2008-02-22, 04:17 | Link #41 | |
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It would probably be considered a major event when it happens and it would be very obvious to the viewers, probably closer to the end of the show. I think he will "take flight" once he is clear in his heart and mind about what he wants to do. Whether it's to pursue Hiromi or to give her up with no regrets to continue his relationship with Noe, I think it would take something of that magnitude. The doubt in his mind and heart is keeping him grounded, which is what Noe sensed and she then confronted Hiromi because she could tell that Hiromi is the reason that Shin was not trying to fly and look up to the sky. It sounds like it is at least in part a state of mind and being that Noe is referring because she accuses Hiromi of not being able to fly herself, probably referring to Hiromi's own state of feeling trapped and unable to do what she wants. Shin's mother was surprised that Hiromi remembered the conversation. That indicates that she did'nt think it would have caused Hiromi enough pain to remember it. If it was true why would'nt Hiromi have felt this hurt and remember it? That to me shows that Shin's mother herself did'nt place that much importance on what she said and that's why she was surprised that Hiromi remembered it. If Shin's mother did feel it was true then she should have expected that Hiromi would remember such an important revelation instead of being surprised and saying "You still remember that conversation?". Shin's mother did'nt seem shy about harassing Hiromi for the past year over doing errands and household work along with the occasional verbal jab. She seemed content to do that much to take out her hate for Hiromi's mother on Hiromi. I think when Hiromi first moved in that hate was more fresh on her mind and she went too far in trying to hurt her. What she told Hiromi could also be a misdirection by the writers to direct us away from what could be the real reason that she hated Hiromi's mother. Shin's father did'nt necessarily even have had an affair with Hiromi's mother. He could have merely wanted Hiromi's mother over Shin's mother and that could have driven Shin's mother to an extreme if she felt that her husband still had feelings for the other woman long after they were married. It could also be that she was in love with Hiromi's "father" and hated Hiromi's mother so much that she lied to hurt Hiromi as much as possible. We already know that Shin's mother hated Hiromi's mother and has acted spitefully against Hiromi for the past year. Just how deep does that hatred and vindictiveness go? We don't know yet. So you can't really say that Shin's mother would'nt go so far as to lie about it because that would be a judgment on how much or little she hated Hiromi's mother. We do know it is a deep hatred and if it is deep enough we've all seen people do even worse things than what Hiromi's mother did. Especially if the woman in question is the fiery and emotional type in contrast to her husband. If what she said was true then it would be out of place for her to be apologetic as she never felt bad about the harassment she had given Hiromi before in order to hurt her as she felt it was deserved. It makes more sense that she finally feels apologetic because it was something awful she said to hurt Hiromi but without substance and therefore undeserved, because she herself did'nt put enough weight on what she said to make her think that Hiromi would remember it. I think Shin's father is aware of his wife's fiery and vindictive nature and asked Shin because he probably knows that she is capable of going too far with her emotions and her resulting actions. From Hiromi's perspective she had enough doubt about what Shin's mother said to allow her to make attempts to get closer to Shinichiro. Her doubt shows that what Shin's mother said was not definitive and we could already see in episode 2 that Hiromi was thinking to herself "What do I want to do?". The "possibility" of being Shin's sister was enough to make Hiromi distance herself from Shinichiro for the past year until Noe's presence in Shin's life prompted Hiromi to reconsider her decision to seal her feelings for Shin. By not continuing to distance herself and in fact attempting to get closer to Shin we can tell that Hiromi has some hope that she is not Shin's sister. Enough hope that she was not willing to stay away and watch as someone took Shin away from her. What Shin's mother said though is still enough to keep Hiromi in that half-way state that prevents her from revealing her feelings to Shin and that 3-way encounter between Hiromi, Shin's mother, and Shin in episode 6 brought further development of their relationship to a standstill. Hiromi told Shin about it because his mother had caused her to get emotional and the "maybe" part was enough to let her get closer to Shin but not as close as she could if that revelation was'nt there. Last edited by cloudninja; 2008-02-22 at 04:39. |
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2008-02-22, 04:46 | Link #42 |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Lots of good points from Var. One thing, however: the early scene with Noe I was thinking of was when he had a vision of coming down from the tree toward her head, and she looked up at him, then he snapped out of his vision. That vision of her before he had met her is what seemed to me to show a mysterious connection.
