Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[maximilianjenus]

with one arc over, the anime watchers have reached (for some stuff) the same level of knowledge the VN readers have, in this case the true nature of purgatorio >.<

[June 1983]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Isn't that just her character description in the TIPS?

I'm pretty sure it is. It's not the same one that Klash currently has posted in the TIPS thread though, so it must be a different version.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by June 1983

I'm pretty sure it is. It's not the same one that Klash currently has posted in the TIPS thread though, so it must be a different version.

It's the one from Ep2 you're thinking of.

[June 1983]

Ah, that explains it. Of course, the one in the TIPS thread right now is from the ????.

[jeroz]

not sure if it helped in my case that I'd read Onisarashi-hen which used characters in the story as avatars to use in post-arc discussion. I kind of treated the tea party as like the actors taking a break after the performance and discuss the story they partake in. Just when I thought everything will be a chill down from the action-packed part A, bam! Beato arrived and Battler is still himself in the story, and now you know there's a higher dimension going on.
I don't think it is necessary to include the image of Beatrice in the preview, kind of remove the surprise.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Enerccio

May I ask you what an abomination is Beato's voice

What's wrong? Not moe enough for you

[Orophin]

Originally Posted by jeroz

not sure if it helped in my case that I'd read Onisarashi-hen which used characters in the story as avatars to use in post-arc discussion. I kind of treated the tea party as like the actors taking a break after the performance and discuss the story they partake in. Just when I thought everything will be a chill down from the action-packed part A, bam! Beato arrived and Battler is still himself in the story, and now you know there's a higher dimension going on.
I don't think it is necessary to include the image of Beatrice in the preview, kind of remove the surprise.

That was probably what Ryuukishi was aiming for with the Tea Party. When you first see it, you think it will be just like the Wrap Party in Higurashi and then... BAM!

[Beruko08]

In my opinion Beato's appearance in the Tea party is quite necessary and important to the later episodes. With her appearance, you will be given a lot of useful hints behind this massacre but they can also give you a lot of headaches from now on. (Though her first appearance has given me a huge headache enough)

[phizzy]

This episode was all awesome and shit.

[coroloro]

Hmmm.... based on this episode and the previous ones, I personally think that the little girl is "the culprit".

I mean, after all, the little girl is there in the room- the ONLY person- when the people around her die in a previous episode. And she looks like the perfect little evil-witch pawn. Also, couldn't she easily fit her little body through that small gap the door to that closed room allowed- the one that supposedly nobody could enter?

Why does nobody (in the series, that is) seem to note this fact, or are they so appalled by the mere idea that they cannot wrap their minds around it? I mean, she acts like a maniac- and to me, witch-possessed- practically all the time. We're talking pscyho-girl, just like the girls in Higurashi, so... hello? Can we say mass-murderer little girl here?

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by coroloro

Hmmm.... based on this episode and the previous ones, I personally think that the little girl is "the culprit".

I mean, after all, the little girl is there in the room- the ONLY person- when the people around her die in a previous episode. And she looks like the perfect little evil-witch pawn. Also, couldn't she easily fit her little body through that small gap the door to that closed room allowed- the one that supposedly nobody could enter?

Why does nobody (in the series, that is) seem to note this fact, or are they so appalled by the mere idea that they cannot wrap their minds around it? I mean, she acts like a maniac- and to me, witch-possessed- practically all the time. We're talking pscyho-girl, just like the girls in Higurashi, so... hello? Can we say mass-murderer little girl here?

Well, there's the question of just how a little girl kills three adults, you know.

[Sute443]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

If you think about it Bernkastel's powers are very scary, almost godlike.

I don't think her power is that impressive. So what if she can eventually reach a scenario in which she'll win so long as the chance of victory isn't 0%? That doesn't exactly do any good for the people left behind in the worlds in which she failed, now does it? (Unless it somehow does. I haven't played any of the Higurashi or Umineko games yet)

Originally Posted by coroloro

Hmmm.... based on this episode and the previous ones, I personally think that the little girl is "the culprit".

I think you're close, but you're missing a few details. Maria couldn't have killed Kanon, for example, because we know she was elsewhere. There had to be an accomplice.

A little while ago in this thread, I posted my theory for how the events could be explained with human tricks. It was near the end of a page, though, so I think I was ignored. Basically, the mysteries Beatrice presented could pretty much be solved by Rosa having faked her own death and Maria helping her kill everyone else.

