2010-01-05, 17:50 | Link #6561 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: U.S.A.
Age: 35
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Personally, I always saw the ending of Code Geass as bittersweet. A better world has been created, but many people have suffered and died along the way, even to the end. Can't be all that happy when the main character dies, now can it?
Yes, I suppose you could say it's a happy end since the protagonist got what he wanted (Whoopty damn do. Since when does anyone, especially Lelouch, have a clue about what they want?) but if that's what he wanted was to ensure that everyone he loved would be happy and safe, well...even that's not a foolproof. Yes, he created a world that would be a lot more safer for those he loved (through dumb luck as blade pointed out) but who says that Nunnally won't get assassinated or that Kallen won't be shot by a random mugger? It all just ties into Lelouch's ego and the illusion of control that he thinks he has. Now, this is just my opinion, but the way I see it is you can't give people happiness, they need to seek their own happiness. And you can't ensure that people are going to be safe and alive because existence always comes with the risk of death, no matter what the circumstance. Not that it's a bad thing to want to change the world for the better. I think it's quite admirable to want to change the world so that people, on the whole, can have better lives and not live safer then great. But doing it for just a handful of your loved ones, to ensure that they'll be happy safe (as well as gratifying your own sense of justice to punish yourself) IMO, is doing it for the wrong reasons. Also, what about the people who have already died? Can't really give a future to them, now can you? Code Geass is not a happy story, so it really shouldn't have a happy ending. The only way I could see Code Geass having a happy ending is if they somehow resurrected everyone who had died (particularly Euphie and Shirley) by going back in time or magically bringing them back to life or something and there be world peace and all that, but I really don't see that happening. The Code Geass ending we got was good I suppose, but they just made it so stupid and convoluted. |
2010-01-05, 17:55 | Link #6562 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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yes, not everything is as great as it could be, and nothing is certain in the future but there is a world of difference between the uncertainty of what could happen in the future, and the certainty of knowing lelouch had ended up killing the few precious people he had left, as a result of his egocentric bid for social change the ending, as is, ranges from happy to bittersweet having lelouch's actions result in the deaths of the very people he was trying to protect, would have made it a downer one
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2010-01-05, 18:03 | Link #6563 |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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My theory is that all Lelouch's bad luck was threatening to turn into a giant lizard that would have devoured all the pizza on Earth. Sensing this, C.C. told Lelouch about this cosmic inbalance and together, they devised a plan to use the current state of the universe to their advantage.
It took them a month or so to get their complaint through, but eventually the Powers That Be realized that venting all their frustrations on a single human being for years hadn't been a nice thing to do, and so they gave Lelouch a bag of Pure Luck in the size of the rocks they'd been throwing on him the whole time. And voilą, Zero Requiem. Did I mention I'm perfectly fine with the ending? All right, so I wouldn't have minded if someone had randomly mentioned Clovis a few times to add to the epicness, but... oh well. Can't have everything. And Schneizel not threatening to kill Nunnaly wasn't just luck. He thought Lelouch had turned into a power-hungry evil overlord, after all. So he could have just assumed his brother had gone mad from losing his beloved darling sister, but I think believing that Lelouch was past the point where he'd make a complete turn-around was perfectly legitimate. More importantly, even if Schneizel had threatened to kill Nunnally, he wouldn't have gone through with it (I'm pretty sure Lelouch wouldn't have just given in, by the way). Whatever for? Make Lelouch lose whatever inhibitions he might have left by killing her in front of his very eyes? Hell, he could have faked even that. And Schneizel is pretty much an utilitarian. Killing people when there's no point to it isn't his way of going about things. Suzaku and Kallen.... come on, we know Lelouch has the kind of faith in Suzaku other people might have in God (and the other way around). All right, so it was still risky, especially for Kallen, and yes, some of the points raised in this discussion are perfectly valid, but it's not bad enough to make me so utterly dissatisfied by the ending. In fact, I love it. Not as much as I love Lelouch or Clovis or Suzaku, but I love it.
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2010-01-05, 18:08 | Link #6564 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: U.S.A.
Age: 35
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2010-01-05, 18:20 | Link #6565 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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i mean really... its not like the powers that be are just having fun by playing around with lelouch for the hell of it they are trying to teach him a moral lesson, which he repeatedly refuses to learn stop being a douche stop pretending to be a hero, and BE a hero stop pretending to be the symbol of justice just to advance your own hidden agenda, and BECOME the symbol of justice for real but he refuses to learn every time you accidently get the sense that "the universe screws lulu over" its really just karma knocking on his door and telling him to clean up his act and stop being such a dick (every single thing that happens to him, save for what happens when he is 8, can be traced back to something he did) so instead of learning his lesson and behaving himself, he instead opts to "go out with a bang" instead its nice to know that his character is at least consistent in THAT regard (because the rest of his characterization got shot to hell during the last arc)
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2010-01-05, 18:26 | Link #6566 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: U.S.A.
