[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[DaBackpack]

Originally Posted by Used Can

I think Kyrie was confirmed dead for EP's 1 & 2's 1st Twilights in EP4.

Anyway, I remember I came up with a crack-theory for Kyrie, before EP7 was released:

Spoiler for Le Kyrie et 00Gohdá:

My theory:

Kyrie, as most of the main figures in the Sumadera family, trained with les legionnaires. As most of the fellows who finish training with them, her mental stability wasn't fully granted, but for most of it, she could pass as any other member of society.

The Sumadera family, being the big influential group they are, couldn't stand the honour and prestige the Ushiromiya family had amounted in such short period of time. So, they decided to play a trojan horse, i.e. Kyrie.

The target chosen was Rudolph, since targeting the elder would have been more difficult, since as the successor, chances were Kinzo himself would be the one choose the bride. Additionally, Rudolph was a well known player. So, since Kyrie had good brains, he was an easy target. Kyrie did well for most of it, until Asumu showed up. This was a big flaw since Kyrie thought playing the role of the competent partner was enough. However, she forgot the emotional support, which in the end, was granted to Rudoplh by Asumu. This wouldn't have been a big issue. However, Asumu became pregnant, and for Kyrie's disgrace, she had become pregnant as well.

Rudolph, as much of a player he was, idiocy wasn't one of his traits. By this point he had figured out there was something strange with Kyrie, and had made some research on the Sumaderas, uncovering part of their plan. Because of this, by the time Asumu and Kyrie gave birth, he rushed to Kyries place, in order to ensure her birth would be passes as stillbirth, in order to protect his child. Sadly, Asumu's child was indeed stillbirth. So, Rudolph arranged things so that Kyrie's child would be passed as Asumu's. At this point he would have expected Kyrie to give up on him, but that never happened. She kept on following him. And thus, in order to protect his family, he decided to play her game, even if that meant being unfaithful.

Six years later, during the family conference, Rudolph's son, Battler, met one of the servants. What he didn't know was that this girl had lived in the island her entire life and, whilst she looked younger than him, she was actually one year older. Additionally, this had been going through all kinds of hardships, since Kinzo, being the delusional man he was, viewed her as the reincarnation of his long lost love, the Golden Witch, Beatrice. They became friends, and when Battler left the island, he promised he'd come back for her. This girl, who at that point had made no friends, took that promise to heart. Little did that girl or Battler knew that, later on, that girl would go through terrible misfortune and that promise would be her only ray of hope.

Later on that same year, Asumu died in an "accident". However, as obvious as it is, it was no accident but a plan from the Sumaderas. In order to make it look as if Kyrie was not involved, a plot was followed, so that it'd look as if Kyrie had left the family.

Immediately after, Kyrie suggested marriage to Rudolph, who a this point was devastated, but in order to protect Battler, he agreed. Kyrie was cunning, so she had a child, Ange, with Rudoplh as soon as se could. This children would play a role such, if anything happened to the Ushiromiya family, she'd serve a link between the Sumaderas and the vast wealth and power of the Ushiromiyas. However, not everything went smoothly, since Battler eventually found out about Rudolph and Kyrie's affairs and left the house, and that became a big problem because, if anything happened to the Ushiromiyas and he was still around, as the eldest, he'd be chosen as the new head, and thus the wealth and power would remain Ushiromiya-only. Rudolph would probably seen Battler's leaving the house as a good thing. However, at this point, his emotions took over his reasoning, and tried to persuade Battler to return. Luckily for him, but even more for Kyrie, Battler returned 6 years later.

Now, around 1983-1984, Ushiromiya Krauss had hired a new servant, a cook. Naturally, he wasn't needed, but Krauss could never fully trust on the other servants, who were under Kinzo's control. So, he had Gohda as someone he could trust. Little did he know Gohda had been conveniently placed by the Sumaderas, and was working as a spy, giving Kyrie detailed information about the mansion.

The servant Battler met 6 years ago, whom I'll call Beatrice, had a sharp mind, and was able to find something suspicious about Gohda, and eventually realised the ploy they had. However, there was very little she could do, since eventually she was found and threatened by Kyrie.

