Is Sasuke Justified in Seeking Revenge Againast Konoha? [Anime]

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Killing just those involved in planning the coup d'etat doesn't sound like something a psychotic killer would do though. And while those left alive may not know there was a coup in the works, they probably did at least have some idea of which ones among them were dissatisfied with their clan's position in Konoha (and that dissatisfaction goes more or less hand in hand with supporting the coup). I'd like to think any halfway intelligent person among them would at least be suspicious of that, and wouldn't take Itachi's actions at face value.

true, but any kids say 12 or younger would have been easily influenced into thinking itachi went crazy and killed the clan and that the village had nothing to do with it. Sasuke was convinced of it after all and he's known as a genius.

Originally Posted by Hunter

I very much doubt there were many people within the Uchiha clan who weren't dissatified with their governement after they forced them all to live secluded from the rest of the village under suspicion of the greatest crime in the history of Konoha. In fact I'm pretty sure nearly the entire clan was activally working in favor of the coup.

same thing. the kids were totally unaware of this and were actually taught to be proud of their clan in that they were given (falsely, but still unknown to the kids) the title and position of ninja police officers for the village. so I really don't see why they couldn't save the kids. It makes for a better and more impactful story/mystery and then surprise to have itachi kill everyone but sasuke, but in hypothetical terms, I just don't see why they had to kill them.

But to return on Sasuke (and ignoring that I think he turned to dark side of sheer stupidity and/or insanity) I actually think that he'd have a good reason to destroy most if not all of Konoha even if he was thinking rationally.
The Elders aren't just anyone, they are two third of Konoha's governement, just getting to them probably mean a huge fight with lot of casualities in Konoha's rank and then once it's done what would Sasuke do? He would be a rogue ninja with a death warrant on his head hidding, from every living Konoha ninja.
It is pretty much the same rational Danzou and the elders shared, it may be montruous be it makes perfect sense to utterly destroy Konoha if Sasuke intends to get away with his revenge and start his clan anew later.

good points but sasuke is clearly not thinking this way. his words and the look on his face is maniacal and blood thirsty when it comes to killing all of konoha. he's not doing it out of logic. I do think it is justified though

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

It is probable that Itachi did exactly know what will Danzou and Tobi do with the remaining weak ones, that is children, women and elders. To prevent their possibly painful and slow death, or to prevent the disgrace that the Uchiha clan is being killed by the root anbu or some henchmen of Tobi he chose to do it himself. We know how both Danzou and Tobi collected eyes, they would have killed these people sooner or later, because they were defensless without the strong ones.

I dont quite see the logic here. kill them now so they dont possibly get killed later? also I seriously doubt sarutobi would stand for the kids being abused. he only went along with the massacre plan because it was the lesser of two evils. torturing/murdering kids is just evil. the kids wouldn't just be on their own in a dark alley or something. they would have been protected by the village just like sasuke was.

edit: also, you guys are assuming that no adults would side with konoha. itachi did and he's an uchiha.

Spoiler for spoiler:

apparently shisui did as well.

so why is it impossible for others to do so as well?

[xKeir]

Originally Posted by Akashin

They didn't really have the means to kill only certain Uchiha, though. Even if Itachi had delivered to them a perfect list of who the conspirators were and they killed only those Uchiha, what exactly do you think the survivors would do? It's hard to say what exactly would have come of that, but it's not hard to see the survivors inciting a civil war anyway simply for revenge. If nothing else, I'd like to think Sarutobi would have gone that route if he felt he could.

The massacre may have been evil, but it was probably a necessary one.

Going by that logic. Think it in reverse.

If Sasuke were to only go after the people responsible for the Massacre , say mainly the 2 Elders [since Sarutobi & Danzo are dead alr] , Konoha would protect the 2 old geezers. Sasuke too don't really have the means to only kill the 2 Elders if the shinobi of Konoha are out there protecting them!

So Sasuke's desire for revenge may have been evil , but its necessary if the Shinobi of Konoha themselves put their lives on the line to protect them -.-

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by xKeir

Going by that logic. Think it in reverse.

