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View Poll Results: Spice and Wolf II - Episode 9 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 17 | 29.82% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 15 | 26.32% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 18 | 31.58% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 6 | 10.53% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 1 | 1.75% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll |
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2009-09-09, 02:13 | Link #101 |
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Vexx, nice way to cover it as just cartload of near-misogynist crap or an archaic description used to objectify women, but the problem is that the same description is used today as well and is used on both genders by both genders.
We just got involved into discussing woman-virgin because we discussed Horo, but we can discuss man-virgin if that makes you feel better? Or are you saying virginity is not important? I can agree on that. But then how come for some it still is? Seems like the virginity importance is still subjective and it depends on your view of it, just like the whole definition depends on or point of view - is virginity a state of mind or physical occurrence. You cannot deny that virginity exist. Its just view of importance and view of definition is what differs. I view it (the discussion) as another philosophical talk that has no direct importance to or lives and can be consider useless. It is just fun so I see no harm in discussing it even if I personally find it to be of a very little importance. Not to mention that it lead to are rather interesting discussion about the being of existence with Anh as well - as in what constitutes you apart body and mind, and I am eager to hear his answer. Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2009-09-09 at 02:31. |
2009-09-09, 04:45 | Link #102 |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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Personally I don't really understand all this importance placed on the status of being virgin or non-virgin. I mean, does being either/or really have such an effect that men judge a woman's quality over it?
As Vexx said, it's nothing more than a mysoginistic system of classification of a patriarchal age.
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2009-09-09, 05:49 | Link #104 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 35
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All u ve read is just my wishful and naive thinking and it could be that i cant find a woman that thinks the same way as me and that i can fall in love with, but i am still young so i wont lose hope yet^^ Last edited by Mr. Anime; 2009-09-09 at 06:42. |
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2009-09-09, 07:53 | Link #105 |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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I was never really a touchy-feely kind of person and, growing up, the physical aspect of romance slowly lost it's gripping edge as a requirement for a relationship. Granted one must admit that it is virtually impossible to confirm virginity in men as compared to women, but even then for women it's not something you can confirm easily either. Hymen tearing can be lost in a multitude of ways completely unrelated to sex, but even then it's presence or absence is sadly a factor in the way many of us men judge women.
I could honestly care less about having a partner that isn't a virgin, and neither would it be a plus if she were. As I grew older I realized that at the end of the day it's really just a state of mind and a state of relative experience, and the status of virginity doesn't really affect the mental and emotional status of people, unless of course we're talking some sex-crazed maniac but I'm speaking of the normal populace here. I mean, I had friends who were both virgins and experienced, men and women alike, and really the act of sex never really changed them much. They were still the same person in the inside as they were on the outside. One girl I dated but never became my girlfriend is going to get married soon to a good friend of mine and they've done it (well at least they both claim to have lol) and she's still the same dorky girl I've ever known, and he's still the same dorky guy too. People assume that sex changes everything. And while I'm completely green in all that (at 25 and I'm not ashamed to admit it), everything of human relations I've seen tells me that it doesn't garner as big a change as people think. At the most it changes the way they view physical contact, intimacy, relationships and whatnot, but the person there is still the same person you were getting drunk with the night before he became "experienced."
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2009-09-09, 09:10 | Link #106 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Canada
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Remember also, that women often judge men by their virginal status. Being a virgin male in our society is such a point of embarrassment, I've known women that have refused a man they otherwise have strong bonds with because of some twisted sense of shame/embarrassment. It seems to be a strange twist of fate that "empowered" women still suffer from remnants of the kind of misogyny they often vilify. There is a possibility that such hang-ups are a more natural state than we'd like to admit, but I would rather pretend that this is untrue Quote:
Casual sex is simply not the same kind of intimacy that is associated with an intimate romantic relationship. I've known quite a few people who have suffered greatly because they dove into a romantic relationship that was not based on a strong bond and then tried to "make it work". We are flighty and irrational creatures who unfortunately take a very long time to figure such things out. It is nice that Spice and Wolf seems to present an interesting and "enlightened" relationship tale, where the frustration stems from a fear of losing what they already have because they are afraid of their own immaturity or insecurity. If the story progresses in this way, I suspect that they will soon be pushing each other away and some third party will be employed to force/facilitate the issue. |
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2009-09-09, 09:56 | Link #108 | |||
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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Personally I think people don't understand that due to the deep physical intimacy of sex, there is almost no way to separate emotional involvement and a sexual one. People come in with the notion that casual sex is just a one-night stand, but end up leaving with an unexplainable and unerasable emotional "bond" with the other party. The reason I like the duality of their relationship is because it mixes the ideal with the real in a very... plausible manner. God knows I've spent my romantic inclinations on majorly ideal mindsets that I'm still suffering over for almost 10 years, and I've honestly still to get it right, and this show reminds me of the fact that I'm a lot like Lawrence: ideal yet pragmatic. Seeing him develop seems to teach me things.
