Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[monster]

While Fllay probably hadn't gotten over her dislike (or more likely, fear) of coordinators by the end of SEED, it's not unlikely that she viewed Kira differently from other coordinators. On the other hand, there's also the issue of whether Kira would still be interested in a romantic relationship with Fllay. I have a feeling that Kira's feelings for Fllay were more of guilt than love by the end of SEED.

[aeriolewinters]

I have a feeling that Kira's feelings for Fllay were more of guilt than love by the end of SEED.

God, I had a feeling you'd say this.

There is no conclusive evidence to say that Kira's feelings for her have dulled. The reason why he's so stoic for the whole series is his, guilt yes, but his guilt for what happened to Fllay is overwriting his feelings for Lacus. The reason why Lacus was reluctant to give the keys of Freedom to Kira was precisely because she was worried of the complications he would get emotionally, littlle did she know, that Kira was always the protector, and it actually helped them develop as a couple. But I'd still say that his love for Fllay had more impact to the man, Had Kira never fallen in love with Fllay; He would never had known how to love Lacus.

Don't push it monstert, saying that would've killed Kira in ep34, as I have a feeling that Fllay's memory has alot in play for how he acts in front of Lacus. The trigger in ep.13 was ever so apparent, Kira would've decided to just take out the trash and not care anymore about the war. His actions were triggered by the simple reasoning that Kira doesn't want de ja vu to happen with Lacus. In ep. 13 he realized that if he just stood there doing nothing, Lacus will go to the afterlife as well.

Though I'd Imagine if Lacus got killed in ep. 13, we'd see pissed off Kira going on a rampage, taking out entire armies until Athrun and Shinn stop him.

To cut the long story short, Lacus is more than lucky that Kira met Fllay and Fllay died. Which honestly, raised her chances and also made Kira abit more paranoid when it came to his lovelife. Had Fllay never died and instead went missing, Kira would never sleep until he finds the girl, you know this would be true.



As I said, for fluff go to K x L, but for real romance : K x F is the path.

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

God, I had a feeling you'd say this.

There is no conclusive evidence to say that Kira's feelings for her have dulled. The reason why he's so stoic for the whole series is his, guilt yes, but his guilt for what happened to Fllay is overwriting his feelings for Lacus. The reason why Lacus was reluctant to give the keys of Freedom to Kira was precisely because she was worried of the complications he would get emotionally, littlle did she know, that Kira was always the protector, and it actually helped them develop as a couple. But I'd still say that his love for Fllay had more impact to the man, Had Kira never fallen in love with Fllay; He would never had known how to love Lacus.

Don't push it monstert, saying that would've killed Kira in ep34, as I have a feeling that Fllay's memory has alot in play for how he acts in front of Lacus. The trigger in ep.13 was ever so apparent, Kira would've decided to just take out the trash and not care anymore about the war. His actions were triggered by the simple reasoning that Kira doesn't want de ja vu to happen with Lacus. In ep. 13 he realized that if he just stood there doing nothing, Lacus will go to the afterlife as well.

Though I'd Imagine if Lacus got killed in ep. 13, we'd see pissed off Kira going on a rampage, taking out entire armies until Athrun and Shinn stop him.

To cut the long story short, Lacus is more than lucky that Kira met Fllay and Fllay died. Which honestly, raised her chances and also made Kira abit more paranoid when it came to his lovelife. Had Fllay never died and instead went missing, Kira would never sleep until he finds the girl, you know this would be true.



As I said, for fluff go to K x L, but for real romance : K x F is the path.

Hum there are no real evidences that Kira loved Flay. In Seed, Kira was not in a state to love someone. He was completely broken because of the war. If you have looked the relationship chart, it was only Flay and Lacus who loved Kira but not Kira who loved one of them.

However, in Destiny, it's not the case anymore. Kira and Lacus are in love. Can we say, it would not be the case if Flay was alive. No, not really. We don't know that at all.

The only fact is that in Destiny : Kira and lacus are in love and that in Seed, Flay and Lacus loved Kira.

[aeriolewinters]

Hum there are no real evidences that Kira loved Flay. In Seed, Kira was not in a state to love someone. He was completely broken because of the war. If you have looked the relationship chart, it was only Flay and Lacus who loved Kira but not Kira who loved one of them.

