Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[monster]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

They had a nuke stashed in ORB to blow all their stuff up

That wasn't a nuke. You need NJC for nukes to work.

and had the 3rd largest military force in the world.

You don't know that, there are still other countries.

Which says a lot since they were an independent country that had the power to fight the Feds and ZAFT toe to toe despite them being the collection of many peoples, countries, PLANTS, and ect.

It certainly did not have enough power, otherwise it wouldn't have destroyed its own mass driver.

ORB knew that eventually the war would arrive at their footstep, they chose wrong and all the lives lost will always haunt Cagalli because of her father's stupid pride.

And yet, as Destiny showed, he was proven right.

[Rising Dragon]

Morganroete's destruction wasn't caused by a nuke. If it was it would've wiped out the entire island and not just the facility and mass driver.

[Aquaman OS]

Uzumi correctly predicted that the war would turn completely genocidal. In fact he was watching the broadcast of the results of that battle where Zaft took over that one base and took no prisioners, killing everyone there who was a natural, whether they were surrendering or helpless or not. And since EA was under the control of Blue Cosmos and they had just picked up the survivors of a battle where they wiped out the non Blue Cosmos people obviously they couldn't be trusted either.

Uzumi couldn't take a side. Not only would he be throwing half his population under the rug, but he'd be supporting the continuation of the war which would end up in mutual destruction. So he instead sacrificed everything to get the TSA started to go up and stop the war. Because if they didn't, well...Azrael would have nuked the Plants instead of the Genesis facility and Patrick would have in turn Genesis'd the earth wiping out both homeworlds and dooming everyone, assuming the survivors didn't kill each other first.

Now Orb did break their neutrality once or twice in small amounts by sheltering AA. But that wasn't an issue. When EA invaded Orb not once did they point out that Orb had already helped them so they should help them again. In fact Azrael specifically went there with wiping Orb out and testing his new Gundams in mind, and was very happy when they refused to cooperate. So really, EA had their number anyway.

And as mentioned joining Zaft at that point would have been foolish because he'd be inviting soliders that gleefully slaughtered every Natural to the last man into his country where many of the population are naturals. Not to mention Uzumi was a natural himself so dealing with the Zala regime would have been nigh impossible long term.

Meanwhile in Destiny the Seirans were just in league with Djibril for their own personal familys power. They didn't really give a damn about the whole NaturalxCoordinator thing.

[quagmire]

I can't believe someone is actually saying a country that decides to stay out of a war is wrong( there are exceptions, but discussing them would be off topic).....

And with the whole power thing, even Uzumi recognized the hypocrisy of it, but correctly stated that they need power in order to defend their ideals or else they would pushovers of the countries that have power. It's sort of like nukes.... You have them, but it's a power that is used to deter a country from messing with you. Not a power to use against your enemies all the time.....

[Destined_Fate]

You know what I mean, they had a WMD hidden in ORB and used it after they had got themselves pushed into a corner because of their arrogance and refusal to accept outside help.

Yes they were wrong. It's just like the USA was wrong when we let the Libyans suffer when we could have easily changed things. ORB should have done more, instead they closed themselves off from both sides and were content letting them kill each other while they watch from the sidelines despite all the power they had to make a difference. Where was ORB after the Feds nuked PLANTS before SEED? Last time I checked ORB had Naturals and Coordinators why didn't they ally with ZAFT after they were attacked in such a heinous way to show that not all Naturals supported their complete destruction and a unified front?

No, ORB was arrogant and assumed that ZAFT was just as dirty when they got nuked, Bloody Valentine, and refused to have anything to do with them or to support the Peacekeeping majority leaders in ZAFT that tried constantly to end the war on equal terms with the Feds. If ORB had swallowed their pride for one second and used their heads than the war wouldn't have gotten anywhere near as bad and it wouldn't have turned into a race war.

Since ORB had the largest concentration of Natural and Coordinators living in harmony they had a duty to show the world this instead of keeping to themselves and hopeing both sides will figure out that everyone is still human. Instead ORB did nothing and their leaders hated the war because it turned into a Race War which they allowed.

Well gee, maybe they should have actually said something and showed that it isn't Natural vs Coordinator and both can exist together? No, that would require using their brains and not blindly following their pride and isolation strategy. Thus they did nothing and didn't bother begging the Feds to leave them alone until they were already at their doorstep and very angry.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

You know what I mean, they had a WMD hidden in ORB and used it after they had got themselves pushed into a corner because of their arrogance and refusal to accept outside help.