On 1985, unknown to most of the Ushiromiya family, Kinzo had passed away. This had become a big issue for Krauss and they tried to hide this info from the other siblings. As expected, this went smoothly. However, the double agent, Toshiro Gohda, filled in Kyrie with all this information.

It is now 1986, all the pieces have been laid, and the Sumadera plan is about to be put into motion. This is how things began.

The End

Hmm. I read the Red Truth list and Kyrie actually did die in the First Twilight in EP2. But that's the only outlier.

Well, she could still have done it for EP1, EP3 and EP4. Can't really explain EP2's First Twilight, though, without using another culprit.

Maybe Kyrie can coordinate the murders before she dies, and when she actually dies she can still be considered the "culprit." I still find it funny how all of the Umineko mothers end up protecting the children at some point except for Kyrie.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Will Wright

That said, I understand where you are coming from. But I personally prefer crimes that seem impossible, yet remain fair with the reader.

Depends on what is considered fair. It always depends on your educational, social and general private background what you consider fair.
There are some Western readers who don't consider the solution to the epitaph fair, because it uses knowledge of the Japanese language and writing as well as East Asian history.
Just as well, many readers would consider it unfair if the solution depended on certain knowledge of the occult, foreign languages or meta-symbolism.
In a Japanese mystery novel I read once,

Spoiler for hint to solution of 霧越邸殺人事件:

the culprit was basically named right after the first murder by making his initials appear in ancient greek at the crime scene. It's still heavily debated wether this counts as a hint or not.

Originally Posted by Will Wright

This would be hilarious, and I would actually be okay with it. Though even if it isn't a mystery, it will be a Burning Court ending of sorts.

Nah, I think the point where I would still buy that has long passed.
He has put so much effort into playing us into making us believe that there is nothing supernatural going on hidden behind all that 'magic'...anticlimactic wouldn't even begin to describe the effect of it.

And even then, basically the story is a mystery wether natural or supernatural.
There is a truth hidden behind many different representations of the same event. The only way of not making this a mystery was, if he would refuse to give any answers to questions he brought up himself. And then it would just be a big hoax...
Of course, for those who love Umineko for being 'a troll' it would be great fun. But I think for many others, including me, it would just be a disappointment because of the many lost hours thinking about a mystery that did not exist.

In that matter Umineko is fundamentaly different from Higurashi.
While Higurashi was also a mystery in a way, the quality of the answer did not really matter as long as it did not contradict anything that was introduced before.
Takano could have been Oyashiro-sama's reincarnation, there could have been real aliens or mole-people...it could even have been a giant case of raving madness. It never set real limits for the answer it gave in the end.

But Umineko made it very clear that there are fundamental qualities to the answer, one way or the other.
If the witch is true, all was true from the beginning. There would be no point in drawing out the story in the first place and every reason is lost to magic.
If there is a human solution, then it has to be by human means and in the confines that the witch trapped us in, or else the battle was not fair and there was no point in even starting to play the game.
And a solution that's neither of the two would be just sad. Higurashi could pull it off, because basically it didn't matter, but in Umineko's case Ryukishi made it more and more clear that it is 'either, or' and not 'neither, nor'.

In the end there is no chance for Umineko NOT to be a mystery. The only pathes left are to succeed or to fail as one.

[Will Wright]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

Depends on what is considered fair. It always depends on your educational, social and general private background what you consider fair.
There are some Western readers who don't consider the solution to the epitaph fair, because it uses knowledge of the Japanese language and writing as well as East Asian history.
Just as well, many readers would consider it unfair if the solution depended on certain knowledge of the occult, foreign languages or meta-symbolism.
In a Japanese mystery novel I read once,

Spoiler for hint to solution of 霧越邸殺人事件:

the culprit was basically named right after the first murder by making his initials appear in ancient greek at the crime scene. It's still heavily debated wether this counts as a hint or not.

Well, I think that anyone who thinks that the epitaph solution isn't fair has to remember that they are not exactly the intended audience.