In addition, that scene had him coming down to her, rather than the other way around, as in other scenes in ep1, where the angel comes down to help the human. Or to crush him, lol. Ep1 was a long time ago, but many first eps offer clues and context for the whole show, if we can figure out what they mean. Good point about him having been somewhat brought back to Earth. I still see his confession as a take-off, but the idea of Noe eventually handing him over to Hiromi as the only one who can make him fly is possible. However, I think that in his dancing in ep7, he may be beginning to fly. We don't know if Noe's innocent/childish mindset will "fall short" in a dating situation until we see them as a couple. Which we will on Saturday. I think Ai has always been an onee-san to Shin. That makes her confidante role not that unusual. The idea of converting that kind of role to romance is also in KimiKiss, with Mao, where I anticipate the opposite result to here. In rewatching episodes, I was moved by how Ai looked at the dance practice, serving tea. Just a couple of points to cloudninja. Noe said "toberu wa yo!" (You can fly!) That implied to me that he had demonstrated that fact by taking a mini-flight. But I agree that the real flying is to come, when and if he gets a will of his own. Certainly Shinmother could be so full of hate that she says things that damage herself, such as that her husband had an affair. But my feeling still is that she seems too proud of the family to invent such a thing. We'll see, maybe in ep8. And her surprise that Hiromi remembers certainly baffles me, and could suggest she made it up on the spur of the moment. But I still don't see that the likelihood has changed since the idea was first revealed.
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2008-02-22, 06:14 | Link #43 | ||||
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I think he was taking out his frustration by performing the dance with more vigor than usual to let out some stress. Normally he is not into it because he did'nt want to do the dance in the first place. If anything, he is more conflicted than usual during this dance but he used his emotions to fuel his movements. One of the people said "He's finally getting into it" which is not quite true because he was using the dance as an outlet instead of actually being into the dance. It also shows that he is still refusing to believe that Hiromi is his sibling. During this dance, his thoughts were more about Hiromi than anyone else. Quote:
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Last edited by cloudninja; 2008-02-22 at 11:37. |
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2008-02-22, 07:55 | Link #44 | |
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I didn't pay too much attention about the dancing because I knew Shin didn't want to do it, but I kind missed this big hint about Shin's mindset because I myself didn't pay much attention to that (thanks to cloudNinja for bringing it up). The only reason that shin went to see Noe the second time was because he thought her curse might be true and he didn't want to take chances with it being true, so he made the chicken from the tissue box as a gift, so she would remove the curse. Silly, but that tells you how desparate Shin was that he wouldn't even take chances with suspectitions. |
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2008-02-22, 13:43 | Link #45 | ||
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"True Tears", "True flight".... they're supposed to be some sort of metaphor, aren't they? But why are people making such a fuss about them? Heck I don't even know what they really stand for anyway(Flight=spiritual/social progression!?) Did I miss something here
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OK, for how long has there been the impression that Noe's being eccentric also means she's an immature/superficial person who can't properly handle romantic relationships? I never thought she was childish anyway (OK that was a lie) (unless you insist that singing sth random is childish) , Noe's just being peculiar and unique in her own way the name Haruhi immediately comes to mind. She also knows how to engage in serious talk/logical reasoning as we've seen so far, plus she seems to have a surprisingly good grasp of others' feelings, which is another point for her. I sincerely hope you didn't judge the book by its cover and jump to the conclusion that Hiromi would always be a more serious/compassionate/sophisticated love interest (Well I wouldn't want to be around a liar for whatever the reason, and I haven't seen much evidence for that one too, unless you insist her troubled situation, conflicting thoughts & keeping a distance from Shinichiro are any kind of hints). I firmly believe Noe's more than just a plain pretty doll. It could be that my real-life relationships have had an effect on me, but hopefully the writer won't let me down. It'll be very disappointing, however, if Noe turns out to be only like what you said. |
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2008-02-22, 13:54 | Link #46 | |
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And while it could have been spur of the moment and caused from hatred, she seems quite adamant about not letting Shin and Hiromi be seen together. She also says it in a way that seems like its not so much about the idea of them dating/some such but more of letting others see them together. Which, I would think, hints at something not right about them being together or seen as an 'item'. |
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2008-02-22, 14:31 | Link #47 | ||
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Last edited by cloudninja; 2008-02-22 at 14:44. |
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2008-02-22, 14:55 | Link #48 |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Shin actually did mention Noe in his interior monologue during the dance. But his frustration/confusion over Hiromi was the main reason he was so angry and could get into the true energy of the dance. The stimulus to a better performance was anger and confusion. They revved up his engine and helped him start to fly, it seems to me. If he dances like that at the festival, Noe is going to be head over heels.
