What do you think about Communism?

[silent_halo]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Wikipedia is your friend. Well, not all the time perhaps, but in this case, the entry seems to have been fairly well edited. I won't recommend that you rely on it totally your research, but it's good as a "Beginner's guide to the Cold War". I wish I had something like this when I was in school, way back when.

lol. hasn't wiki been around for ages? when were you last in school?

[Fome]

Yeah, China is pretty much communist in name only. In order to compete with foreign markets, they've become increasingly capitalist. There are a few government sponsored businesses, but the communist party doesn't own everything.

[User65554]

@silent_halo, Well, wikipedia has only been around for 5 years or so, and then theres also the avalibility of computers and the internet at large, which has only become mainstream in the past, what, 10 years?

[tkdtiger]

Well there technically hasn't been a true communist country in the sense of a Marxist society, but as for the current form of what a communist society is I have to say the biggest problem is that people become one or two things that prevent it from working...People become lazy and/or they become greedy. I mean if the government supplies ones need why is there a reason to work. Lets face it most Communists countries are not the Marxist idea of a complete Utopian society. Based on his writing the guy was virtually a pure anarchist who believed in no central government, while the modern communist countries are normally created in order to stay in power and actually tends to exploit the very people they need to survive.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Comrade

The title says it all. what's your opinion about this form of government?
Okay, I know, that many (if not everyone) will think of the Soviet Union and will possibly say that Communism sucks. And that isn't what I meant by this.
I am talking about the main idea behind it. Imagine yourself.
Communism =
Free health care
Free education
Equal wages for everyone
No rich and no poor
Fixed prices for various items (For example, a bottle of milk costs the same in every shop)
and more
...

Hmmm, your definition needs some work, but basically, communism == fantasy (just as "free market" == fantasy or "democracy" == fantasy).

You have to qualify such systems and add checks&balances to the point where most *workable* systems probably would be better toasted as "socialist".

ALL systems are subject to failure because you have a small percentage of the population who are certifiably insane and want to be in charge and tell people what to do and take all the stuff they can.
Transparency, checks, and balances help to mitigate this. Most governments be they communist or whatever - fail when those tools are broken.

Originally Posted by silent_halo

lol. hasn't wiki been around for ages? when were you last in school?

"ages" is apparently less than 10 years for you since the Wikipedia was founded in 2001. For most people, "ages" means decades or centuries.

Wiki is an infant even by Internet terms since its been around for more than 30 years depending on when you starting counting.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by silent_halo

lol. hasn't wiki been around for ages? when were you last in school?

I was still in school when Ronald Reagan (yup, he's dead now) introduced the Strategic Defence Initiative (better known as "Star Wars") to the American public. I'm old enough to remember watching Gorbachev on TV, thinking, "Well, he seems like a reasonable man."

Also old enough to remember when my history seniors panicked on the eve of their exams because they had memorised huge chunks of details about the early years of the Cold War, only to find out the next day that the Berlin Wall had collapsed.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by silent_halo

hey i'm just about to learn about the cold war could anyone briefly fill me in?

I started to write a brief history of major Cold War events, but then found this site which looks like an excellent place to start.

For me the key events are:

• After Germany surrenders in 1945, President Franklin Roosevelt, Prime Minister Winston Churchill, and Soviet Premier Josef Stalin meet in Yalta; Roosevelt enlists Stalin's support in the war against Japan in return for acceptance of Soviet control in Poland and eastern Germany
• Churchill's "Iron Curtain" speech in 1946
• the publication in Foreign Affairs in 1947 of George Kennan's treatise on "containment" of the Soviet Union; this becomes the blueprint for Western strategy in the Cold War for the next few decades*
• the announcement of the "Truman Doctrine" which led to military and economic assistance to anti-Communist forces in Greece and Turkey
• the announcement in 1948 of the "Marshall Plan" of postwar economic assistance for reconstruction in Europe
• the Berlin Blockade and the Berlin Airlift in 1948-49
• the West's acceptance of the Czechoslovkian coup in 1948
• the "fall" of China in 1949
• the establishment of NATO in 1949
• the first Soviet test of a uranium bomb in 1949
• the development of the hydrogen bomb (the "super" as it was known) in both countries from 1950-52
• the Korean War (1950-53)
• various conflicts in the China Straits (the Quemoy and Matsu crises in 1954 being the most significant)
• the overthrow of left-leaning regimes in Iran and Guatemala in 1953-54 with help from the US CIA
• Soviet Premier Nikita Kruschchev denounces Josef Stalin in 1956 during a "secret speech" at the annual meeting of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union

