Higurashi Spoiler Discussion (for people who have read the clues/finished the series)

[Rias]

If she was truly crazy, they wouldn't have to spend so much time explaining her rationale, and show her inside feelings in Matsuribayashi-hen to contrast her actions in Minagoroshi-hen (Takano trying to get Tomitake to join her side, Matsuribayashi vs Minagoroshi version). As the story has explained, she's just "crazy" because of her traumatized childhood, sense of desire to repay Hifumi, and her intrests in occult stories. She's quite normal when they showed her inner emotions.

As for the disease, it's established that it could not be used outside Hinamizawa, and thus deemed useless by Tokyo. That's the reason why the whole operation was getting shut down and she had to hurry/change her plans to prove to the world that Hifumi's work was genuine.

[gibits]

Originally Posted by Rias

If she was truly crazy, they wouldn't have to spend so much time explaining her rationale, and show her inside feelings in Matsuribayashi-hen to contrast her actions in Minagoroshi-hen (Takano trying to get Tomitake to join her side, Matsuribayashi vs Minagoroshi version). As the story has explained, she's just "crazy" because of her traumatized childhood, sense of desire to repay Hifumi, and her intrests in occult stories. She's quite normal when they showed her inner emotions.

You think killing a whole village is something a sane person would do? They showed her traumatic childhood not to justify her actions, but to provide a reason for her insanity. I think you missed the point of that piece completely.


Another point:
Rika never tried to save her parents, yet she tries with all her might to save everyone else. I really don't get that, her parents knew all about the experiments and they might have been more help than her friends that might not have believed her.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by gibits

You think killing a whole village is something a sane person would do? They showed her traumatic childhood not to justify her actions, but to provide a reason for her insanity. I think you missed the point of that piece completely.


Another point:
Rika never tried to save her parents, yet she tries with all her might to save everyone else. I really don't get that, her parents knew all about the experiments and they might have been more help than her friends that might not have believed her.

It depends on how you take it. On the surface it seems like she's killing 2000 people to prove a point, but hidden beneath is her sense of duty to repay her lifesaver. She is shown to be crazy in the anime and in Minagoroshi-hen, but Matsuribayashi-hen definitely puts it in another perspective. It's not something one can get by only watching the anime.


As to why Rika never tried to save her parents...one can speculate that she actually did tried, but eventually gave up after all the failure attempts. Add with the fact that she has less time for every new world she's in, and the whole "setting up the gameboard" part, Furude Couple remains to be the victim for the 3rd year curse. Furthurmore, no one takes her revelations seriously anyway (until they developed loop memory).

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by Rias

If she was truly crazy, they wouldn't have to spend so much time explaining her rationale, and show her inside feelings in Matsuribayashi-hen to contrast her actions in Minagoroshi-hen (Takano trying to get Tomitake to join her side, Matsuribayashi vs Minagoroshi version). As the story has explained, she's just "crazy" because of her traumatized childhood, sense of desire to repay Hifumi, and her intrests in occult stories. She's quite normal when they showed her inner emotions.

The syndrome and inner motives don't have to be mutually exclusive. After all, the pathogen itself doesn't become active unless the patient himself has reasons that cause it to emerge. Both Rena and Shion have underlying problems that drive them to insanity, while Mion doesn't and thus doesn't develop it. Perhaps the syndrome is what tips Takano over the edge.

In any case though, we can see that she's a psychopath from at least the time she starts working in Hinamizawa. She actually seems to derive pleasure from vivisecting people. At least Irie sees it as a necessary evil and feels guilt about what he does; Takano revels in it.

Originally Posted by Rias

As for the disease, it's established that it could not be used outside Hinamizawa, and thus deemed useless by Tokyo. That's the reason why the whole operation was getting shut down and she had to hurry/change her plans to prove to the world that Hifumi's work was genuine.

Is that actually said in the game? Because based on the TIPS and the anime, I had assumed that the only reason that the research was halted is because Koizumi's faction loses power with his death and their opponents decide to cease funding his projects in order to utilize the funds themselves. I never got the impression that the research itself was considered a dead end.