[miroku2192]

^Eh if anything it would be someone like Genji. Or Genji and the Grandfather (the name escapes me as of right now...ginzo?)

Anyway, why do i say these two? Simple. Genji can get around, knows the places etc. If Ginzo or w/e was really that obsessed with making "beatrice" come true, then it would make sense that he would want to set up a series of "seemingly" impossible/ unhuman murders. Ginzo could knock on the room with the lock, ask them to unlock it, go in kill both, lock the door, and climb out the window or something, and then come back later acting like he didn't know.

He could also fake the grandfather's death with a fake body that has a fake 6th toe on each one (if they planned ahead). I doubt rosa could fake her death UNLESS the doctor was in on it.

Only question is how they got Maria to believe that it was Beatrice telling her stuff. So perhaps there is a girl tied in somehwere. OH well w/e

[Sute443]

^ Couldn't have been Genji. We know where he was when Kanon died, so he couldn't be the killer. The killer could only be one of the first six killed, Kinzo, or Beatrice. Kanon's death proved that.

Kinzo's death is pretty strong evidence against it being Beatrice. As it was said, she simply couldn't get into his room because of the protective magic. As to Kinzo having a fake body ready, I considered that. I just don't think it's very likely that the makers would use the same trick twice. Feels like misdirection to me.

If humans were responsible for the crimes, Maria had to be in on it. That's why I picked Rosa as the killer; Maria would presumably be willing to help her mother. Maria being in on it would also explain the tone in the letter-in-a-bottle. By making her sound like a desperate victim there would be even less suspicion directed her way.

[jeroz]

throughout the whole arc, other than the servants (+doctor) and Natsuhi, did ANYONE see Kinzo being alive? Also, can the adults hear the roaring from inside the study when they are banging on the door?
just some queries.

[Jan-Poo]

In this arc the people that are shown seeing Kinzo are:

Natsuhi
Genji
Nanjo
Kanon

Krauss has been showed hearing Kinzo's voice.

As for when the adults all go knocking at Kinzo's door after Maria read the letter, it is said that Kinzo didn't answer, so my guess is they didn't even hear him.

[Alair]

Originally Posted by Sute443

So, according to Beatrice there are six mysteries Battler must explain using human means, correct? The letter, the receipt seal, the room locked with the chain, the deaths in the parlor, Natsuhi's death, and what happened to the other people in Purgatorio (or did she mean what happened when they were alive?). I'll take a shot at it (haven't played the game, just put in an order for it on Tuesday).

Spoiler:

Mystery 1: The letter.
There are two aspects to this mystery: Where the letter came from, and how it had Kinzo's seal.
Solution: Maria had the letter all along, and the seal on it was made by creating a copy of Kinzo's ring, probably based on a seal attached to some other document.

I'd be much more inclined to suspect Rosa of putting on a Beatrice dress and then slipping out to give Maria the letter and umbrella. She knew that Maria would be outside in the rain ('cause she told her to stay out there and "only later remembered that Maria takes that kind of thing very literally") and her only alibi is that she "was tired from the trip and fell asleep on the couch". She also wouldn't stop asking about who gave Maria the umbrella, giving everyone extra credence to the idea of the witch really being on the island leading up to the letter.

Mystery 2: The receipt seal.
How did Kinzo leave the room without disturbing the seal?
Solution: It could have happened as Battler said, but there's another possibility as well. Kinzo might have left the room earlier, noticed the receipt, and decided to put it back in the door. It would be surprising if he managed to get it in the exact same location, but so long as he was close, Eva probably wouldn't have noticed.
The most important part of this mystery is that according to the information we currently have a human had to have done it. Beatrice couldn't penetrate the magic protecting Kinzo's room.

Not so inclined to give this one. The seal can't be seen from inside the room and once you've opened the door there's no way to tell where it was positioned. Eva claims it was exactly where she put it when she went back so,

A: Eva is lying for some reason.
B: Battler was right, Kinzo hid when Eva and Natsuhi stuck their heads in looking for him and then exited the room afterwards.
C: Natsuhi lied and Kinzo really wasn't in the room in the first place.
D: Someone outside the room noticed and alerted Kinzo about the seal.

The magic protecting Kinzo's room also doesn't amount to a thing if he leaves there of his own free will for whatever reason.