(events from here on I can actually remember witnessing)

• the Hungarian revolution and its suppression (1956)
• Fidel Castro seizes power in Cuba in 1959
• the launch of Sputnik in 1957 and the later success of the Soviet Union in placing the first human, Yuri Gagarin, in orbit in 1961
• U-2 overflights of the Soviet Union in the late 50's culminating in the shooting down of a U-2 and the capture of pilot Gary Powers in 1960
• President Eisenhower's embarassment at the 1960 summit with Premier Kruschchev when the U-2 downing was announced
• the adoption by both the US and USSR of the strategic policy known as "mutual assured destruction," meaning nuclear retaliation would be aimed at a country's population and economic resources, not targeted in a tit-for-tat strategy against the opponent's nuclear forces
• President Kennedy announces in 1961 the Apollo project to send a man to the moon by the end of the sixties
• the failed attempt to overthrow Castro in the Bay of Pigs invasion in 1961
• Kennedy appears weak to Kruschchev in their first summit in 1961 which emboldens the Soviet premier to send missiles to Cuba
• the Cuban Missile Crisis in October, 1962
• the Kennedy assassination in November, 1963; the supposed assailant, Lee Harvey Oswald, had lived in the Soviet Union and had ties to pro-Castro groups when he returned to the US
• the Vietnam War (1946-1975)
• the failed Czechoslovakian Revolution in August, 1968
• President Nixon goes to China in 1972
• the development in the 1960's and 1970's of missiles carrying multiple, independently-targeted nuclear warheads with much higher accuracy; these developments raised the possibility of a "first-strike" strategy against the opponent's missiles and bombers and undermined the "MAD" deterrence model
• the US and the USSR sign the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty and the first Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty in 1972
• the Soviets invade Afghanistan in 1979; the war lasts a decade; the US aids the Mujahadeen resistance including a man known as Osama Bin Laden
• the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980 ushers in a new period of tension between the US and the USSR
• the deployment of medium-range baliistic missiles in Europe by both the Soviet Union and the United States; they were dismantled by treaty in 1987
• the US announcement of the Strategic Defense Initiative ("Star Wars") in 1983
• Mikhail Gorbachev becomes the Soviet premier in 1985
• demonstrations against Communist rule in China in 1989 are suppressed in the "Tiananmen Square massacre"
• the Berlin Wall falls in 1989
• the Soviet Union collapses in 1991

These are just some of the events that I can recall as being important. (For instance, I didn't mention Kennedy's "I am a donut" speech in Berlin.**) Please feel free to add the many items I'm sure I missed.

Oh and, silent_halo, I last attended regular classes in 1975 or so when finishing graduate work. Wikipedia was definitely not part of my world.


*I only wish George Bush had adopted a similar policy of containment with respect to Iraq in 2001-2003. In fact, we had a policy of containment in place after Gulf War I that seemed, to me at least, to be working rather well.
**Kennedy actually said "Ich bin ein Berliner" to describe his solidarity with the people of West Berlin. In colloquial German, a "Berliner" was a particular kind of pastry commonly found in Berlin

[CandyVanMan]

Nature proves that an organism is best controlled by its lowest common denominator. That is to say; The human brain is considered the control center of the body, but cell replication, feeding, and healing is all handled through DNA, plasms, and enzymes. If you believe that you can think your way through a broken arm, you are a silly individual indeed. Consider though, you could 'think' your way to death. The brain is fully capable of operating in ways of destruction. Addiction, suicide, dietary choices, and others are all functions of the 'head' of the system.

Society is an organism like any other. Selecting a single head to decide on the functions of the masses is an unnatural and overtly mechanical concept based on nothing more than a superiority complex. Allowing all to function as self contained islands is harmful as well. Rouge behavior often affects the organism like cancer. But even cancer is caused by distorted growth from DNA and not 'disobeying' the brain.

I don't want anyone to live 'just like me'. I am capable of contributing to society in my own way and I desire that my reward in life reflects the deeds I do in the process.

My wife came from Viet Nam. She was a smart and successful school teacher. Then came a time when some officials had decided that her family's wages were "unfair" in comparison with the average. She was subsequently removed from her teaching position to pick rice. Seemingly small price to pay for free education and free job placement. Needless to say, she now lives and loves her life as a 'capitalist' U.S. citizen.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Nice idea but communism in general does not work. In reality communism thought by Karl Marx was never implemented in any other country, countries such as USSR, N Korea, and China are not communist country thought by Karl Marx. Instead all they had was totalitarianism government which isn't close to being communism.

