defensive armor plating. Second is their capacity to increase movement in water via vibration. The last function is a last resort weapon which turns each scale into a homing dart.

The main weapon of the unit is its spear. The spearhead can split open and reveal a core which can manipulate chemical bonds of hydrogen and oxygen. This allows the spear to compound water even in the driest of places, as well as manipulation of its states.

2012-05-28, 07:00	Link #31541
greedyspectator Senior Member Join Date: May 2012	@Zero If the lasers have the same frequency, then they will overlap due to resonance. This does increase power compared to a single laser... but then you could have a single laser with twice the power and twice the pulsing and have an even more effective laser (with better penetration and surface deposit). Single 1000 joule laser < Double 1000 joule laser < Single 2000 joule laser. Resonance is basically what a laser does even before firing a laser beam, the laser apparatus arranges so that all the electrons in the laser medium has the same greatly increased energy (thus an overlap in frequency), and when the electrons jump back to their normal levels, the extra energy is released. EDIT: And lasers have to be pulsed, otherwise the damage they do is not enough. When a high energy photon hits a target, part of the target is vaporized, which will block of and bloom other incoming photons. If you pulse and time the laser correctly, hopefully the first pulse will vaporize part of the target, and the second pulse will arrive just after the vapor dissipates in the air, and the third pulse after that... you get the idea. Even continuous lasers have to be pulsed at least a microsecond apart. And lasers are not supposed to be visible in the air, unless the laser energy is so great that it actually heats up the air visibly, and small dust particles in the air reflect the photons to such an extent. There are some observatories that fire a visible laser to the atmosphere as an astronomical tool, but note that these lasers are made to be inefficient since they aren't weapons, but observation apparatus. __________________ “The evil that is in the world almost always comes from ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence if they lack understanding.” ― Albert Camus

2012-05-28, 07:21	Link #31542
ZeroXSEED I am no one Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Inside your head	Well the idea is normally the second main character's weapon is relative weak arrays of 24 laser (so yes, it can made overlap if he wishes), however it's more about the limitation in input power rather than the laser's output limit. Those lasers are supposed to be small arms equivalent after all. So he could overcharge it to the point that the laser become slightly visible (though still largely unnoticeable unless it's night time) at the cost of energy consumption and heat generation. However the laser arrays become extremely powerful, now each of them pack medium firepower. Does this makes sense? I wasn't talking about perfect realism, just some semblances to actual physic. EDIT: Oh and in case you wonder, those laser are small so they can be hid under the armor plating, and so he can shoot multiple target at once. __________________ Last edited by ZeroXSEED; 2012-05-28 at 07:31.

2012-05-28, 07:47	Link #31544
ZeroXSEED I am no one Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Inside your head	As greedy said, it lose the destructive potential due to the energy wasted super-heating the air to become visible. (the light streak) However, it does create plasma when hit the energy barrier (chipping the semi-stable wall of particles into super-excited plasma state little by little), armor, or another material. __________________

2012-05-28, 08:02	Link #31545
greedyspectator Senior Member Join Date: May 2012	@Zero Well, your idea is actually quite good. I meant to say that two lasers rigidly assembled side by side firing in concert is meaningless. Lasers which can be focused into one point, however, are remarkably efficient. Huge lasers have the disadvantage of being relatively inefficient compared to smaller ones, so multiple smaller lasers aligned at a single point while still being pulsed would be more energy efficient than one huge laser. This because smaller lasers does far less blooming than bigger ones, and since their power is less, far less of that power is lost by heating up the air. __________________ “The evil that is in the world almost always comes from ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence if they lack understanding.” ― Albert Camus