Age: 35
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2010-01-05, 18:31 | Link #6567 | ||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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Just that the flaws don't bother me nearly as much as they do you, and that I don't go around digging for non-obvious ones. Quote:
Take the Euphie thing, for example. I know you think Lelouch was being a horrible ass there, which is true, but he realized that in the end and acknowledged defeat. Looking at how screwed up and revenge-focused he's been for the longest time, I think that was all that anyone could have asked of him. And what happens? A cute little massacre. Great way to teach a boy with enough issues as it is a lesson. It's like seeing a child run towards a hot plate after having been told that that's bad, waiting until it stops and realizes its mistake, and then shoving it into the oven. Now, the child is not a moral agent and can not be blamed for its actions to begin with, but the method of teaching is about as and humane and effective. Not to mention Lelouch has been screwed over enough in his life to deserve some leniency.
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2010-01-05, 18:54 | Link #6568 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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really ?
he learned his lesson after euphie ? well... what does he do immediately after his geass goes out of control ? you see, learning your lesson, only works if you actually LEARN it if you automaticlly fall back on your old douchebag self when things AREN'T perfect, then you've learned nothing but instead of owning up to what HE did, he BLAMES it on euphie and exploits it to his advantage one would at least hope he'd recognize the sacrifice and at least man up and do what he has to do to the end but he ditches the black rebellion in the middle of the battle, the moment he's at risk of losing something he REALLY cares about see what i ment about pretending to be a hero as opposed to actually BEING one it is at THIS point that i would like to raise my idea of what makes lelouch/zero different then say ... Bruce Wayne/batman in the case of batman, the identity of batman is a means by which Bruce Wayne can act on his true ideology and ethics his civilian ID is a fake persona whicl batman is who he really is batman is a symbol through which he can BE HIMSELF this is NOT the case for lelouch/zero zero is NOT a persona by which lelouch is able to enact his own "real" self instead, the mask of zero is a tool that allows lelouch to PRETEND to be a heroic figure, in order to RALLY PEOPLE TO HIS SIDE zero's stated ideals and Lelouch's actual world view are NOT the same, and lelouch admits this at several points during the story SOME of the views he expresses as zero might be beliefs he also holds on his own, but his real goals and methods are far from his stated ones as zero while, as zero, he claims to champion the weak and fight for justice, lelouch admits that he only created zero for nunnaly, and admits to suzaku that the mask is simply a tool to gather support for his cause THIS is the main thing about lelouch lelouch is not a mask clad hero lelouch is using the mask in order to PRETEND to be a mask clad hero, BECAUSE IT SELLS !!! while his real self is far from it a fact that is demonstrated repeatedly throughout the story
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2010-01-05, 19:12 | Link #6569 | ||
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Zero needs followers. One man cannot fight a war. Just because his stated ideals and own ideals do not match, which is true of any politician (ever heard of PR?), does not mean that the two are mutually exclusive, nor that he was not going to honor the PR deal (which he was, quite explicitly). What's your point? As noted above, most politicians are a far cry from their idealized personae, but this does not change the fact that they do make an effort to make good on the promises they have made, and this is no less true for Lelouch.
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2010-01-05, 19:19 | Link #6570 | ||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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but as later shown, the japanese liberation cause wasn't really what he was after it was a side-effect of it, and if the choice is between a fate of an entire nation of 100 million people, or his little sister... my point was that i could agree with the fact that what he did with euphie was NEEDED if he did it for a greater cause he DIDN'T Quote:
zero is a recruitment tool lelouch isn't running for political office he isn't trying to work as part of the system lelouch is setting himself up as a symbol if justice, and thats the REASON why people follow him they BELIEVE HIM to be something he isn't, but is PRETENDING to be he SAYS one thing, and DOES another and in fact, the things he does are SO completely different from what he says, that the moment his followers find out, they try to kill him
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2010-01-05, 19:21 | Link #6571 | ||||||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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Lelouch has a lot of issues. Sorting them out needs time. Quote:
Lelouch's way of honouring the dead is too keep on fighting, and corpses tend not to care about their reputation. (By the way, what would you want him to do? Hand himself over for punishment, and cause his sister as well as a lot of other people even more grief? That's Suzaku's version of justice, and maybe yours, but not Lelouch's, and not mine.) Quote:
The massacre didn't make him any more psychologically stable, by the way. Quote:
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Lelouch has proven several times that he has a sense of justice, but we already had this discussion, so I'm not going into it again. He's not the perfect hero he makes himself out to be, but Zero is a part of Lelouch, and Nunnally was at least partly a justification - he admits to that. It was him who wanted a place for the weak in society along with his revenge, not his sister - or at least, he didn't do it just for her. Lelouch was meant to be a "modern hero", and that's the way I see him. Not a hero-hero, but someone who has a strong sense of justice that gets muddled by all the shit that has been thrown at him in his short life. Lelouch has always been quicker to call himself a monster than a hero when he was speaking in earnest. That's not because he's a rotten human being, but because this is the impression he has of himself. Someone like him can not have a pure, innocent wish, so he projects it on Nunnally. Episode 5, though, shows that to a not so small extent, he and Suzaku have the same goal and the same reasons - they are sick of seeing people suffer.