If Sasuke were to only go after the people responsible for the Massacre , say mainly the 2 Elders [since Sarutobi & Danzo are dead alr] , Konoha would protect the 2 old geezers. Sasuke too don't really have the means to only kill the 2 Elders if the shinobi of Konoha are out there protecting them!

So Sasuke's desire for revenge may have been evil , but its necessary if the Shinobi of Konoha themselves put their lives on the line to protect them -.-

Definitely agree here--If Sasuke were going just after the Elders, additional casualties would be understandable. Like itachi-san314 said though, that's clearly not the case; Sasuke just wants to destroy the village, and even though the Elders are high up on his hit list they're definitely not his only targets.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

I dont quite see the logic here. kill them now so they dont possibly get killed later? also I seriously doubt sarutobi would stand for the kids being abused. he only went along with the massacre plan because it was the lesser of two evils. torturing/murdering kids is just evil. the kids wouldn't just be on their own in a dark alley or something. they would have been protected by the village just like sasuke was.

A painless death can be one of the reasons. I didn't say this is the reason, just that this might be one of the reasons. But i think this cursed destiny of the Uchiha clan that Tobi talked about is much more likely to be the reason. Maybe Itachi feared that Madara would eventually recreate the old Uchiha clan where brothers and best friends killed each other just to be come stronger. But as i mentioned in the Naruto world what is logical is not really the same what is logical to us. Just look at the 4th hokage's decision of dying just because the 9 tails could come back some day and someone whose idenity isn't even confirmed might be able to use it again, instead of living to tell the truth behind the attack to everyone. He had time to leave a message to the 3rd hokage but he didn't. Even Jiraiya could leave a message when he was already almost dead and had like 5 seconds to do so. So Itachi's decision by this definition of logic is not so horrible

As for Sarutobi, we can clearly say he was out of control on this matter. Just look at how he was unaware that Orochimaru kidnapped people of his own village and tortured them in their experiments, he and Danzou created Danzou's special arm which had sharingans and 1st hokage's cells. Daznou was killing around the world freely, which caused the birth of Pain.

And Sarutobi didn't go along the massacre, he was trying to find a peaceful solution until the end. Even Tobi said that. Again, the events went out of control of the 3rd hokage. It was Danzou who heavily influenced the only 13 year child Itachi. You can see by that how inhuman world the Narutoverse is, when in the village of the "will of fire" children are raised to become "tools" of the village. You can see how Kishimoto wanted to keep Sarutobi's name clean in this story, and let Danzou be the evil guy, that was the intent of the writer, that is how these characters are. You can see his intent clearly in Danzou's flashback when he dies, there you see the difference between the hero and the coward, the huge difference between Sarutobi and Danzou.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

A painless death can be one of the reasons. I didn't say this is the reason, just that this might be one of the reasons. But i think this cursed destiny of the Uchiha clan that Tobi talked about is much more likely to be the reason. Maybe Itachi feared that Madara would eventually recreate the old Uchiha clan where brothers and best friends killed each other just to be come stronger. But as i mentioned in the Naruto world what is logical is not really the same what is logical to us. Just look at the 4th hokage's decision of dying just because the 9 tails could come back some day and someone whose idenity isn't even confirmed might be able to use it again, instead of living to tell the truth behind the attack to everyone. He had time to leave a message to the 3rd hokage but he didn't. Even Jiraiya could leave a message when he was already almost dead and had like 5 seconds to do so. So Itachi's decision by this definition of logic is not so horrible

hehe true. I also think he changed / tweaked the story as he went along which would explain why some things like minato leaving a message were just impossible by that point. I also kind of believe that when the story first came out he didn't intend on having itachi become good which would further explain why only sasuke was spared. that's a completely unprovable theory though. I'm just saying it's possible.

As for Sarutobi, we can clearly say he was out of control on this matter. Just look at how he was unaware that Orochimaru kidnapped people of his own village and tortured them in their experiments, he and Danzou created Danzou's special arm which had sharingans and 1st hokage's cells. Daznou was killing around the world freely, which caused the birth of Pain.

true. but he did a good job protecting sasuke. of course nobody can be protected 100% of the time which is how he got the curse mark, but all in all, sasuke was fairly well protected by the village. once his sharingan activated, danzo didn't try to take them. of course this was at a point in time when danzo was probably not even a character in kishi's mind yet.