Originally Posted by gibits

Another point:
Rika never tried to save her parents, yet she tries with all her might to save everyone else. I really don't get that, her parents knew all about the experiments and they might have been more help than her friends that might not have believed her.

Rika does try to save everyone. We see that she tries to save Akasaka for example (and she succeeds in some of the worlds). As Rias said, she probably did try but simply couldn't do it.

[gibits]

Originally Posted by Rias

It depends on how you take it. On the surface it seems like she's killing 2000 people to prove a point, but hidden beneath is her sense of duty to repay her lifesaver. She is shown to be crazy in the anime and in Minagoroshi-hen, but Matsuribayashi-hen definitely puts it in another perspective. It's not something one can get by only watching the anime.

You're missing the point. You can be insane without having this fictional syndrome. Killing 2000 (innocent) people just to prove a point IS insane. The whole piece on her childhood is to provide the background for her obvious insanity NOT to rationalize it (how do you rationalize killing a whole village in the first place?). Like I said you missed the point.

"hey gibits why did you kill all those innocent people?"
"well, I had a rough childhood, and my relatives were insulted. And you know I have a really strong sense of duty."
"Oh, I guess that's ok then, see you later"

See how twisted that is?

As to why Rika never tried to save her parents...one can speculate that she actually did tried, but eventually gave up after all the failure attempts. Add with the fact that she has less time for every new world she's in, and the whole "setting up the gameboard" part, Furude Couple remains to be the victim for the 3rd year curse. Furthurmore, no one takes her revelations seriously anyway (until they developed loop memory).

Hmm that makes sense. I guess she could only work with the people that have accumulated enough loop memories to avoid the pitfalls of the last world.

Here's another one:
That damn doll. How is it that this doll affects events things in the past? Why is it Shion hates Satoko in 2 arcs, but in others she loves her? And not just that, Shion had been looking out for Satoko for a while, before that doll was even given to Kei (if this event even happens). Shion's actions I've always found to be the most puzzling since the timelines don't seem to match cross-dimensions.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by gibits

You're missing the point. You can be insane without having this fictional syndrome. Killing 2000 (innocent) people just to prove a point IS insane. The whole piece on her childhood is to provide the background for her obvious insanity NOT to rationalize it (how do you rationalize killing a whole village in the first place?). Like I said you missed the point.

"hey gibits why did you kill all those innocent people?"
"well, I had a rough childhood, and my relatives were insulted. And you know I have a really strong sense of duty."
"Oh, I guess that's ok then, see you later"

See how twisted that is?

Many had try to rationalyze the killing of innocents or others kind of massacre, if they had history on their side, it possible.
You could think of any of old war when the capture of a town would always end with rapping, killing and destruction. On more rescent time we could take the operation when the Allied tryamphibious attack at Diep. That attack was doomed from the start, but '' lesson would be learn'' for the real invasion.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by gibits

You're missing the point. You can be insane without having this fictional syndrome. Killing 2000 (innocent) people just to prove a point IS insane. The whole piece on her childhood is to provide the background for her obvious insanity NOT to rationalize it (how do you rationalize killing a whole village in the first place?). Like I said you missed the point.

"hey gibits why did you kill all those innocent people?"
"well, I had a rough childhood, and my relatives were insulted. And you know I have a really strong sense of duty."
"Oh, I guess that's ok then, see you later"

See how twisted that is?

Remember that ideals, morals and such are not universal and can differ greatly between individuals. Even if the greatest sin is seen by the majority, depending of the circumstance, the said culprit might be "sane" in spirit, but only deviant in term of reasoning. That doesn't mean that person loses all their senses, nor it justifies X or Y fact/action.
Even in our era, wars still rage, you got needless and ridiculous tragedies, yet we got our "set" morals etc, which aren't approved by the whole humanity.

In that sense, the whole point is: Takano was absolutely not in some madness. You can say she is "mad", as she is doing something absurd and unforgivable, but essentially speaking, she has all her head. When someone is ready to do anything for an objective, you can be surprised how that person can do in some extent. "The end justifies the means", kinda.