[Kyuusai]

Where the HECK is WanderingKnight? Though he and I have differing opinions in this realm, he is quite knowledgeable on the issue.

Anywho...

Communism requires a willing population with little individual self-interest, a strong social ethic and incredible drive for social advancement, and needs and desires easily met by the normal social output.

Which is to say, it's not going to happen. Not every one wants to work as hard as some, and not every one is satisfied with the same provision. You could perhaps find an authority to try to enforce the social and economic structure when there is individual rebellion, but then you are denying liberty and the pursuit of happiness, even if it's at the expense of nothing but the established system.

That's where Cuba is today. When the government can't meet the needs of the people (or desires, but Cuba's still in the "not meeting needs" state), it is only natural to try to meet your needs through bartering of your goods or skills. That's economic activity, though, and since it threatens the socialist/communist structure, it is punished. With perfect management, Cuba might be able to get by, but the management is horrible. Even with horrible management, Cuba could flourish if every one had the individual liberty to be responsible for their own situation. Would there be inequality? Certainly. Right now, though, every one has an equal amount of nothing. (OK, except those in government, who have what they want.)

Communism CAN work in limited doses on top of an existing free market. Families, churches, charities, communes... there are good examples in each of those categories. Yes, I believe the best type of communism is the voluntary type.

[Potatochobit]

China is a communist country. don't fool yourselves.

just because you can own a noodle shop or ship things overseas for a profit does not mean the government leaders are not communist.

Trust me, the government has their hands in all the profits that are coming in. Why do you think the government is so upset and ashamed of all these product recalls coming from china?

Another way to look at it, though, is to consider them as state taxes. Every government reaches into the cookie jar for good and bad reasons. The government deserves to be paid for their work.

however, what a lot of you younger fellows dont realize is that the freedom to choose what you want is the biggest problem with communism. And china is definitely one of the current biggest offenders on this list.

if your government limited your anime watching time and video game time to 2 hours a day, what would you do? In case you did not know, china has similar laws already in place.

in most of the post stalin communist countries it was against the law to believe in God.

it is currently forbidden in china to tell people about other religions other than the ones the government approves of.

Personally, there are many good sides to socialism. but there are also bad sides.

however, as stated, modern communist states are all corrupt. I cannot think of a single communist country that looks out for the general people's interests, only for their own leadership well being.

this guy hugo chavez looks to be headed in this direction. Considering the current living standard in his country, I can't really say if it's a good or bad thing at this time. however, making it against the law for foreigners to criticize his current government is obviously a step in the wrong direction since silencing his own people is the next step in the process. he is on my fruitcake list.

[WanderingKnight]

Where the HECK is WanderingKnight? Though he and I have differing opinions in this realm, he is quite knowledgeable on the issue.

My ISP decided that, for a while, I wouldn't be able to reach any international server, so I couldn't quite post on the matter In fact, I was about to post something when I came home two hours ago but it didn't get through :/

Well there technically hasn't been a true communist country in the sense of a Marxist society, but as for the current form of what a communist society is I have to say the biggest problem is that people become one or two things that prevent it from working...People become lazy and/or they become greedy.

Yes, but the point is, it's necessary to investigate why do they become 'lazy' or 'greedy'... Simply saying "it's the nature of human beings" and dismissing the idea is a silly answer, in my opinion, as I firmly believe there's a reason behind every way we act, and our behavior depends on the environment we're dependent of. If we can fabricate an environment (that is, a society) where people aren't "prone" to be greedy/lazy/whatever anymore, then, just perhaps...

Society is an organism like any other. Selecting a single head to decide on the functions of the masses is an unnatural and overtly mechanical concept based on nothing more than a superiority complex.

And believing that that defines communism is plain wrong, but it's an understandable response due to the bastardization of the definition of communism that has been used thorough the century. I mean, I heard people calling Hugo Chavez a communist, or even Juan Domingo Peron (an Argentinian president of the mid 40s-50s, who did pretty much what Chavez is doing today and generated a perpetual state of stupidity on the general populace that still persists today)... *rolls eyes*

Which is to say, it's not going to happen. Not every one wants to work as hard as some, and not every one is satisfied with the same provision. You could perhaps find an authority to try to enforce the social and economic structure when there is individual rebellion, but then you are denying liberty and the pursuit of happiness, even if it's at the expense of nothing but the established system.