Yes they were wrong. It's just like the USA was wrong when we let the Libyans suffer when we could have easily changed things. ORB should have done more, instead they closed themselves off from both sides and were content letting them kill each other while they watch from the sidelines despite all the power they had to make a difference. Where was ORB after the Feds nuked PLANTS before SEED? Last time I checked ORB had Naturals and Coordinators why didn't they ally with ZAFT after they were attacked in such a heinous way to show that not all Naturals supported their complete destruction and a unified front?

No, ORB was arrogant and assumed that ZAFT was just as dirty when they got nuked, Bloody Valentine, and refused to have anything to do with them or to support the Peacekeeping majority leaders in ZAFT that tried constantly to end the war on equal terms with the Feds. If ORB had swallowed their pride for one second and used their heads than the war wouldn't have gotten anywhere near as bad and it wouldn't have turned into a race war.

Since ORB had the largest concentration of Natural and Coordinators living in harmony they had a duty to show the world this instead of keeping to themselves and hopeing both sides will figure out that everyone is still human. Instead ORB did nothing and their leaders hated the war because it turned into a Race War which they allowed.

Well gee, maybe they should have actually said something and showed that it isn't Natural vs Coordinator and both can exist together? No, that would require using their brains and not blindly following their pride and isolation strategy. Thus they did nothing and didn't bother begging the Feds to leave them alone until they were already at their doorstep and very angry.

When did it become Orb's business to pick a side of two other independent nations? Why is it their business to mettle between two countries disputes? Coordinators and Naturals went to Orb for the sole reason to escape the war( aka Kira's parents).

As for accepting help from ZAFT, how would that look to the Earth Forces? It would completely validate why they went to war with them. When they gave their ultimatum to Orb, it was stated that refusing to join the Earth Forces, they would perceive them as supporters of ZAFT when they were not.

When did it become acceptable for a country to bully and attack another nation because they refuse to enter a war they want nothing to be a part of? Just because Orb refused to join the Earth Forces( along with refusing to join ZAFT), doesn't give the Earth Forces the right to go and attack them over it. That line of thinking is down right disturbing to think that you find it wrong that an independent country wants nothing to do with two other independent countries dispute.....

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

You know what I mean, they had a WMD hidden in ORB and used it after they had got themselves pushed into a corner because of their arrogance and refusal to accept outside help.

No, because you're using the wrong term. A weapon of mass destruction is far more destructive than what was used to bring down Morganroete's facilities--we have many weapons today that are capable of completely obliterating a building and they are not considered weapons of mass destruction. If Morganroete thought what ORB's ruling council wanted (the destruction of the facility to prevent the theft intellectual and physical property) was for the best and went through it, it's their own right to do so. From a business standpoint I doubt Morganroete would've been okay with other weapons and technology manufacturers siding with the EA stealing all their technology, and from a war standpoint failing to do so would've resulted in a much quicker escalation of deployed weaponry. Again, this does not mean what they used to destroy the facility was a weapon of mass destruction--we've already seen that mobile suits like the Strike are equipped with weaponry far more powerful, like the Launcher Strike's Agni cannon.

[Aquaman OS]

I think you're seriously over estimating Orb's power. Before AA showed up they had like 20 Astrays that didn't even work properly. And that was based off of data they stole from EA's project. Most of the TSA's firepower came from stuff from Zaft and EA defectors. All Orb contributed was the small amount of Astrays Kusanagi and Strike Rouge. And even then, despite being a third faction which meant the other two sides were inadvertantly drawing some fire off them, all their MS's except for Rouge were wiped out, and all 3 ships were severely damaged.

And when the war first broke out? They had nothing but sea battleships and fighters. They had nothing to contribute to Zaft even if they wanted to help them besides bodies. Bodies that didn't want to be part of the war, hence why the went to Orb.

In Destiny yes they had a fair amount of military power. But in Seed, especially early Seed, they had little.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

I think you're seriously over estimating Orb's power. Before AA showed up they had like 20 Astrays that didn't even work properly. And that was based off of data they stole from EA's project. Most of the TSA's firepower came from stuff from Zaft and EA defectors. All Orb contributed was the small amount of Astrays Kusanagi and Strike Rouge. And even then, despite being a third faction which meant the other two sides were inadvertantly drawing some fire off them, all their MS's except for Rouge were wiped out, and all 3 ships were severely damaged.

And when the war first broke out? They had nothing but sea battleships and fighters. They had nothing to contribute to Zaft even if they wanted to help them besides bodies. Bodies that didn't want to be part of the war, hence why the went to Orb.

In Destiny yes they had a fair amount of military power. But in Seed, especially early Seed, they had little.