Mystery 3: The room locked with the chain.
How could someone have killed Eva and Hideyoshi inside the room and yet have everything locked from the inside?
Solution: Sure, an adult's arm couldn't reach through and lock the chain from outside, but what about a child's? Where was Maria when these murders occurred? Alternatively, did Kanon and Kumasawa leave the room unguarded at any time while they were getting the others? If so, then the killer could have hid somewhere (under the bed?) and fled when they went to get the others.

Interesting solution for getting the chain back on the door but I think the second scenario seems a lot more likely. The killer puts the chain on the door, hides inside, and then after the chain's been cut and everyone's left they can simply walk out of the room.

There's still the question of how they got into the room in the first place though. Even if the killer had a key to the room they would have been stopped by the chain and if the killer was one of the first twilight victims that had faked their own death I doubt Eva would have simply welcomed them inside.

Mystery 4: The deaths in the parlor.
Solution: I'm going to invoke Maria again here. She cripples either Kumasawa or Nanjo while the killer strikes Genji. The killer then finished off the three. How did the killer get past the locked door? Maria unlocked the door. Where did the stake(s) Maria used come from? They were hidden in the room earlier. Why are there no bloodstains on Maria's clothes? The killer provided a clean set for her to change into.

Is it really necessary to bring Maria into this? We could just assume the killer had a weapon and stole a key off one of the murdered servants.

Mystery 5: Natsuhi's death.
Plenty of people have addressed this one already, and it seems that it was different in the game, but here goes.
Solution: Natsuhi did fire her gun, but she missed her target. At the same moment, the killer fired a gun at Natsuhi, and didn't miss. Natsuhi would have suffered a lot more damage if she'd been shot by a rifle at such close range.

Fair enough, there are multiple guns. I'm really not inclined to see this one as being much of a mystery either.

Mystery 6: The fate of these people.
I'm somewhat stumped here, as I don't know whether Beatrice was referring to what was happening to them right then or how they had died.
Variant 1 Solution: They were in the afterlife and a half-existing witch did it. Doesn't mean witches exist in the living world.
Variant 2 Solution: Rosa did it. She faked her own death with the first five to be killed and then ran around the mansion killing people with Maria's help. Think about how twisted Maria is; doesn't that suggest that the person who raised her was also twisted on some level?
If Beatrice meant the fate of the final four specifically, then I don't know how it happened. There's just not enough evidence to draw a conclusion.

How'd Rosa fake her death? Her face was one of those which was mutilated to the point identification was made based on her clothes but if that wasn't her body then whose body was it and how it get there?

Another thought: If a witch really was responsible for everything, then how did she get Maria? Maria still had the scorpion charm, didn't she?

It's probably a fair assumption that Maria will do anything a woman who can dress up and act the part of "Beatrice" tells her to do. If dying is a necessary part of going to the Golden Land, no problem.

[sainfate]

Originally Posted by Alair

I'd be much more inclined to suspect Rosa of putting on a Beatrice dress and then slipping out to give Maria the letter and umbrella. ...

I thought the same about Rosa although in episode 1 in the anime at around 20:55, whilst Rosa, George, Battler and Jessica are looking for Maria in the rose garden there is another figure that can be seen behind Battler and Jessica.

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by Alair

A: Eva is lying for some reason.
B: Battler was right, Kinzo hid when Eva and Natsuhi stuck their heads in looking for him and then exited the room afterwards.
C: Natsuhi lied and Kinzo really wasn't in the room in the first place.
D: Someone outside the room noticed and alerted Kinzo about the seal.

I don't think it can be C, because the audience saw that she talked to Kinzo, we need to speculate on what we don't see not on what we do see.

Maybe is not Rosa who faked her death but Eva, afterall I didn't see the doctor touch the body, just George crying on her. All that talking about being happy that she married her husband is probably rubbish and in reality she hates his guts, lol. Also the door had no blood on it when they went to call them the first time, but the blood appeared afterwards.

Obviously I speculate like everyone else, I've only been watching the anime and I'm as confused as anything.

The thing that puzzles me the most is why Rudolf told Battler that he thought he was going to be killed that night, unfortunately he didn't have a chance to talk to Battler about it, but I found it very odd.

[Ttak]

At first hearing (on drama CD) her voice wasn't like I was expecting, but later on, with the 12nd track + anime I felt it was fitting her well. Come on, it was only 1 episode now....

[Vega Lyra]

Very nice episode, although we could REALLY do without the excessive fanservice. Beatrice's voice will need to grow on me, but I think her voice suits the character. We have yet to see how she will hear like in other situations.