"Flight" is a pretty simple metaphor, as far as I can tell. I think it refers to not remaining a docile character like Jibeta, but being someone with will and aspiration and daring. Of course, Jibeta's docility probably diverted attention away from him so the tanuki got the flying Raigomaru instead. By the way, so far it appears that Noe nailed Hiromi when she said she couldn't fly. But maybe Hiromi could fly if she was released from her prison at Shin's place. The biggest and most dangerous release would be if she really starts to like and follow Jun. As for the "true tears," I'm still trying to grasp that. There is the story of her grandma taking away her tears so she wouldn't cry, and Noe on a quest to take someone else's tears -- so she can cry herself, I think. I haven't seen Jun cry, either, so I guess he may need some true tears, too. At least we know that just about everyone will be crying by the time this is over -- from despair and/or from joy. I see Noe's weird/intuitive/wise side as being just as prominent her childish/natural side, but I do see both. In any case, we're not talking about marriage here, just going out. Despite our rationality, I think we are all seeing things through the lens of which girl we most like. I plead guilty, anyway. As for Shinmother and her feelings/attitude toward her husband, I think she had 15 years to beat him up over the matter and had probably settled into a normal life. Her intense feelings for her son may be a redirection of her original love for her husband, which has settled into a life partnership rather than a romance. However it all turns out, I'm loving this show. So many possibilities, more with each passing episode, at least up to now. If anyone here hasn't seen the same director's Simoun, I highly recommend it for just this sort of complexity and emotion, as well as great music and beautiful animation (of a different style). Although the setting and situations are quite different, and may put some people off, they also involve painful romances (mostly yuri).
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2008-02-22, 16:58 | Link #49 | |
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Spoiler for contains mention of events up to episode 7 to support theory. I only use events that have happened so far, no outside sources, basically what anyone can see by watching the first 7 episodes. Spoiler tag for the benefit of those who aren't up to date with episodes or don't want to read my theory:
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2008-02-22, 17:39 | Link #50 |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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To give credit where credit is due, cloudninja, when I posted about ep1 I was thinking of your previous post on the relationship between it and the rest of the show. Excellent summary of a logical theory. I'm still looking for alternatives, but this is a great basis to go on.
I do think that Noe now being in love with Shin complicates her simple mission of selflessly helping him fly. But she is certainly more like the figure of an elf or an angel than like a normal girlfriend. Maybe that's why I prefer her. One problem with the scheme is that grandma said you can only take tears from someone very dear to you, and Hiromi does not qualify for Noe. And there's a question in my mind when Shin says "That's going too far," (doko made katte no koto.... "How far are you going to go with your selfishness/unilateral decisions?") whether he is thinking of Jun depriving Hiromi or just of the mechanical "deal" that he doesn't like in the first place. I like your point about wrong reasons being a theme. Not that I actually agree with it in real life, since things keep changing inside us as life goes on. Another theme I have thought about is indeed the danger of the normal white lie. Don't agree with that IRL, either, except when things go too far, as they are going here. This kind of cautious social deception seems even more common in the Far East than in Europe, Britain, or America, so it makes sense to me for the authors to make it a theme.