Did they really steal the data? I mean they did build and help develop the Strike, Duel, Blitz, Aegis, Buster, and the Archangel. I don't think Orb( or at least the small faction that lead to Heliopolis helping out the EF) would do all that work without benefiting from it as well.

[Aquaman OS]

They helped them build them, but kept the data and made their own variants. That wasn't really part of the deal with EA. Hence they stole it.

[Kirayuki]

Do we even know the whole agreement with EA though ?

For all it worth, there is a possibility that ORB might put some kind of conditions in exchange for helping them build those units.

[Zeydra]

Latest remaster episode is out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfK8aMX7nOA

Not much new material from what I saw, just a few bits here and there to smooth the action over and so on. Still, that episode doesn't really need new material, it's awesome enough as it is.

[monster]

Awesome indeed, it got me hyped for the next episode.

Anyone know the name of the last music before the ending theme?

[Zeydra]

Originally Posted by monster

Awesome indeed, it got me hyped for the next episode.

Anyone know the name of the last music before the ending theme?

It's track 13 of the third OST, the Romanji name of it is apparently Suishou no Hiiru, some of the translations I've seen floating around are Secret of Birth or Birth of Secretion (the former being what it's called on Youtube, the latter being from the tracklist on VGMdb).

One of my favourite tracks from the series, if not my favourite.

[monster]

Thanks, and yeah, it's definitely one of my favorites.

[RES-01 Perses Gundam]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Yes they were wrong. It's just like the USA was wrong when we let the Libyans suffer when we could have easily changed things. ORB should have done more, instead they closed themselves off from both sides and were content letting them kill each other while they watch from the sidelines despite all the power they had to make a difference. Where was ORB after the Feds nuked PLANTS before SEED? Last time I checked ORB had Naturals and Coordinators why didn't they ally with ZAFT after they were attacked in such a heinous way to show that not all Naturals supported their complete destruction and a unified front?

You are trekking on very grey territory. The notion that the US was wrong to let the Libyans suffer, thereby blaming the US for the atrocities that Gaddafi committed, is ridiculous. You can't simply consider US foreign policy in a moral context. Besides, should the US intervene, it would have to dispatch US soldiers, thereby risking the lives of thousand young American troops whose life could be put to better use.

What power of Orb do you mean? The technology that they possessed that could enable either sides to perform even more genocidal acts? It's Orb's way of securing their own technology, in order to defend their own sovereignty, and to prevent a possible escalation of a conflict they see no point in. And Orb didn't watch from the sidelines. It's just that Orb lacked the necessary power to put an end to this futile conflict. Only when certain factions within the warring parties (e.g. Clyne faction, Archangel) offered their support to Orb did it satisfy Uzumi who promptly ejected, literally, Orb into the conflict. (hint: an Orb vessel finally went into hostilities other than reasons pertaining to their sovereignty)

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

They helped them build them, but kept the data and made their own variants. That wasn't really part of the deal with EA. Hence they stole it.

I don't think they stole them at all. I think its more likely Orb already has them, and only assisted EA in producing their own mobile suits, hence Cagali's disgust in the 1st episode upon witnessing EA mobile suits.

Unfortunately for the NATURALS and ORB, the mobile suits never had a workable OS until Kira piloted the STRIKE and later helped ORB create an OS suitable for NATURALS. The EA, I assume, acquired data from Kira's battle records.

- Tak

[Rising Dragon]

They did. Basically, the Sahaku Family used ORB resources to assist the Earth Alliance in creating the Duel, Buster, Blitz, Aegis, and Strike, and then took the data to create the Astray Red, Blue, Gold, Green, and Mirage Frames alongside them for ORB's personal use.

And then ZAFT showed up and everything went to hell.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

They did. Basically, the Sahaku Family used ORB resources to assist the Earth Alliance in creating the Duel, Buster, Blitz, Aegis, and Strike, and then took the data to create the Astray Red, Blue, Gold, Green, and Mirage Frames alongside them for ORB's personal use.

But here is the question.

To what extent was the agreement that would classify Orb's actions as stealing?

Because when military cooperation reach this level, usually both sides would possess sufficient data to create replicas or variants suitable to their needs. This happens a lot in real life.

After all, if Orb did not receive sufficient data to assist the EA in creating their own mobile suits, how would they assist the EA in the first place?

- Tak

[Rising Dragon]

Well, to the extent that Morgenroete felt it best to try and destroy the entire facility on Heliopolis when ZAFT showed up so that there was no evidence that they created their own mobile suits, which failed since Rondo Ghina Sahaku interfered to recover the mobile suits. So if Morgenroete was going so far as the make sure no one found out they made the Astray Frames, I'm pretty sure it wasn't in their agreement with the EA.