Character Discussion - Kallen

[Levy]

The part of the poem in which she saids - after Lelouch's death, and then knowing what it would have took - that she would have followed him to hell, if ZR is the 'hell' she's talking about.. but we have already discussed this and my problems with it, we can drop it here

Lelouch had not committed too much visible atrocities when he meet Karen in Turn22, but he had already made something to mine her loyalty, like his lies in turn19 - contraddicted by the 'you must live on' line, that confused her even more - ascending to the trone of the same Britannia he wanted to destroy and Karen hates more than any other thing, and making Suzaku his Ko0.

She was most probably questioning herself by that time about how much of a lie all she have loved and believed in was, and the bastard played this card to push her away.

EDIT: yes, blade, pretty much the same thing... he mined her trust and already turned into something she cannot accept without questioning, even if the worse was yet to come...

[dec4rhapsody]

Spoiler for fandom talk. Hmm, impressions...Sue me if incorrect:

I had a discussion with FF again, about all the shit Kallen gets (mainly in the chinese CG forums and especially BAIDU).
Here are some snippets...(my brain is just formated again)

1. The majority of the chinese female fandom are yaoi fangirls and even misogynists (towards female celebrities or characters).

2. They hate female characters even more if those girls are explicitly used for fanservice, because this is like "pandering" the male fans. And they blame the character instead of the staff.

3."Lovesickness" is often regarded as a feminine weakness, and unfortunately female characters are portrayed to be more vocal about romantic feelings, while in real life, the boys are supposed to be more active.

4. And then, voila the double standard in shoujo harem shows, where the main girl is often unaware of...everything. In this case, the girl is often labeled as "dull bitch" or is even accused to "hurt the bishounen/pretty boy's feelings".

Thus, Kallen is the victim of "quad" standards (LOL, thx FF), for:
One, she has been "creepily infatuated" with her leader ever since S1 (though she wasn't clear of her feelings towards the man under the mask till Turn 22)
And two, she was still unaware of Lelouch's true intentions/feelings when she got her "You must live on".

I hope this will explain the whole crap a little bit, though it probably doesn't apply to the western fandom.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Levy

Lelouch had not committed too much visible atrocities when he meet Karen in Turn22, but he had already made something to mine her loyalty, like his lies in turn19 - contraddicted by the 'you must live on' line, that confused her even more - ascending to the trone of the same Britannia he wanted to destroy and Karen hates more than any other thing, and making Suzaku his Ko0.

She was most probably questioning herself by that time about how much of a lie all she have loved and believed in was, and the bastard played this card to push her away.

Well, the whole "live on" messed with her mind. She wanted to confront Lelouch both for the Suzu-teammate and mostly, because she wanted to know why Lelouch said that.
Well, too bad, after the kiss Kallen is all Snow Patrol-ish "all that i am, all that i ever was, is here in your perfect eyes, they're all i can seee.." but Lelouch did not say the "show me a garden that's bursting into lifee.." while he initiated the song in the first place. |DDDD;;

Ok seriously, Kallen is a mess at that point. She wants to believe in him but he basically, gives her no reason to. Opposite actually, after the conference-crap, well, figure it out from there. 8)

[Levy]

@Dec: wow... me feels so lucky on my side of the globe now °_°;

So CC is spared of the shit because she doesn't act lovesick, while Shirley is not much used for fanservice, hence they got less "hate points"?

Just for curiosity, what about Euphie..?


@sky: yes, pretty much that. And that's why I'm sold on the idea that Lelouch doesn't expected her to hear that lin of him.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Levy

@sky: yes, pretty much that. And that's why I'm sold on the idea that Lelouch doesn't expected her to hear that lin of him.

Expecting, hoping and what was wanted to be said, are three different scenarios. 8)

[dec4rhapsody]

Hmm...Sorry, I know I have been too judgemental when it comes to fandom...(btw, I am not stating my opinions as facts, but I have to be confident about what I say at least.)

Mwa, well, I was trying only to cover Kallen's case in the Kallen thread
We all know each CG character gets his or her share of hatred which pretty much died down after most people moved on to other shows...LOL, and as blotty told me, even Lulu's hate thread in 2ch shoots up to many pages (each page contains 1000 posts).

But still, I felt that I had to rant about the Kallen hatred because massive anti-Kallen sentiment have occured in the last arc of the show (and especially after Turn 24) while Suzaku or Rolo hatred died down (a little bit) after their respective roles in their last steps of chara developments.

I still remember those (geass-only) chara polls after the ending, Kallen dropped a lot.

LOL, and I was joking that Kallen would have received much less shit if she had died for Lulu.
You just have to take a look at the best scene polls.
Just as Kanalelou says, "people clearly enjoy watching people die."

[Levy]

LOL, but Everybody-That-Was-Not-With-Lulu!HATE occurred in the last arc... I mean, people bashed Nunnaly of all people, as they started to appreciate Nina... that was not statistically relevant. XD;

I agree about people enjoying to see people die, though, and Rollo is maybe the best example of this in this fandom. The appreciation of his character rocketed toward the stratosphear after his martyrizing death scene.