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2008-02-22, 19:11 | Link #52 | |
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I'd have quoted the longer post but this suffices. It was a good post and alot of the points you made were excellent, but, and this is simply what I gathered from it, you are looking at it on only two fronts. Hiromi and Noe. The show, however, is no longer two fronts. It's now three. If it wasn't for Aiko, I'd have probably agreed completely with what you said, but now I am not so sure that things will develop so simply. Just like a math problem, two dimensions is simple, throw in that third and shit hits the fan. |
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2008-02-22, 19:31 | Link #53 | |
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I wish I could offer an alternative theory for you, Kaoru Chujo, but I'm afraid that I (for the most part) concur with cloudninja here. The first episode, and the events that follow, do lay out the theme pretty clearly and unambiguously. The show has a lot of plot twists, but the theme has remained constant. So that's why I've been a bit surprised to see (in general) people's opinions of the show and where its going change so dramatically with every episode. This is the sort of tunnel vision that it seems easier to fall victim to when you watch the episodes week-by-week; you sometimes tend to get carried away by the latest twist, and lose sight of the "big picture" and how things connect to each other.
(I find the people who post "odds" after each episode particularly humourous, especially since the odds change so dramatically from week-to-week. The "odds" in anime aren't determined by the week-to-week, they're (almost universally) decided in the first episode. There's only one quasi-exception I can think of, and it is not Canvas 2 (follow the theme/message, not the twists). In this show, I would definitely argue that nothing that's happened so far has changed the odds one bit.) Quote:
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My personal feeling is that that's being a bit too easily swayed by plot twists. Aiko is a perfect illustration of the theme and a very obvious lesson for Shinichirou (don't go out with someone you don't love just because you think it's what the person you do love wants). So I think this will trouble him, but ultimately I assume it'll part of what pushes him to "do the right thing" with Noe. So I think it's an essential plot development, but I see it as reinforcing the theme/message rather than swaying it in any particular direction. Of course, as with all speculation and theories, we can only wait and see to be sure! |
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2008-02-22, 20:16 | Link #54 | |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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I'm probably an intellectual convert, but I still prefer the angel, lol.
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For an East Asian society, the theme of "the trouble with lies" is a very important one. Some societies may be too up-front and cause conflict by their brutal honesty. Not Japan or China. And I'm still hoping for depth in Jun that makes him not the cardboard villain he has been portrayed as. And six episodes is still a long time.... Wonderful show. I have some confidence they will be able to maintain the emotional depth without getting too doramatic. But endings are the hardest part. By the way, I'm loving this thread, people.
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2008-02-22, 20:49 | Link #55 | |
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Basically, all the relationships in this show are triangles that converge and overlap in various ways:
But yes... I doubt he's going to end up as a "cardboard villain". I imagine they'll clarify his motivations as this charade with Hiromi goes on. |
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2008-02-22, 21:02 | Link #56 | |
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Also, she only interacts directly with Shin but not with Noe or Hiromi and to me that's another point of separation compared to the other two girls as she is unlikely to get into "fights" over Shin (catfights get points from me ). It would'nt surprise me to see another one as jealousy flares up. Shin only sees her when he goes to her shop or for dance practice which is'nt everyday and I expect the situation to be awkward enough that he'll probably avoid her for a while. Shin sees the other girls everyday(Hiromi) or almost everyday (Noe). Finally, I think her situation with Shin will be resolved relatively soon as the odds of her being in the endgame will be very low because of the importance of Noe and Hiromi to the story as shown in the first episode. I don't think Aiko will want to prolong this awkward situation and my guess is she will give up within 2-3 episodes if she sees little chance of progress with Shin. Her kiss/confession was cathartic but it won't take long before she realizes what her chances are. She would rather try to get back to being his friend than not be a significant part of his life. She may even counsel Shin on following his heart. Does she have a chance? I guess she has an outside shot, but I'm not going to worry about longshots. It happens sometimes but not often enough that I'm going to lose any sleep over it. I actually see a much better chance that after giving up on Shin she can have a fresh new start with Miyokichi. I think Miyokichi will be there for her unconditionally even if she does'nt return his feelings at first. If Aiko cries over Shin it'll probably be Miyokichi who will be there for her instead of Shin since Shin has his hands full with the other girls. I don't think Miyokichi would take advantage of her and he would give her as much time as she needs before moving on. Spoiler for above:
I'm not expecting my predictions to be right on the money but the general theme and tone was set in the beginning so I would be happy to be mostly correct. The major themes might be predictable but the show does an amazing job of execution all around so far. A true gem if the show maintains its quality to the end. Last edited by cloudninja; 2008-02-22 at 21:16. |
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2008-02-22, 21:06 | Link #57 |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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One statement that makes me think he is not her biological brother is when Shin said he looked like her and he said "not at all."