And Sarutobi didn't go along the massacre, he was trying to find a peaceful solution until the end. Even Tobi said that. Again, the events went out of control of the 3rd hokage. It was Danzou who heavily influenced the only 13 year child Itachi. You can see by that how inhuman world the Narutoverse is, when in the village of the "will of fire" children are raised to become "tools" of the village. You can see how Kishimoto wanted to keep Sarutobi's name clean in this story, and let Danzou be the evil guy, that was the intent of the writer, that is how these characters are. You can see his intent clearly in Danzou's flashback when he dies, there you see the difference between the hero and the coward, the huge difference between Sarutobi and Danzou.

true. I guess what I was implying is that sarutobi had the ability to stop the massacre either by force or by warning particular uchiha members who he trusted most to stop itachi themselves or just leave the village. I agree with your point though about setting up danzo to be the bad guy in all of this and sarutobi to keep his hands as clean as possible.

I guess all I'm really getting at is that if the village and sarutobi could protect sasuke, they could protect all the kids. keep in mind that itachi was always a threat to anyone who would mess with the survivors too

[xKeir]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

As for Sarutobi, we can clearly say he was out of control on this matter. Just look at how he was unaware that Orochimaru kidnapped people of his own village and tortured them in their experiments, he and Danzou created Danzou's special arm which had sharingans and 1st hokage's cells. Daznou was killing around the world freely, which caused the birth of Pain.

And Sarutobi didn't go along the massacre, he was trying to find a peaceful solution until the end. Even Tobi said that. Again, the events went out of control of the 3rd hokage. It was Danzou who heavily influenced the only 13 year child Itachi. You can see by that how inhuman world the Narutoverse is, when in the village of the "will of fire" children are raised to become "tools" of the village. You can see how Kishimoto wanted to keep Sarutobi's name clean in this story, and let Danzou be the evil guy, that was the intent of the writer, that is how these characters are. You can see his intent clearly in Danzou's flashback when he dies, there you see the difference between the hero and the coward, the huge difference between Sarutobi and Danzou.

Actually Sarutobi had his suspicions and was investigating the cause of the many kidnappings throughout the village. He just didn't have the heart to kill Orochimaru when he finally reached the hideout. So he wasn't completely oblivious. It was more of him being unwilling to face the truth. Orochimaru was his prized student afterall. As for Danzo .. he's like a teenage kid seriously. U can't really control him. he just goes around wrecking havoc. Look at how he created ROOT. He has his own personal ANBU squad its like he's a mini-hokage.
I don't think Sarutobi is stupid or anything. He treated Danzou as a comrade and friend. So i think his only weakness is his compassion and softness.

About your last paragraph i agree with practically everything especially the part about Kishimoto wanting Danzo to be the bad guy and Sarutobi the good one.

But i feel its a little extreme to call Danzou a coward. He may be a coward when he was still young. Frankly i never really liked that idiot. But i thought for all he had done for the leaf calling him a coward till the very end is doing him a little in justice. Thats actually one of the things i like about Naruto. They make the villains look all evil and give you a chance to like them right at the very end. Maybe its just me but yeah.

[23 gundam fan]

Originally Posted by Akashin

They didn't really have the means to kill only certain Uchiha, though. Even if Itachi had delivered to them a perfect list of who the conspirators were and they killed only those Uchiha, what exactly do you think the survivors would do? It's hard to say what exactly would have come of that, but it's not hard to see the survivors inciting a civil war anyway simply for revenge. If nothing else, I'd like to think Sarutobi would have gone that route if he felt he could.

The massacre may have been evil, but it was probably a necessary one.

i hear you but maybe the 3th hokage could have worked out a peace with the ringleaders, you get them onboard the others will follow. the fact is the village atitude was hey if any live, they will be pissed. so lets kill them all even the innocent. how does a village do that and not commit a great sin itself. i mean the elders should have thought about putting some unchiha in there rightful positions as leaders of the village to begin with. the whole screw them over situation is what started all of this in the first place. even if you say the massarce was evil . well the village is paying for that evil act. the village has to pay for there crimes as well.