I not once bothered with the epitaph because I knew perfectly well that my rusty Japanese wasn't enough to make me understand it. It's kind of a given.

As for the novel you cited, it sounds...Interesting. Had anything in the novel hinted a

Spoiler for 霧越邸殺人事件:

connection with ancient Greek?

Of course, for those who love Umineko for being 'a troll' it would be great fun. But I think for many others, including me, it would just be a disappointment because of the many lost hours thinking about a mystery that did not exist.

I would be disappointed if it had a non-existent mystery, but if the ending was

Spoiler for Burning Court:

Something Burning Courtish where the author tells you that it was supernatural while showing you the "mystery" solution making it kind of ambiguous whether it was supernatural or a mystery in the end...Now that is something I could live with.

I frankly hate the "trolling for the hell of it" that some people seem to want Umineko to become. But a thematic ending like would fit and satisfy the mystery lovers.

[Renall]

I'd still be all for "there was a witch after all, but she wasn't the murderer and didn't use her magic to cause or cover up any of the crimes." Just to see the twitch in Bern's eye.

[Will Wright]

I'm only fine with a witch if her existence can be denied. If it goes "there was a witch after all, but she wasn't the murderer and didn't use her magic to cause or cover up any of the crimes." let's just say that Bern wouldn't be the only one twitching.

[Renall]

Awwww c'mon, it's still totally explicable by human means!

The better question would be why she didn't use her damn magic to stop it. Must be a Samantha Stevens kind of witch.

[CainSonozaki]

"there was a witch after all, but she wasn't the murderer and didn't use her magic to cause or cover up any of the crimes."

Umm. MARIA

[Renall]

Wouldn't we all feel like assholes if everything Maria ever said was true.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Renall

I'd still be all for "there was a witch after all, but she wasn't the murderer and didn't use her magic to cause or cover up any of the crimes." Just to see the twitch in Bern's eye.

I can definitely imagine Battler concluding this after explaining the entire thing from a human perspective.

And possibly leaving one non-murder related mystery in order to prevent the witch from being denied.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Renall

Wouldn't we all feel like assholes if everything Maria ever said was true.

I would spend the remainder of my existence figuring out a way to travel to those Kakeras just so I could punch her in the face while shes in the middle of one of her rants.

FAL-CHRON...PUNCH!

[Will Wright]

Originally Posted by Renall

Wouldn't we all feel like assholes if everything Maria ever said was true.

Considering how I hate Maria, I would probably hate Umineko.

[Marion]

Well Maria believes Beatrice IS causing all the crimes, not the opposite

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Will Wright

Well, I think that anyone who thinks that the epitaph solution isn't fair has to remember that they are not exactly the intended audience.

Well, you didn't really need Japanese to solve it. In fact, the few hints that relied on some Japanese understanding were explained - like the difference between Golden Land and Capital of Gold. In fact, rather than Japanese, you needed English, to go through the whole QUADRILLION, and LORDU thing. In fact, if the last part of the Taiwan theory is correct, then you also needed some Western knowledge about 0 hours = Witching hour.

Of course, you also needed the info that Taiwan was a Japanese colony once, and that it was known for gold mining. Needless to say, going as far as using Qilian was a bitch, but yeah... fuck Taiwan. Either way, you do not really need Japanese to solve this. Anyhow, it makes me wonder how many Japanese people know about Taiwan being used for the gold, and the whole info about Qilian. Personally, I think even if you were Japanese, the Epitaph was indeed slightly unfair (and "slightly" may be an understatement).

Originally Posted by Renall

Wouldn't we all feel like assholes if everything Maria ever said was true.

Nah... I always find children with dual personalities interesting.

[fuff]

okay i was reading wiki and this does not make any sense...who is Lion Ushiromiya???

is "it" the child of Natsuhi??

this is what wiki says:
"Lion is actually Kinzo's son/daughter that he had with his other daughter"
.....from this i get kinzo did rosa or eva?? WTF

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for answer to fuff, this is Episode7 spoiler.:

From what can be deduced from Episode7, Lion is the child of Kinzo and the Beatrice of 1967, which in turn is the child of the original Beatrice (the one that gave Kinzo the gold) and Kinzo.