2012-05-28, 08:25	Link #31547
ZeroXSEED I am no one Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Inside your head	^ Whoa thanks, precisely what I intended. Laser have the advantage of near pinpoint accuracy and far greater effective range than particle beam (see below) Spoiler for Delay time: As particle weapon began it's charging sequence, they emit what could be called containment field, projected form the main weapon to keep particle dispersion to minimum level. They also leaks what called 'charging emission'. As the field and emission came way before the attack (usually at certain fraction of second), this means target can make an evasive movement before the attack even launched. Any I.S. with sufficiently advanced sensor suite can make such calculation and maneuver. They however, does have their own weakness. They're purely heat based weapon, do not impart meaningful kinetic energy. Due to unique properties of energy barrier, which are semi transparent and is ablative, this means laser are less effective than particle beam or even specially-coated physical weapon in breaking through barrier. __________________

2012-05-28, 07:37	Link #31543
demino_hellsin That one guy Join Date: Nov 2011	what if the laser actually turns the air into plasma?

2012-05-28, 08:04	Link #31546
demino_hellsin That one guy Join Date: Nov 2011	then it really would be like a gun, losing energy the farther it travels.

2012-05-28, 08:30	Link #31548
greedyspectator Senior Member Join Date: May 2012	@demi: Larger and more powerful lasers tend to lose energy faster than smaller ones. It's the same concept as the particle accelerator blooming effect, the more the temperature, the larger the blooming. Larger lasers have higher temperatures than smaller ones, and thus bloom relatively faster. Well, all lasers lose energy the farther the target, regardless of size. It's the amount of energy that is different. __________________ “The evil that is in the world almost always comes from ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence if they lack understanding.” ― Albert Camus

2012-05-28, 08:38	Link #31549
demino_hellsin That one guy Join Date: Nov 2011	proposal of design: what if there were 2 particle accelerators? one is a circuit type and the other is the straightway? The circuit accelerator excites a small high density cluster of charged particles, then it runs through the straightway accelerator which covers it in another layer of charged particles... no dice?

2012-05-28, 08:50	Link #31550
greedyspectator Senior Member Join Date: May 2012	Demi: It's doable, nothing in physics says it can't be done, you just have to time it correctly, as the particles leaving the circuit will have to coincide with the deployment of extra charged particles. I'm not sure why you can't just have one particle accelerator and just double the energy and the amount of particles, though. Sounds more practical. But your idea is actually quite realistic, and current circuit designs need a linear accelerator to initially deploy the particles anyway, so that idea is somewhat 'proven' already. __________________ “The evil that is in the world almost always comes from ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence if they lack understanding.” ― Albert Camus

2012-05-28, 08:57	Link #31551
demino_hellsin That one guy Join Date: Nov 2011	that would be the practical... but the idea was that the straightway particles are less dense and have less energy. The high density particles from the circuit hide inside the lose density charge which provide a sort of ablative casing if you will.

2012-05-28, 09:17	Link #31552
greedyspectator Senior Member Join Date: May 2012	Well, your idea's great! Although there will normally be space constraints (circuit-type accelerators are huge after all), IS technology could probably compensate for that. Your weapon would need more than just one linear accelerator, though. You would need one linear accelerator to deposit the charge, one circuit accelerator to increase density and charge, and one final linear accelerator to aim and fire the charged particles. So, two linear accelerators in total. __________________ “The evil that is in the world almost always comes from ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence if they lack understanding.” ― Albert Camus

2012-05-28, 09:22	Link #31553
demino_hellsin That one guy Join Date: Nov 2011	would it be held against me if I conceptualized IS with weapons that may possibly break more than a few rules of science fiction?

2012-05-28, 09:38	Link #31554
ZeroXSEED I am no one Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Inside your head	Go ahead and see if I can help providing 'common reader's standpoint' __________________