[ZGoten]

Revenge is never justified, because crimes remain crimes regardless of one's motivation or victim.

[NeoChan]

I don't see the point why he puts his anger against Konoha and takes revenge.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by NeoChan

I don't see the point why he puts his anger against Konoha and takes revenge.

What exactly do you think the alternative is? Gritting his teeth and making nice with Konoha, knowing that their elders are responsible for screwing his and Itachi's lives? I don't think the Sasuke of Part One would have done that, nevermind Sasuke as he is now.

[23 gundam fan]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

A painless death can be one of the reasons. I didn't say this is the reason, just that this might be one of the reasons. But i think this cursed destiny of the Uchiha clan that Tobi talked about is much more likely to be the reason. Maybe Itachi feared that Madara would eventually recreate the old Uchiha clan where brothers and best friends killed each other just to be come stronger. But as i mentioned in the Naruto world what is logical is not really the same what is logical to us. Just look at the 4th hokage's decision of dying just because the 9 tails could come back some day and someone whose idenity isn't even confirmed might be able to use it again, instead of living to tell the truth behind the attack to everyone. He had time to leave a message to the 3rd hokage but he didn't. Even Jiraiya could leave a message when he was already almost dead and had like 5 seconds to do so. So Itachi's decision by this definition of logic is not so horrible

As for Sarutobi, we can clearly say he was out of control on this matter. Just look at how he was unaware that Orochimaru kidnapped people of his own village and tortured them in their experiments, he and Danzou created Danzou's special arm which had sharingans and 1st hokage's cells. Daznou was killing around the world freely, which caused the birth of Pain.

And Sarutobi didn't go along the massacre, he was trying to find a peaceful solution until the end. Even Tobi said that. Again, the events went out of control of the 3rd hokage. It was Danzou who heavily influenced the only 13 year child Itachi. You can see by that how inhuman world the Narutoverse is, when in the village of the "will of fire" children are raised to become "tools" of the village. You can see how Kishimoto wanted to keep Sarutobi's name clean in this story, and let Danzou be the evil guy, that was the intent of the writer, that is how these characters are. You can see his intent clearly in Danzou's flashback when he dies, there you see the difference between the hero and the coward, the huge difference between Sarutobi and Danzou.

i have a bit of a problem with the sarutobi role in the unchiha massarce. it seems to me we use excuses for the 3rd. such as he didnt know about the elders plan or the situation went out of control. i dont get this, everyone goes on and on about how smart and powerful he is, but the hokage that is called the greatest doesnt know what the elders are planning or cannot stop them if he does. it seems kish writes the 3rd up as all powerful and then for storyline sake, says lets make him a old man who doesnt know whats going on behind the scences. im just calling it the way i see it. i mean what type of kage is he if the elders( who were his squad members and grew up with him) doesnt respect him and his authority, and go over his head so to speak and do what they want to. last time i ckecked the hokage is the leader of the village. and after the act was done we saw nothing to make us believe he did anything about there rash actions. it just seem he let it go, whose to say the elders wont make a habit of things like this, it doesnt show good leadership to me.

[NeoChan]

Originally Posted by Akashin

What exactly do you think the alternative is? Gritting his teeth and making nice with Konoha, knowing that their elders are responsible for screwing his and Itachi's lives? I don't think the Sasuke of Part One would have done that, nevermind Sasuke as he is
now.

Sorry, but when I said "against Konoha" it means everyone in Konaha. I meant every single one of them. If he got problems, why not attack the elders themselves, rather compomising the innocent.

[El_Negro]

Originally Posted by NeoChan

Sorry, but when I said "against Konoha" it means everyone in Konaha. I meant every single one of them. If he got problems, why not attack the elders themselves, rather compomising the innocent.

You see Sasuke believes that everyone in Konoha should suffer since his clan was brutally slaughtered for the *peace* that Konoha now enjoys. he stated this himself when he told kakashi that they are all laughing, yet they do not know how much itachi and his clansmen suffered so that they can gain & enjoy their laughter. Henceforth it's not just the elders it's everyone who is benefitting from the peace derived by the massacre of his clansmen and itachi.