The chin-strap scene hinted at something, all right. Symbolically, so did Noe's pantsu and embracing him in the first scene at home. Maybe he refuses to take advantage of her, even without the biological bar. And maybe the hints are misleading in some way. "It's okay to change. In fact, you can't not change." Even though he's probably at most two years older than she is, he is like her guardian, her substitute parent, since her father is dead and her mother is off working somewhere. Complex. As for Ai and Nobuse (I'm using given names for everyone), them getting back together seems too neat and obvious to me, at this point. I guess that befits secondary characters, but in prospect, it seems a bit lame. Maybe my feeling there is because I find him too silly. Here's hoping that his recent disaster continues to deepen his seriousness, to go with the "nice guy" aspect that he's had all along and that became even stronger in the classroom there with Shin in ep7. But I agree with cloudninja in not expecting Noe's situation with Shin to be prolonged. I am happy to be surprised, however, as long as the emotions make sense.
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2008-02-22, 21:56 | Link #58 | |
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2008-02-22, 22:15 | Link #59 | |||||
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As for her standing in Shin's love, that too is much like her role in the story. He never looked at her romanticallu nor knew of her romantic feelings. This, however, is not bound to change whether he likes it or not. So while it is true that she is not in Shin's love that has been portrayed prior to Ep.8, like the other two, she may or may not make her way into it now. I find it interesting that she had been a third wheel for both Shin and the story (to the viewers) but now she will be seen in a different light by both Shin and the viewers. Which I find interesting in how it came about, especially with the significance of her last words in 7 that tie right into this. It could, of course, all be there for other reasons... Quote:
Golthin made a point before that if Shin does start to avoid Ai, he will come to notice just how much she supported him through his tribulation of emotions. Which can be a significant boon to her character and chances, and would be something that no one else has (we already know of this fact, but Shin does not/has not realized it). Quote:
I also have to partially disagree or more, change how you worded something. I think that Ai already knows what her chances are and that is why she acted. In seven she saw that the one oppurtunity she had so long waited for disappeared in a flash, forcing her to take a new approach. (This is really one reason I like her, she changes in a very interesting/realistic way unlike the other characters. She is more dynamic I suppose.) I do not see her simply resigning to be just a friend. Bottled up love, just like rage, does not simply poof into thin air. Especially seeing as how far she has gone in one episode (7). Quote:
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Phew, lot of typing. EDIT: I'd say that Nobuse's relationship (a serious one) with Aiko is done, unless they pull off some miracle but I don't see the time to make it anything more than 'you win because you came in second'. This may actually help Nobuse open his eyes, this show has gone on the point that obsession/inertia is not a good thing. Nobuse is inert and obsessive, he's not very different from Noe but on the opposite spectrum. |
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2008-02-23, 01:22 | Link #60 | |
Some dude
Join Date: Feb 2008
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I agree with you as there's hardly any way they can pull it off without making it look manipulative. Ai being in her situation right now is all because she was foolish enough to agree to go out with Nobuse in the first place. Very manly though he may have handled it, he should stop building up false hope and accept the harsh cold truth that he and Ai together just don't click and don't work, unless they insist on lying to each other, and by doing so, lying to themselves. Nobuse is a strong person so he'll learn to forget about her in time, and then be able to move on. Though I'd love the writer to prove me wrong and let them end up together , especially after seeing he say "You're the only one for me" so earnestly (that were I Aiko, I'd feel so guilty)
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Spoiler for It could be that Jun is actually a:
Sweet, now we have double incest Just kidding. Much as I hope for Jun and Hiromi's relationship to work out, I want Jun to maintain his image as a composed and mysterious number 4 rather than some interior monologues just to satisfy some viewers' curiosity BTW, I'm having considerable difficulty fully understanding the concept of "A takes B's tears away, B takes C's tears away, A helps B take C's tears away, A gains her own tears and becomes able to cry..." Why? Because of an idea that abstract & metaphorical being used in way that's really, really, not meaningful at all. Or perhaps it's just me being silly. Last edited by greyhawk; 2008-02-23 at 04:53. |
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