2012-05-28, 10:05	Link #31555
MeisterBabylon ~ Your Smile ~ Author Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: 346Pro Age: 38	I listened to this rap: <p>No iframe support, please <a href="http://youtu.be/_3VTIHyl2SA">watch on YouTube</a>.</p> And now I can't stop writing this rap!! (SHOOTING ST@RS, YEAH! Brought to you, by Kougami-P! Shout it out, SHOOTING ST@RS! COME ON!) My name is Gou Karon, GO! My trademark is my V-fin, yo! Always cheerful, always throttle full I trip a lot, gotta be careful! What? Should I make an accident appeal? I don't think my Buster Cannon damaged the school field--? Oh a personal appeal?! Well, 'leader!' that's how I feel! ~~~~~~ Celeste Eisenberg, 10 years old. ._. My body is aged to 15 years though. I cannot smile and I am bad with the bold, My superiors think I'm a failure right through! I may be a faulty cyborg, but I can still imitate hyper-cheerful So I'll be everyone's favorite leader yet! (what the?!) ~~~~~~ Yay, I'm Erika Weber. I'm poor, but I work hard! Still, I have to call it a day, There's a sale going on by the way! I'm may be useless. But I'll be the superpowered leader, no less! (And you're not useless, no, yeah!) ~~~~~~ I'm everyone's idol, Risette! I'm smart, beautiful and great with a sword. The choice is clear you don't have to dither, And for the last time, *I'm not tsundere!!* Nihihi! It's no surprise that I'm the leader. The top of the arena, that's who I am! Even sounds great "Risette the Great Leader, And her loyal servants, Sam I Am!" ~~~~~~ To be continued... __________________ 白露型駆逐艦の４番艦、夕立です。第三次ソロモン海戦では、けっこう頑張ったっぽい★？

2012-05-28, 10:10	Link #31556
ZeroXSEED I am no one Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Inside your head	Len: What Reed: The Ichika: Hell Dan: That's Saruyama & Motemitsu: AWESOME! __________________

2012-05-28, 10:15	Link #31557
greedyspectator Senior Member Join Date: May 2012	@Demi Breaking the rules of sci-fi is fine, really. The rules aren't even codified or written in any standard form, unlike physics. __________________ “The evil that is in the world almost always comes from ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence if they lack understanding.” ― Albert Camus

2012-05-28, 10:20	Link #31558
demino_hellsin That one guy Join Date: Nov 2011	First is an aerial model "SH-Rekku" The machine itself is simplistic with only 3 major features: twin beam sabers: both of which can be used as sources of charged particles due to their independent power source and built-in particle energizers. a pair of aero engines: these are two turbine like engines that are normally mounted on the back, they can be removed and wielded as air cannons. magnetic claws/wings: perhaps the oddest piece of equipment. These are basically two strips of metal with integrated circuits that generate and manage a powerful magnetic field. They are normally stored on the back to generate an electron sail(I have no idea how I can use this as propulsion) or removed to be wielded as a destructive melee weapon. Another odd feature of this machine is that these three parts can actually be combined to create another piece of equipment: twin beam saber + aero engine = ion engines magnet claws + twin beam sabers = high focus energy swords twin beam sabers + aero engines + twin beam sabers = high focus energy cannon, storm cutters energy swords(basically the magnetic claws trap a particle from the beam saber in the middle and exert magnetic force on it to generate a gravity well. The aero engines feed wind to it and generate a localized storm within the sword.). Beyond this is an array of stabilizer wings and boosters. The machine would resemble a bird of prey.

2012-05-28, 10:27	Link #31559
ZeroXSEED I am no one Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Inside your head	Lol, an I.S. with IKEA weaponry? I don't see any problem at that, and few technobabble and very little handwave is required. Certainly does not fit 'hard science' unit, but seriously mesh well with the rest of canon universe, wacky technology and all. In short: Plausible. __________________

2012-05-28, 10:47	Link #31560
demino_hellsin That one guy Join Date: Nov 2011	Second unit "FL-Meikai" a sub-aquatic unit that does its work best under water but can hold it's own above ground. As an underwater unit, it's normal to find propeller engines on it, however the engines this time are oddly connected to the head, along with directing fins. Along the body of the unit is covered in scale like armor which serves a three fold purpose: primary of which is defensive armor plating. Second is their capacity to increase movement in water via vibration. The last function is a last resort weapon which turns each scale into a homing dart. The main weapon of the unit is its spear. The spearhead can split open and reveal a core which can manipulate chemical bonds of hydrogen and oxygen. This allows the spear to compound water even in the driest of places, as well as manipulation of its states.