[23 gundam fan]

Originally Posted by NeoChan

Sorry, but when I said "against Konoha" it means everyone in Konaha. I meant every single one of them. If he got problems, why not attack the elders themselves, rather compomising the innocent.

you mean the way the konoha elders when out of there way to save the innocent unchiha who didnt know or have anything to do with the coup. in other words konoha set the stage of killing the innocent, whether for the greater good or not. they did it, now they have to deal with there choices.

[NeoChan]

Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan

you mean the way the konoha elders when out of there way to save the innocent unchiha who didnt know or have anything to do with the coup. in other words konoha set the stage of killing the innocent, whether for the greater good or not. they did it, now they have to deal with there choices.

So he'll do the same...hayst.. poor guy.. He is no different from the ones who stage the massacre.

[xKeir]

Its all in a matter of perspective. Honestly , i don't think ANYONE is wrong.

Not even the Elders or Danzo. If i were in their shoes i too would make the decision to order the massacre if i had news the unmatched Uchiha clan were planning a coup that could well decide the destruction of the Leaf. Under their perspective , as a 'Leader' of the village i have to protect the people. Its their responsibility to get rid of any threats. The Uchiha made their choice. Its only counted as unfortunate for those not involved in the coup to be implicated. A necessary sacrifice for the sake of the village ..
[sadly i have no idea why i agree actually. maybe im just a sadist]

Putting myself in Sasuke's shoes i would kill the hell of the very people who killed my family and clan. I really think what made it worst was that Sasuke chased Itachi for the span of his entire life and realized Itachi was all good and was just a scape goat the village used.
Just picture this. You spend 15 years [tentatively] of your life working to kill your brother whom u thought had killed your family only to realize that it was the people whom u had been living with this 15 years who were responsible.

So yeah. No one is wrong imo.

[23 gundam fan]

Originally Posted by xKeir

Its all in a matter of perspective. Honestly , i don't think ANYONE is wrong.

Not even the Elders or Danzo. If i were in their shoes i too would make the decision to order the massacre if i had news the unmatched Uchiha clan were planning a coup that could well decide the destruction of the Leaf. Under their perspective , as a 'Leader' of the village i have to protect the people. Its their responsibility to get rid of any threats. The Uchiha made their choice. Its only counted as unfortunate for those not involved in the coup to be implicated. A necessary sacrifice for the sake of the village ..
[sadly i have no idea why i agree actually. maybe im just a sadist]

Putting myself in Sasuke's shoes i would kill the hell of the very people who killed my family and clan. I really think what made it worst was that Sasuke chased Itachi for the span of his entire life and realized Itachi was all good and was just a scape goat the village used.
Just picture this. You spend 15 years [tentatively] of your life working to kill your brother whom u thought had killed your family only to realize that it was the people whom u had been living with this 15 years who were responsible.

So yeah. No one is wrong imo.

when you get right down to it. you are right, yet most of us go on about which side was right. the fact is both konoha and sasuke are doing what is only natural as far as how they have reacted to these events. who is to be truly blamed, in the end who really knows. thats the real tragic situation here.

[Ulquiorra]

I don't think this needs as much thought. When Kishimoto decided to have Sasuke seek vengeance against all of Konoha, he clearly portrayed him as going off the deep end and being in the wrong. All we need to do is look at his last conversation with Naruto when he goes bonkers thinking the Konoha 11 are having a laugh about Itachi's sacrifice. The guy is not well. No mangaka is going to portray "killing everyone" as a rational solution.

If Kishimoto wanted Sasuke to be justified in his revenge, he would of simply had Sasuke target Danzou(like he did) and the elders. But instead he chose to highlight Sasuke's mental instability and have him decide to wipe out of of Konoha, including Naruto, Kakashi, and Sakura, since its existence is due to Itachi's sacrifice. He even broke the bonds of his current team, discarding them like trash.

At this point Sasuke is sick and the only thing that will save him is converting to Narutism. Which will happen at the end of the manga.