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2009-09-09, 11:13 | Link #109 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Canada
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Anyway, back to the story at hand.. after re-watching the last few eps I get the vibe that Abe/Fleur/whatever is going to be around for a while. I wonder if she is going to try to steal Lawrence from Horo? In that case, Lawrence will be forced to make a choice and I don't think Horo could handle that just yet |
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2009-09-09, 13:04 | Link #110 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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No sane man could claim I used to be anything but Homo Sapiens since "I" came to be. And yet, no sane man would claim "I" have never been a baby. And despite the drastic changes since then, there's been some continuity between newborn-me and now-me. The truth of the matter is, we don't know if Horo was ever anything other than a giant wolf goddess. But if she used to be a normal wolf, well, that's that - she used to be a normal wolf. And despite the changes, by definition, that normal wolf was her. |
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2009-09-09, 15:33 | Link #111 | |
Senior Member
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But you new-born were not three meters tall with seven legs? No, you had same limbs as now, just smaller. Thus you had a physical continuity with now you (during natural process of growth). The wolf turning to god is abnormality that is not natural thus has no physical continuity. It has same number of legs but size is abnormal as well as ability to transform. You do realize that she has a different body and different mind, so what makes her the same being? If two basic components of her are missing so what claim you can make it was the same being? What makes the succession? Where is continuity? Physical? No way the god-wolf is the same physically as a simple wolf. As mind? A miss again. So what other mean of existence you have in your mind when you talk about succession to claim that they are the same being? Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2009-09-09 at 15:47. |
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2009-09-09, 16:19 | Link #112 | |||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2009-09-09, 16:20 | Link #113 | |
The Anti-Moron
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Its promiscuity related. If she's not a virgin there's a chance she's promiscuous. You would have to judge based on other factors, non of which are 100% accurate. Virginity is a sort of built in certificate of 'Im not a <bleep>'. Anyhoo, I have to go back and read the whole thing since the thread went in this direction and I what i really want to know is: What the heck was that about buying Horo?! I mean, where the heck did that come from? It blindsided me
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2009-09-09, 16:32 | Link #115 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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OR, Horo might have mated with a wolf before, then both her and that wolf became immortal, and they remembered their prior-wolf lives, and they may continue to have sex after that (if they ever lose their reproductive ability), or may be not, nonetheless they are intimated toward each other enough. Another scenario: She may have, after hundreds of mating seasons, so many offspring that were born as normal wolf (of course, you may still argue they are different beings ) and died off. This should happen before any past memory have been shown. She and other "divine" wolves found it painful, thus stopped mating only after. Remember, there's a heap load of supposedly-important things that Horo herself doesn't have a good ideas about. Quote:
I'd just wanted to point out that another "claim" was equally "illogical, cannot-be-denied-or-confirmed" Spoiler for !:
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Darknemo, you have a tendency of making philosophical arguments that basically scare many forums members off, when you yourself know that eventually such arguments (continuity, being, blah blah blah...) definitely make us stuck at the middle of nowhere (like now), when any philosophical argument, which should require tremendous thoughts, is pure-pretentious when carelessly being presented in a ANIME forums, like here. |
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2009-09-09, 16:42 | Link #116 | |||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Oh, and chances are, Horo is fertile - she begged Lawrence for a child, remember? And Deanna said such unions weren't unheard of, though she wasn't speaking specifically about wolf gods. |
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2009-09-09, 16:44 | Link #117 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Canada
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Maybe we should request another forum topic for this debate? Maybe just move some of it to her character discussion board? The episode raised the question of Horo's virginity, so I suppose we could carry out a discussion about that here, but it's gotten way overblown with all of this pseudo-philosophical talk about her nature.
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I know, I know, you're probably referring to someone who really *is* a virgin, instead of just presumed to be one because of a hymen. I just couldn't myself Last edited by BashZeStampeedo; 2009-09-09 at 16:51. Reason: New comment posted while I wrote this one. |
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2009-09-09, 16:50 | Link #118 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2009-09-09, 17:00 | Link #119 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Canada
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2009-09-09, 17:11 | Link #120 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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The point is, Horo may not herself know if she's fertile or not. At best she can be sure about that in case of mating with another wolf-god, not with a human. Though if she has friends who also fell in love and tried to mate with human to learn from, it would be very interesting. Heck, is Lawrence even a virgin in the first place? :P And I noticed I blatantly misspelled the word "patch" |
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