@sky: just to make it clearer also hear- I was referring to 'physically hear' his words.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Levy

@sky: just to make it clearer also hear- I was referring to 'physically hear' his words.

Well, maybe she did not expect, but hope is still there. She would have not asked in the first place then.

[yvj]

Lelouch, that parting kiss,
even if it was a lie, if you had said, "I love you," (1)
I would even follow you to hell.
You knew that, didn't you?

I still don't understand why when Kallen says this people interpret it as Kallen KNOWING she's been lied to and would have gone along with it.

The point of this part of the poem is Kallen acknowledging how easily she could have been used. If Lelouch could have fooled Nunnally he could probably have fooled Kallen with sweet words.

Kalllen is looking back at the scenario. (The poem is one of reflection)

If he had lied to her and said I love she would have probably believed in him (leading to one of the scenarios I mentioned earlier) and followed him to hell.

But Lelouch didn't lie, he didn't use her this is what Kallen is remarking on. How easily he cold have done it.

[Grey Dawn]

But if they acknowledged that, then they'd have to cope with it in terms of their desires for making the show what they want it to be.

[bladeofdarkness]

IMO the poem comes to stress one thing more then anything else about the plot (aside from, just being tragic)
its the director/writer/staff way of making a point clear
if lelouch wanted kallen on his side during ZERO-R, she would have been on his side
hence kallen not being on his side and fighting against him, is exactly what he wanted
in other words, dont hate kallen for siding against him, when its exactly what he wanted to happen (for reasons that should already be clear from other sources)

[SonOfHeaven]

Originally Posted by Levy

Seems that superexposition to cauliflowers and pepperoni had brought Nobodyman9 to rise the question if Kallen's famous questions in turn 22 (and 19) can be considering whoring, as a very crude reading of her reactions might be "if you say you love me then I'll do anything for you, in any other case... uhm... no." as his love would be the price of her loyalty, and that instead of following her feelings alone, she needed Lelouch to solve the dilemma actually deciding for her.

Well, its not like Kallen asked Lelouch "Do you love me" at turn 19 and turn 22. I'm sure if Lelouch stated that he saw her as an friend that he trusted her and why he told her to live on then she wouldn't leave him.

Originally Posted by Levy

I agree with this, and that's why I hate the poem a little...

I mean - and I know already I would be call out on my pairing bias but nevermind, I've get used to that - for the selfless and loyal person Karen is, I don't think that 'love' is the only thing that she would have want/need to hear to have second thoughts - that she has already - about his doings. And on the other hand, I don't think that 'I love you, shut up and follow my orders!' would have been enough to win her completely.... still, I can hardly see her joining in ZR in any case.

It is one of the only moments during the show that Kallen acted on what she wanted on a personal level(Many of the other characters always been like that). After everything that Lelouch and Kallen been through during the show. She just wanted to know what she meant to Lelouch. I don't think it was too much to ask. She always believed in him and willingly to die for him. I thought she had a right to know what she meant to Lelouch after all the lies and how he treated her in the past. I remember when the episode first aired, I was upset that Lelouch didn't say anything. At least we know he was hiding his feelings and why he didn't what Kallen to join him.

In my opinion, if Kallen knew that "I love you" was an lie. I don't see Kallen following Lelouch since he has lied and hurt her feelings before. Since its after the kiss, I think Kallen realized what his feelings were so it wouldn't have mattered if he lied about it. And Lelouch knew that as well.(This is me being biased I suppose).

Originally Posted by Levy

The part of the poem in which she saids - after Lelouch's death, and then knowing what it would have took - that she would have followed him to hell, if ZR is the 'hell' she's talking about.. but we have already discussed this and my problems with it, we can drop it here

I think the following to hell part of the poem might have been Kallen simply being by his side as he was the emperor(Also I don't think Kallen would be ok with Lelouch dying). I would think when Lelouch became the enemy of the world that could be classifed as something like that. Lelouch didn't want Kallen to go against everyone and her friends as well. Kallen knows that more than likely Lelouch had something planned(Which is vital). Probably one of the reasons Lelouch didn't want to reveal anything to Kallen during turn 22. Since she realized everything just by looking at Suzaku as Zero. He couldn't say anything.

Originally Posted by Levy

Shirley's case maybe better parraleles what Kallen did in ep.2: she forgave Lelouch for having used the BK for his revenge and abandoned them during the black rebellion and sdeveral other things because she still wanted to believe in him...
One thing is to forgive something you list as wrong and that hurted you because of love, another thing is to actively take part in something that goes against your principles ins such a global scale because of love. Surely, people do it... people do far crazier things for love.
I'm just not sold on the idea completely.

In case people have forgotten, turn 13. Shirley was confused herself. Shirley remembered everything and she didn't want to believe in Lelouch by wanting to fall off that cliff. Lelouch told her that he didn't want to lose anything else, he squeezed her hand and even called out her name. That was enough for Shirley to believe in Lelouch and she even picked up an gun willingly.