Oh God, we're going to restart again... Fukuda just chickened out.

Can you seriously tell that to Kira's face back in SEED, that he never loved either? That, my friend is called a deathwish.

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Oh God, we're going to restart again... Fukuda just chickened out.

Can you seriously tell that to Kira's face back in SEED, that he never loved either?

Yes of course. Actually, I think it makes more sense to believe that than the contrary. And the relationship chart confirm that. You can not be agreed with but it's a fact since it's official.

And It's easy to justify such thing : Kira was broken because of the war. How can he love someone when he's not in the state for that ?

I don't even undertand why we're talking about that.

I find more intresting to talk about the relationshoip between Kira and Cagalli in Seed since for me, Cagalli loved him back then. I have always this question in mind : Who Cagalli love the most : Kira or Athrun ?

[aeriolewinters]

Yes of course. Actually, I think it makes more sense to believe that than the contrary. And the relationship chart confirm that. You can not be agreed with but it's a fact since it's official.

How many times are we going to have to resort to rely on 'official' data? This is the same staff that told us that Rau and Mwu were the last Newtypes and a Series later they say otherwise.This is also the same staff who are like christmas lights when asking about whether Kira and co. have been morally compromised. This is the same staff who quit on their main focal point, because he wasn't popular enough. What does this show you? Fukuda is afraid of fan backlash. Fukuda only said that Kira loved neither to avoid fan backlash from the LxK crowd. By doing that and making K x L canon in Destiny. It's an easy alibi to 'erase' fllay conviniently from the other people's minds. Seriously, Athrun had a flashback about Fllay and Kira didn't? that's how sick and compromised Fukuda is.

I could confirm K x L for myself and I don't need a stupid relationship chart designed to quell K x L fans.

[Arya]

Well, I was checking this 3d for some news on the movie, but reading about Kira that loved Flay really make me say, what? he had a crush on her and she used him and subjugated him with sex. This is not love. Lacus showed Kira what the word love really means.

[aeriolewinters]

he had a crush on her and she used him and subjugated him with sex. This is not love. Lacus showed Kira what the word love really means.

Oh... can we put rainbows in the background and have a choir sing while saying it? I'll show you a small snippet of your so called 'love'. The shopping scene in Destiny. Kira ignores everything Lacus tried on, and Lacus gets frustrated over that simple fact. Thus showing us that she can be a bit aggressive too.

No, Fllay showed us how love can change a person. All her hatred was a result of her love of her father. Yes, she used Kira, but after her hatred finally subsided, she realized that she really loved Kira. That to me is what makes Kira and Fllay more interesting. All the struggle, the denial and final confirmation that Kira loves Fllay and Fllay finally admitting that she loves Kira was one of the best scenes of this series. One of the biggest moments of this series was Kira's failure to protect Fllay, not only does this will be played in Destiny ep. 13, it is the reason why Kira chose to be in ZAFT... in order not to let Lacus slip away that way Fllay did. For Fllay, call me crazy, but I say that part of Kira's survival could be attributed to Fllay. It is in a way connected to the promise she made during that scene, that she would protect Kira. Spiritually, Kira's survival in Operation Angel down can be attributed to that promise.

[monster]

Ah, aeriolewinters, believe me when I say this: out of all of Kira's relationships with the opposite sex, the one he has with Lacus interests me the least (so far, anyway). But having said that, notice that I never said anything about Lacus in my previous post. Because this is really not about Lacus, but about Kira himself.

You have to realize that whatever feelings Kira may have had for Fllay in the beginning was tainted by the nature of their relationship and how it progressed. When you had Kira himself (the one who was in love in the first place between the two) wanting to end the relationship, you can't deny that somewhere along the way, their relationship has gone wrong.

Of course it's still possible that they could start over had Fllay survived since she appeared to have had a change of heart about Kira. But we can't just ignore the probability that Kira no longer feels the same way about Fllay. And for that matter, we can't even be certain that Fllay would want to pursue a romantic relationship with Kira. She might've just wanted to have closure with Kira and tell him how sorry she was for what she did to him.

As much as I would've loved to see it happen, I just don't think there's enough evidence to say that Fllay and Kira would've gotten back together had she survived SEED. It's a possibility, sure, but just that: a possibility.