That damn doll. How is it that this doll affects events things in the past? Why is it Shion hates Satoko in 2 arcs, but in others she loves her? And not just that, Shion had been looking out for Satoko for a while, before that doll was even given to Kei (if this event even happens). Shion's actions I've always found to be the most puzzling since the timelines don't seem to match cross-dimensions.

1) The doll has only an impact on the present. It is basically the flag that will lead to Watanagashi/meakashi type of scenario, which was defeated only in Minagoroshi-hen (en perhaps Miotsukushi-hen).

2) Because it is most likely a "random" factor. This is pretty much how keiichi learns the truth: it isn't constant and might differ, depending of the "dice roll".
In some world, Shion remembers of her promise she made with Satoshi, when he asked her to take care of Satoko before killing Houjou Tamae. In other scenario, she didn't remember and the doll just activate her madness.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

2) Because it is most likely a "random" factor. This is pretty much how keiichi learns the truth: it isn't constant and might differ, depending of the "dice roll".
In some world, Shion remembers of her promise she made with Satoshi, when he asked her to take care of Satoko before killing Houjou Tamae. In other scenario, she didn't remember and the doll just activate her madness.

She seem to remember her promise in the Himanizawa ''post Meakashi hen'' so we don't know is it a uncounsious factor , a memory going to every shion to each futur Himanizawa, or a random factor, but I thend to think the ''Post Meakashi-hen'' factor it the right answer. If we look at the PS2 version, every ''post Meakashi-hen'' chapter ( exept maybe Tsumihoroboshi-hen, were shion is so little seen), shionis very considerate and take care of Satoko, a consern not seen in any ''pre-meakashi-hen'' chapter.

[gibits]

Sorry but I don't believe in moral relativism, I believe in right and wrong. But I guess many psychopaths have ended up in jail instead of psych wards. And I agree that is where they belong.

Originally Posted by ganbaru

She seem to remember her promise in the Himanizawa ''post Meakashi hen'' so we don't know is it a uncounsious factor , a memory going to every shion to each futur Himanizawa, or a random factor, but I thend to think the ''Post Meakashi-hen'' factor it the right answer. If we look at the PS2 version, every ''post Meakashi-hen'' chapter ( exept maybe Tsumihoroboshi-hen, were shion is so little seen), shionis very considerate and take care of Satoko, a consern not seen in any ''pre-meakashi-hen'' chapter.

This explanation doesn't make temporal sense, since in the worlds where Shion remembers the promise, she has been taking care of Satoko for a year already. So not only would the memories have to transverse different worlds, but it would also have to go back in time.
The fact that Shion seems to learn post Meakashi-hen, seems to imply that this memory can change the past, not just the future, but what would have happened in Minagoroshi if Kei had given the doll to Rena? Shion already cared for Satoko since Satoshi left a year ago, would things just go bad from there? Note in Meakashi she was out of the picture, and hence didn't care for Satoko.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by gibits

This explanation doesn't make temporal sense, since in the worlds where Shion remembers the promise, she has been taking care of Satoko for a year already. So not only would the memories have to transverse different worlds, but it would also have to go back in time.

A much as Keiichi remembering killing Rena and Mion in Tsumihoroboshi-hen, or Keiichi and rena having some kind of flach-back in Minnagoroshi-hen.

[gibits]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

A much as Keiichi remembering killing Rena and Mion in Tsumihoroboshi-hen, or Keiichi and rena having some kind of flach-back in Minnagoroshi-hen.

But all of that loop memory occurred in the loop. Shion's change of heart occurred one year before it.

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by gibits

But all of that loop memory occurred in the loop. Shion's change of heart occurred one year before it.

There's no evidence that the other characters (consciously or subconsciously) remembering things has anything to do with Hanyuu transferring her and Rika's memories to other worlds. Both of them after all view Keiichi remembering things as a miracle. Because of that there's no reason for their memories to be constrained by how far back Hanyuu can send hers and Rika's.

[Ithekro]

Also in some events Shion is present at their school and others she is not.