Imagine if Kallen would have had something like that. Even after all the lies and times that Lelouch hurt Kallen's feelings, she always gave him an benefit of a doubt and that's beautiful to me. Kallen isn't someone who will go on her own feelings and be selfish like that. One of the reasons why she didn't go after Lelouch until the rest of the BK did so. Even if Lelouch could have died and she would never have been able to move on from him(She's not even now after Lelouch's death everything in terms of love). That's just her character.

This is one of Kallen's character flaws. Like with episode 9 S1. She should have known that her mother wasn't an maid taking all the abuse just to take that abuse even from Kallen herself. It took an huge moment for Kallen to realize why her mother was an maid. Same with Lelouch, Kallen should know that Lelouch didn't think of her as an pawn. It took her realizing everything Lelouch has planned at the last moment to realize everything for her character development.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

IMO the poem comes to stress one thing more then anything else about the plot (aside from, just being tragic)
its the director/writer/staff way of making a point clear
if lelouch wanted kallen on his side during ZERO-R, she would have been on his side
hence kallen not being on his side and fighting against him, is exactly what he wanted
in other words, dont hate kallen for siding against him, when its exactly what he wanted to happen (for reasons that should already be clear from other sources)

This along with everything else that been getting released for Kallen's character. Seems to me the staff are trying to let us know that Kallen loves Lelouch beyond everything and no one else. Makes no sense for her to jump on the next guy who says she's hot without no impact on her life.(This is over analyzing but that one verse for her character song. I think it was watch over me, tell me I'm not alone(Is this correct,from the translation I read on an different site). Why would Kallen thinks she's alone. She has her mother and friends. Lelouch's existence is just too important for her character.).

Edit: That one post I read in the romance thread about Lelouch not willing to Kallen in. I completely disagree on all levels. Turn 9 as an personal request to return to Ashford. Turn 19 speaks for itself as with trun 22(Lelouch's OOC moment and stupid move in my opinion). I won't go on about that to repeat myself.

[Nobodyman9]

*Having just read 3 pages of long and well-developed arguments against my proposition, which everyone clearly put a good amount of their valuable time into making*

...okay, I'm convinced.

Okay, my fault everyone. Sorry. Super sorry. My bad. Mea Culpa. Shows over. Nothing to see here. Move along, move along.

Seriously, thank you all for your input.

[dec4rhapsody]

Speaking of S1 Stage 9...
THAT realization was MUCH better portrayed...

*sniff*


Overanalyzing a little bit, I don't think Kallen would ask "what am I to you" if she thinks she is a friend...

@nobodyman9
Maa, should I say you are kawaii?

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

Edit: That one post I read in the romance thread about Lelouch not willing to Kallen in. I completely disagree on all levels. Turn 9 as an personal request to return to Ashford. Turn 19 speaks for itself as with trun 22(Lelouch's OOC moment and stupid move in my opinion). I won't go on about that to repeat myself.

Not really, it is not that much far from the truth actually. Lelouch, never lets anyone really "in", not even his sister.
I suppose, a few people, expected Lelouch to explain the whole ZR to Kallen and her stooding by his side till the end or something. idk

The point is, that Lelouch had his moment of truth with Kallen, quite a few times. And that ought to tell a lot of things about him. {he actually had his moment of truth with all the girls, but under different circumstances}

[SonOfHeaven]

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

Speaking of S1 Stage 9...
THAT realization was MUCH better portrayed..

Overanalyzing a little bit, I don't think Kallen would ask "what am I to you" if she thinks she is a friend...

I can understand that overanalyzing I suppose.

About stage 9, of course it was better portrayed since its completely apparent during the show. Only 1/3 of the climax of Kallen's character development happened during R2 using turn 22 as an reference. She found out what Lelouch planned but not the most important questions she asked him. What she meant to Lelouch and the live on question were cleared up in the side stuff from her POV. Which weren't completely cleared during the show in my opinion.

@incorrupts

Sure it never happened. I meant that he was willing at certain points to let her "in" a few times. The interruption during turn 7 for example. He was about to run to Kallen until Rolo showed up. Who knows what would have happened if Rolo didn't appear. Same with turn 9 as well.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

@incorrupts

Sure it never happened. I meant that he was willing at certain points to let her "in" a few times. The interruption during turn 7 for example. He was about to run to Kallen until Rolo showed up. Who knows what would have happened if Rolo didn't appear. Same with turn 9 as well.

Yeah, i get this and this is what i pointed out. Lelouch can never let anyone fully in, part of his nature i suppose.
But with Kallen, their relationship was colored on the way, {one of the aspects of their relationship to be more accurare} "you help me, i help you back."

The "help you back" part, is "interrupted" at times. But i guess, it came full circle with ZR and the whole realization-feelings, in a way.

p.s you can call me sky btw. |DD;

[Bonzo]

I making Cornelia drama and last Lelouch-Kallen at the same time, for to explain why Kallen changed her character.
About...before to make a "scandal", in the next little story Kallen breast will be more big, she breastfeeding now.

[reaper_unique]

Ok something completly different is the latest picture drama out? so n° 6?

[Bonzo]

About lelouch yes, but other two to do, Cornelia drama and rivalz/nina drama.