So yes, it is suggested that Kinzo had an incestuous relationship with his own daughter (but not Eva or Rosa) and Lion was born from them.

Then it is explained that after the Beatrice of 1967 died, Kinzo took her baby and asked Natsuhi to "adopt" it and raise it as if it was her own child. So basically Lion is the "man from 19 years before" that was mentioned in EP5.

In EP7 it is presented an alternative world where Natsuhi accepted the baby and raised it as Kinzo wished. The new character that we see in EP7 is that Lion Ushiromiya.
In the canon world, however, the same person is known as "Yasu", although Kinzo later reveals to her/him that she/he was supposed to be named Lion.

[Jan-Poo]

Well you need a minimum understanding of Kanji in order to get the part of "the two" the "mouth" and the "shore". In fact the "mouth" part isn't even possible to translate in english.

Without any knowledge of that sort even if you get to Taiwan and even if you understand that the river is the danshui line you still wouldn't be able to understand which is the station that you are supposed to pick, apart from some reverse engineering if you already take for granted that initial sentence is quadrillion.

But this is where the riddle gets a little ridiculous in my opinion, that's the only flaw I can see in the whole construction and solution:

If you already know about "quadrillion" then that part of "ougon no kyou" is totally useless.

[Leafsnail]

"Kuwadorian" and the "Quadrillion to one" things are both clues that that's the "key". I guess the idea is that all the siblings had a chance since they knew where Kinzo was brought up, but some working out (and possibly an atlas) would be required for the reader.

[Jan-Poo]

Actually "Kuwadorian" doesn't seem to have anything to do with the epitaph, and it isn't even the place where the secret room with the gold exists.

In fact, Battler and Erika solved the riddle without having any knowledge about that place. (Although they weren't supposed to have any knowledge about the chapel's inscription either)

[Kataryn]

Spoiler for Question:

Who is Yasu?
I've read th VNs EP1-EP6 so, it wont be such a huge spoiler for me.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

Spoiler for Question:

Who is Yasu?
I've read th VNs EP1-EP6 so, it wont be such a huge spoiler for me.

Yasuda (Yasu for short) is the fake surname that was given to the child that Natsuhi (in 1967) was supposed to adopt and raise as her firstborn son/daughter.She/he was supposed to be named Lion Ushiromiya.

Since Natsuhi refused the child and since Kinzo is a pervert swine, Genji with the cooperation of Nanjo and Kumasawa let them believe that "Lion" was dead. In truth that child was still alive and was saved by the doctor. For a while Lion lived in the fukuin orphanage but then Genji thought it was more appropriate for someone with the Ushiromiya blood (yeah Yasu/Lion is Kinzo's and Beatrice2's child) to live in Rokkenjima. So that poor child was hired as a servant at the tender age of 6 (in 1976)... or so everyone believed because the real age was actually 9. Genji even manipulated that in order to remove any possible connection with the child that Natsuhi was supposed to adopt.

Anyway from that day onward "Yasu" began working like every other fukuin children while attending school at the same time. Needless to say it was a chore, and the older fukuin servants didn't like to work alongside a brat that had no reason to be there. Yasu is in fact a nickname that they gave to her/him, and she/he never really liked to be called by that.

We were never told what was Yasu's fukuin name or "real" name. We also never seen how Yasu looked like, but by logic she/he should have the same face of the "Lion Ushiromiya" of the alternative reality that Willard Wright meets in Bern's catbox world.

The story as it was narrated shows Yasu and Shannon as two different persons, however Yasu's background completely matches with Shannon's background as it was told to us from Ep1 to Ep4. So it's pretty much certain that Shannon and Yasu are the very same person, but Yasu for some reasons split her Shannon self from his/her real self. And that isn't even the only "personality" she/he build in her/his imaginary world.

Yasu is the same person as Lion, Shannon, Beatrice, Claire, Gaap and probably Kanon too.