The only disconnect is where Keiichi gives Mion the doll and Shion is seen (after that point) attending their school and taking care of Satoko. It could be that Shion takes a break from her own school from time to time to visit and take care of Satako, but that would not jive with the earliest Shion arc where even Rena didn't know Shion, but the following arc Shion is the manager of the baseball team and present with Mion and Rena.

Thus it is likely that Shion being present and known is a dice roll as well. Rika rolled the near perfect dice for that arc so that not only did Mion get the doll, but Shion was known and attending school with Satoko.

[Rias]

I think many of these events depends on how the board was set up, and ultimately the dice rolls. Meanwhile, loop memories would affect the chances of certain events.

For example, there's probably a very small chance that Shion remember her promise to Satoko, and the chance of that happeing increases after Meakashi-hen (but still not absolute, since she didn't show up in Tsumihoroboshi-hen) since it was her final regret. If she does remember and cares for her, there's also another chance that she would attend the school with Satoko(Minagoroshi), or just be somewhere else, such as staying with her mother instead(Matsuribayashi).

[Klashikari]

This case is pretty much illustrated by Akasaka's "miracle":
Even before the "fragment" where he is bitter about the fact he couldn't save both Yukie and Rika, in Minagoroshi, Akasaka was able to save Yukie as he trusted Rika's predictions.

However, it is a fact that Rika and Hanyuu are not able to go beyond 2 weeks before the tragedy. As result, the past, which is supposed to be frozen solid, changed, because of a "dice roll".

Shion and Akasaka, as long as other factors such like how Keiichi learns the truth/or if his father decides or not to move on Hinamizawa etc, are not dependant of any specific events, they are basically some luck, some random factors that are bound only to their own probability to do X, Y Z, etc result.

The events themselves are not rock solid, until there is a very strong will behind it (as explained by Frederica in the start of Minagoroshi): all the events occured according to "fate" as Takano had a unyielding will for her objective, hence why Tommy's death is a clockwork etc.

[Mr. Delicious]

What are the textbook definitions of each level?

All I know is that L1 is infected with no symptoms and that L5 is totally koo-koo-bird.

[Mr. Delicious]

Here's an interesting question--

if you were in Rika's position after she regained her memories of Minagorashi-Hen, and possessed that awareness of all of the Rules, how would YOU go about obtaining a good ending?

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Mr. Delicious

Here's an interesting question--

if you were in Rika's position after she regained her memories of Minagorashi-Hen, and possessed that awareness of all of the Rules, how would YOU go about obtaining a good ending?

The problem with that question is than we have now all her awareness and we know more ( what will appen next for example), so we would not really find (honnestly) a way for the good endding without using this extra knowledge.

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by Mr. Delicious

Here's an interesting question--

if you were in Rika's position after she regained her memories of Minagorashi-Hen, and possessed that awareness of all of the Rules, how would YOU go about obtaining a good ending?

Stop time, throw a few dozen knives at Takano, let time resume.

[Intranetusa]

"You can be insane without having this fictional syndrome. "

...the syndrome isn't fictional... The murders in the entire 1st season proved that the disease does cause a person to go insane/homicidal and is fatal at the end.


"Killing 2000 (innocent) people just to prove a point IS insane. "

The death of the 2000 people is the byproduct, not the goal. Her goal is to complete her grandfather's research.


1. Kill the carrier queen
2. cause the people to turn insane
3. force the government to kill the villagers to prevent the disease from spreading
4. the faction supporting her in the government takes over, allowing her to continue her research

""hey gibits why did you kill all those innocent people?"
"well, I had a rough childhood, and my relatives were insulted. And you know I have a really strong sense of duty.""

It's funny (not really) that Hitler and Stalin both grew up in an abusive family.


"Sorry but I don't believe in moral relativism, I believe in right and wrong. "

Destroying a village in order to save it - that was basically the policy in Vietnam...
Nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki so an allied invasion of the Japanese home islands would not be necessary...
Euthanasia of a terminal cancer patient in extreme pain...

Nothing in the world is purely right and wrong.