[aeriolewinters]

But we can't just ignore the probability that Kira no longer feels the same way about Fllay. And for that matter, we can't even be certain that Fllay would want to pursue a romantic relationship with Kira. She might've just wanted to have closure with Kira and tell him how sorry she was for what she did to him.

Let's not kid ourselves, It was a copout by fukuda. He wanted to bank on K x L's popularity and the KxL fan's target was Fllay. Had the opinion on Fllay been at least 60-40, we'd probably still be debating with K x L fans right now but not about which relationship was better, but rather who kira should end up with. But it was not the case. Fllay was oftentimes the target of your typical K x L fanboy, which spelled her doom in TV, because the staff wasn't aiming to tell a story, the staff wanted to profit. If they wanted to profit, then the easy thing would be to keep K x L. The only thing wrong to me was that Fukuda never thought it over enough. Keeping Fllay along with the two would've been better as I would think Fllay gives another dimension to her pink-haired counterpart. Yeah I know it's crazy, but I believe that keeping Fllay alive would've made Lacus more interesting than what she currently is as a character.

But to cut my story short: Had Fllay never gotten the in the 30-70 love-hate range, we would've seen the said scenario above.

[Thousand Mistress]

Truth to be told, seeing that as Fukuda chose Kira to be with Lacus, it's maybe because he wanted it to end peacefully (although not as peacefully as we thought it would be)...
I know Flay's death had an impact on fans, but haven't you noticed? If Fllay were to be alive right now until Destiny, a very, very big change will occur. I can't determine what change will that be... but I know it will be pretty good, depends on the writer.

And speaking of the K x L x F triangle, I agree with aeriolewinters. The writers killed off Fllay because they didn't have the right story and scene to fit her in, and she didn't have a major role in the later parts of the anime. If Fukuda would have thought twice, then he would have altered episodes 35-50.

[Paladinoras]

Even if Fllay survived, it wouldn't have done jack-shit to Lacus and Kira's relationship. Near the end of SEED, Kira mistook Lacus for Fllay after he just got shot down in Freedom, and this is him on a fragile moment, and the fact that he can mistake those two girls can mean two very different things:

- He still loves Fllay, and he's hallucinating
- He already sees Lacus as a replacement for Fllay.

Hell, even when finally Rau shoots Fllay to oblivion, Kira didn't have a flashback on his memories with her, he flashbacked on the people he had failed to protect. In the end, that is just what Fllay is, someone he cared who he failed to protect. Cared, not loved.

And psch, didn't Kira bluntly tell Fllay that he doesn't want to pursue their relationship further?

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

But to cut my story short: Had Fllay never gotten the in the 30-70 love-hate range, we would've seen the said scenario above.

Maybe, but the point is we didn't see your scenario. If we're talking about a fanfic, then sure, dream up whatever scenario you want. But if we're talking about Gundam SEED, then we have to go with what we have no matter what the reason.

[Atlantis_Lux]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

And psch, didn't Kira bluntly tell Fllay that he doesn't want to pursue their relationship further?

Exactly XD
He bluntly dumped her, after having realized that their relationship was tainted and wrong to begin with. After that moment, we can fairly say that he still cares for her and he doesn't want her to die, but it's quite clear Kira doesn't want her anymore...
And poor Fflay, just every rejected girl in this world, only in that moment realizes she's really fallen for him.

Lacus... I find her an incredibly boring character, but from the very beginning she was meant to end up with Kira, in the most "Japanese" kind of relation, so no surprise they are so loved by Japanese fans.

[Washu-Chan]

Didn't I read somewhere that, in an interview, Morosawa said that Athrun was her favorite character?

[Arya]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Oh... can we put rainbows in the background and have a choir sing while saying it? I'll show you a small snippet of your so called 'love'. The shopping scene in Destiny. Kira ignores everything Lacus tried on, and Lacus gets frustrated over that simple fact. Thus showing us that she can be a bit aggressive too.

No, Fllay showed us how love can change a person. All her hatred was a result of her love of her father. Yes, she used Kira, but after her hatred finally subsided, she realized that she really loved Kira. That to me is what makes Kira and Fllay more interesting. All the struggle, the denial and final confirmation that Kira loves Fllay and Fllay finally admitting that she loves Kira was one of the best scenes of this series. One of the biggest moments of this series was Kira's failure to protect Fllay, not only does this will be played in Destiny ep. 13, it is the reason why Kira chose to be in ZAFT... in order not to let Lacus slip away that way Fllay did. For Fllay, call me crazy, but I say that part of Kira's survival could be attributed to Fllay. It is in a way connected to the promise she made during that scene, that she would protect Kira. Spiritually, Kira's survival in Operation Angel down can be attributed to that promise.