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2010-01-05, 19:28 | Link #6572 | ||||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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and i would have him NOT treat his stated goal that inspires millions to his side, like its something to be tossed aside the moment something he REALLY cares about is threatened Quote:
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but thats not really the issue Quote:
but not zero as zero, he IS pretending to be the perfect hero he IS pretending to be a symbol of hope is worlds SHOULD be taken at face value and THATS the difference who he REALLY is, and who he is pretending to be, is the main point and, ironiclly, it is CHARLES of all people who calls him out on this repeatedly
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2010-01-05, 19:35 | Link #6573 |
The black angel
Join Date: May 2009
Location: In Dalaran making laps around the city.
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Does anyone else think that Lelouch opposing Charles and his Ragnarock connection because it forces his good intention on everyone else, when you can't really say that it's what everyone else wants is a bit... hypocritical? I mean, in the next few episodes he starts a war, kills many people then sacrafices himself to "push" people towards peace by getting them to follow the symbol of Zero.
Isn't that really the same idea? I know best so I will manipulate the world into doing what I think is right. In some ways Lelouch kinda reminds me of the story of Prince Arthas Menethil, if anyone here is familiar with Warcraft lore. Lelouch sets out seeking revenge, he believes that Britannia and the way they do things is wrong, he wants to make a better world for Nunally. In the end he becomes what he hates, and I don' really think that Nunally is happy even though the world is a safer place now. Arthas trys to keep his homeland safe, to ensure its security he does things that are very morally wrong and in the end he destroys his kingdom with his own hands after becoming a death knight and murdering his father. What's up with psycho princes that want to "help" the world and bring it to the brink of annihilation instead.
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2010-01-05, 19:42 | Link #6574 | ||||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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He was already pretty unstable when the battle began. I don't think there was any other possible outcome with Nunnally gone - he's no saint who'd throw away his own happiness, his only happiness, for the (questionable) good of the world, certainly not at that point of time. Quote:
Lelouch, though, found his sister burried under his mother's corpse and was then cast away by his father with some very nice parting words. And there was no crime, because his father was the Emperor and didn't give a damn. Oh, and then he was send off to protect himself and his sister in a foreign country, as very much expandable hostages. Yay. Quote:
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2010-01-05, 19:52 | Link #6575 | |||
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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As I point out earlier, if you can honestly tell me you'd let your family die when you had the power to save them but were busy with something of similar importance, then I will take this position more seriously. At the moment, you are faulting Lelouch for trying to protect the only family he has left (not wrongfully so, I must concede, but not rightfully so, either). Quote:
Again, what's you're point about Zero being a recruitment tool? You act like this is so unheard of. People need hope, a cuase they can believe in, and so on. Zero is the personification of that. He's a symbol that can be rallied behind. That his own goals are different is not surprising, unexpected, or even a bad thing, because he always intended to make good on his promises. Quote:
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2010-01-05, 20:02 | Link #6576 | |||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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you dont see how different it is from what he actually DOES ? lelouch is NOT looking at a bigger picture lelouch is looking at a very small, very sweet, wheelchair bound picture. and thats ALL he cares about, if the choice is between freeing japan, and chasing after his sister, then screw japan keep in mind that this battle to free japan, is what the members of the OOBK have spent YEARS fighting for (long before zero came along) risking their lives for losing people they loved for but for lelouch, its just not important enough Quote:
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which is to say, someone who PRETENDS to be fighting for the UFN and its people, while in effect using them for his own goals someone who massacres women and children (even japanese ones) when it suites him in other words, a villain in hero's clothings
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2010-01-05, 20:15 | Link #6577 | ||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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Just because Nunnally came first for Lelouch, doesn't mean everything else wasn't important to him. It just wasn't as important. It's not right, but understandable, and the people he was disappointing never had any chance at all before he showed up. Quote:
Lelouch was planning to achieve what he promised, even if he had other goals besides, and even if he was manipulative about it. But I think I'll leave it at that. To you, Lelouch is an evil prick with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. To me, he's, at the very least, as much a hero as he is a villain, and I certainly think he's an awesome character. Hell, I even like the ending.
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2010-01-05, 20:17 | Link #6578 | ||
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Again, needless overemphasizing of the negative. You think they didn't try to protect those they loved, that they said "looks like my friend's gonna die, his fault"? Please. So what if they've been doing it longer? They sucked at it. Lelouch put just as much effort into into their cause, and he was better at it. For a more recent example, the entire Black Knights sans Diethard, the most pragmatic of them all, was willing to risk everything just to save Kallen. Your attempt to characterize Lelouch as uncommitted to the cause would necessitate labeling the entire army as such. Quote:
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2010-01-05, 20:31 | Link #6579 | ||||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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full stop the moment she reveals that she has her own plans, he has a heroic BSOD and almost quites completely since he's no longer needed japan is still under occupation, its people still suffer but none of that relates to lelouch anymore, since he's involvement in the japanese liberation cause is entirely dependent on a different cause up until ep 7 of season 2, lelouch is entirely focused on nunnaly he says it himself in ep 6, that the OOBK and zero, exist solely for nunnaly's sake Quote:
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are you REALLY under the impression that none of the things that he DID were good reasons ?
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2010-01-05, 20:40 | Link #6580 | |
Senior Member
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