Then again, it depends a lot on the attitude of the individuals and the way the society perceives things. A violent revolution that brings about a 180 degrees turnaround will never get anywhere, so long as the values from the previous system persist (and they sure do, at least in the Cuban society).

To put it simply, I believe it's a matter of "education". I'm not talking about formal education (grade school, high school, etcetera), but the construction of a determinate mindset that can dispel the "evils" of the so-called "human nature". Maybe I'm too optimistic, but that's what I believe in (and I'm pretty much sure Marx was thinking something about those lines, too).

EDIT:

just because you can own a noodle shop or ship things overseas for a profit does not mean the government leaders are not communist.

And just because you have a semi-totalitarian government that imposes heavy control on the citizens it doesn't mean it's a communist nation, either.

People, let's get this straight: the URSS was NOT communism. China is NOT communism. Cuba is close, but still, it's NOT communism.

Communism doesn't exist, and has never existed.

FURTHER EDIT:

I read something else that caught my attention:

this guy hugo chavez looks to be headed in this direction. Considering the current living standard in his country, I can't really say if it's a good or bad thing at this time. however, making it against the law for foreigners to criticize his current government is obviously a step in the wrong direction since silencing his own people is the next step in the process. he is on my fruitcake list.

For the ntieth time, CHAVEZ IS NOT A COMMUNIST. Chavez is a CAPITALIST. Venezuela is the one of the biggest US' partners in oil trade. The guy is just vying for power.

SINGLE HEAD OF STATE WITH LOTS OF POWER != COMMUNISM.

By those standards, Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy were communist countries, too.

[Potatochobit]

Chavez isn't communist. yet.

If he actually improves the quality of life for the people I'll support him. but it has not happened. the people have the right to all their countries natural resources. he is correct on this point. but when you pocket all the money it

Spoiler:

Makes you...

[WanderingKnight]

What Chavez is doing is (by Marxist standards) turning the populace in "happy lambs", which is what Juan Domingo Peron did back in his time over here. He concentrates an enormous amount of power, imposes limits to the education, and gives benefits to the working class so that they stay as happy, but stupid, gears of the machine.

Don't trust the sensationalist press. He's not a communist demon ready to bring down the US. Like I said, he's one of the US' biggest trade partners. He just wants to concentrate more and more power. It's actually what usually happens in a capitalist society (you know, let the biggest chunk of money win, that sort of stuff )

[Demongod86]

Communism will forever fail. This is why:

I'm a very intelligent professor or programmer or am very skilled in some other specialized field. My lifestyle and my pay is equal to that of the neighborhood bum. You think I'm going to continue working?

[WanderingKnight]

I'm a very intelligent professor or programmer or am very skilled in some other specialized field. My lifestyle and my pay is equal to that of the neighborhood bum. You think I'm going to continue working?

Well, if you keep on applying capitalist standards to other systems, of course your understanding of the true situation will be very, very slim...

[Potatochobit]

when someone threatens to harm your family, yes, you will keep working.

your thinking is too naive. you think people in russia enjoyed slaving away for years on end to receive their weeks supply of toilet paper?

smart people are rewarded with more freedom in communist countries. people will eagerly take your place for it.

and as you have pointed out, because of the negative influences, communism is actually counter productive to growth and development.

[Vexx]

The funny thing is most systems (communist, capitalist, theocracy, whatever) end up looking the same in the end game: a few thugs raking it in from the treasury and manipulating the society to maintain their status quo.

Humanity doesn't seem to have solved the problem of catching and thumping those thugs until way too much damage occurs.

[WanderingKnight]

when someone threatens to harm your family, yes, you will keep working.

your thinking is too naive. you think people in russia enjoyed slaving away for years on end to receive their weeks supply of toilet paper?

smart people are rewarded with more freedom in communist countries. people will eagerly take your place for it.

and as you have pointed out, because of the negative influences, communism is actually counter productive to growth and development.

And your thinking is actually even more naive if you think capitalism gives you true freedom. Money translates as power, and as long as power exists, freedom won't.

Like I said at the beginning, true communism, in the original, Marxist sense of the word, is all about freedom

[Ziv]

I've read the communist manifesto and one interesting thing I noticed is that it addresses the issue of a lack of motivation for people under a communist system, and almost starts explaining why that won't happen, but never actually says anything. It just drops the subject right as it should start giving reasons.

Oh ya, and I really like the part where it says that women should be public property lol.