You said Destiny is biased by Fukuda so there no meaning using Destiny episodes to corroborate your thesis. Anways I don't want to change your idea here, if you have seen that in GS good for you. But I was really surprised. In my opinion in GS we started with some relationships or potential relationships that were all wrong in a way or another, Lacus/Atrhun and Kira/Flay (and cagalli/Kira, as a potential one). To end with the right ones. The first was an arranged one, so there nothing to debate here I guess, the second one, as I wrote before, started by Flay's hatred, as you have mentioned, and her desire of revenge. From the other hand there was Kira, in his state, that needed someone to rely on, and Flay took advantage of his needs and his crush on her to take her revenge. And if I remember right every result was eligible for her revenge, Kira killing coordinators or kira's death. This was the level of her love. He relied on the wrong person, and it was showed even in his behavior against Sai in a certain "I don't remember the number" episode.
But the moment he found something different, he was able to discern what was good (for him) and what was not. Someone who supported him, helped him and understood him. And from that moment he has never turned back. At the end all things got their place, Atrhun/Cagalli, Kira/Lacus, and Flay .. that died. In a way she reaped what she sowed.
And i'd say that the fact that she slept with him was one of a big hint to how a "not good" girl she was.
wow, I wrote too much

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

How many times are we going to have to resort to rely on 'official' data? This is the same staff that told us that Rau and Mwu were the last Newtypes and a Series later they say otherwise.This is also the same staff who are like christmas lights when asking about whether Kira and co. have been morally compromised. This is the same staff who quit on their main focal point, because he wasn't popular enough. What does this show you? Fukuda is afraid of fan backlash. Fukuda only said that Kira loved neither to avoid fan backlash from the LxK crowd. By doing that and making K x L canon in Destiny. It's an easy alibi to 'erase' fllay conviniently from the other people's minds. Seriously, Athrun had a flashback about Fllay and Kira didn't? that's how sick and compromised Fukuda is.

I could confirm K x L for myself and I don't need a stupid relationship chart designed to quell K x L fans.

And so ? It doesn't change the fact that the relationship chart are official data. Official data >>>> Everything.

Originally Posted by Arya

At the end all things got their place, Atrhun/Cagalli,

Actually, for me, Cagalli loves Kira more than she loves Athrun. Before she learned Kira was her brother, she was clearly more attracted to him than Athrun. When she learned the truth she was : "WTF noooooo, no no no noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo " Then after that, she started liking Athrun. But it's only because Kira is her brtither. And maybe that explain why in Destiny, they're not together anymore.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

Didn't I read somewhere that, in an interview, Morosawa said that Athrun was her favorite character?

Athrun and Lacus....IIRC

[AlphaDragoon]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Oh... can we put rainbows in the background and have a choir sing while saying it? I'll show you a small snippet of your so called 'love'. The shopping scene in Destiny. Kira ignores everything Lacus tried on, and Lacus gets frustrated over that simple fact. Thus showing us that she can be a bit aggressive too.

Eh...?

That scene looked straight out of a typical slice of life anime. The guy being clueless that the girl is trying to impress him a little bit and the girl gets annoyed.

As much as I don't like to sound forceful on things like this (since opinion is opinion) that does literally nothing to say Kira doesn't love Lacus. Actually, going by anime standards it's actually promoting their relationship.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

Eh...?

That scene looked straight out of a typical slice of life anime. The guy being clueless that the girl is trying to impress him a little bit and the girl gets annoyed.

As much as I don't like to sound forceful on things like this (since opinion is opinion) that does literally nothing to say Kira doesn't love Lacus. Actually, going by anime standards it's actually promoting their relationship.

Isn't that scene dead normal..?

A girl takes you shopping and you pass random comments at whatever she is wearing? Any normal girl would of course get pissed. Says nothing about love or attraction, it's just NORMAL.

In fact, if anything, the fact that Lacus never asked for Athrun's opinion shows you something, only Kira's opinion matters to her.