What is a major theme of Naruto? Revenge is wrong. Everyone who has sought revenge in this manga, from Sasuke to Orochimaru to Madara to Nagato, has ended messed up and twisted by it. Now wait you say. What about Shikamaru and Hidan? To be honest, I don't see the problem there. Even if Kishimoto's writing has plot holes the size of ships. Hidan and Kakuzu told Shikamaru and his group they were coming back for Naruto and Asuma's body. And they were going to specifically kill Shikamaru for messing with them. Shikamaru didn't have to seek them. They were returning to Konoha. Either he ran away and let someone else deal with them or he manned up and faced them himself.

But anyway, Sasuke vs. Konoha could have been an awesome plot. Sadly Kishi only teased it. It would open a huge can of worms rather than the silly DBZ nonsense we are reading now. What would Naruto do if Sasuke badly hurt Hinata, Sakura, or Shikamaru? Hell, any of them? What if he killed Tsunade or Kakashi?

I guess it could still happen. I really have no clue what Kishi will do with Sasuke. He is sort of a dead character now with no progression and doesn't really fit in with current events.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

I don't think this needs as much thought. When Kishimoto decided to have Sasuke seek vengeance against all of Konoha, he clearly portrayed him as going off the deep end and being in the wrong. All we need to do is look at his last conversation with Naruto when he goes bonkers thinking the Konoha 11 are having a laugh about Itachi's sacrifice. The guy is not well. No mangaka is going to portray "killing everyone" as a rational solution.

kishi portrayed the elders and itachi killing everyone as a rational solution. you are right that sasuke is maniacal and morally wrong, but his insanity was created by that decision to kill his entire clan and destroy his brother's life. this is why i think it is justified. konoha is reaping what it sewed similar to dr. frankenstein and the monster.

I guess it could still happen. I really have no clue what Kishi will do with Sasuke. He is sort of a dead character now with no progression and doesn't really fit in with current events.

I don't see what you mean here. you just talked about sasuke's progression and now you say he doesn't have any. his character actually has made very significant development both in personality and ability. of course we don't know what will happen, but whatever sasuke does it fits in with current events.

Spoiler for he will:

either be mostly directed at kabuto and itachi or at naruto and konoha

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

I don't think this needs as much thought. When Kishimoto decided to have Sasuke seek vengeance against all of Konoha, he clearly portrayed him as going off the deep end and being in the wrong. All we need to do is look at his last conversation with Naruto when he goes bonkers thinking the Konoha 11 are having a laugh about Itachi's sacrifice. The guy is not well. No mangaka is going to portray "killing everyone" as a rational solution.

Sasuke does appear to be bit insane and well on his way to full fledged murderous maniac at this point but you completely missed his point in this conversation. He didn't think they were having a laugh at Itachi and his clan's expense (they don't even know about it), he think they are able to laugh and enjoy peace only thanks to Itachi's sacrifice and the slaughter of his clan. Which make him bonker.

What is a major theme of Naruto? Revenge is wrong. Everyone who has sought revenge in this manga, from Sasuke to Orochimaru to Madara to Nagato, has ended messed up and twisted by it. Now wait you say. What about Shikamaru and Hidan? To be honest, I don't see the problem there. Even if Kishimoto's writing has plot holes the size of ships. Hidan and Kakuzu told Shikamaru and his group they were coming back for Naruto and Asuma's body. And they were going to specifically kill Shikamaru for messing with them. Shikamaru didn't have to seek them. They were returning to Konoha. Either he ran away and let someone else deal with them or he manned up and faced them himself.

You know that's bull even as rationalization goes. Shika did have to seek them out, was under direct order to stay out of it and would have been slaughtered along with his friend if he hadn't gotten lucky when Tsunade and Kakashi caught them before they left the village.
The author simply deemed this revenge okay and so it was, that's all there is to it.

itachi-san314, Ulquiorra thinks -with reason I believe- that there is nowhere for Sasuke' characterization to go from now on because there is no way he can success in any meaningfull form in his goal. His character died the moment he accepted (for no reason) that he would kill Naruto first before he went after anyone else.
Naruto can't ever be wrong so Sasuke won't ignore him and kill people left and right which would put Naruto in a difficult position, he might have a meaningless fight against another bad guy or beat up (and not kill) some named good guys but save from that his only future is a fight with Naruto before the inevitable and ridiculous brainwash.