Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon - General Discussion

[winhlp32]

Originally Posted by zeniselv

whats wrong with that?, also those are called arcs, and every manga, ligth novel and even most books that have more than one volume have them.

Nothing really wrong with it. I just tend to prefer a more cohesive narrative rather than separate arcs.

[Duo Maxwell]

Every show has separated arcs. People just don't recognize the transition.

And if you bother read this thread, you will know that there is no way it can be "novel chapter-by-chapter episodics". You have 12 eps, and a 1300 pages of material for volume 1. Mind you, they are not just pointless words to fill up the book.

[winhlp32]

I am aware of how big each volume is. But I was kind of worried there with Suzuku talking about 60% of the material are settings explanation/world building. This then reminded me the Index novels, a series where its selling point is also its interestingly vast universe and characters. But personally I didn't enjoy how Index told its stories, and I was wondering if Horizon was going to have a similar vein of story telling.

[articuzwolf]

Originally Posted by Suzuku

Oh, I forgot that a "simple" explanation of the setting of the story was posted on 2ch a while back, I'll translate it.

That was definitely easier to understand, but the setup still seems crazy lol.

so they aren't gonna show it in the anime then

Originally Posted by winhlp32

I am aware of how big each volume is. But I was kind of worried there with Suzuku talking about 60% of the material are settings explanation/world building. This then reminded me the Index novels, a series where its selling point is also its interestingly vast universe and characters. But personally I didn't enjoy how Index told its stories, and I was wondering if Horizon was going to have a similar vein of story telling.

at least you know that J.C Staff isn't the one who responsible for this anime

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by articuzwolf

at least you know that J.C Staff isn't the one who responsible for this anime

Which incidentally, has no relation to how the story is written in the Light Novel -_- And therefore have no say in how the story is being told...

Originally Posted by winhlp32

I am aware of how big each volume is. But I was kind of worried there with Suzuku talking about 60% of the material are settings explanation/world building. This then reminded me the Index novels, a series where its selling point is also its interestingly vast universe and characters. But personally I didn't enjoy how Index told its stories, and I was wondering if Horizon was going to have a similar vein of story telling.

...Which incidentally, still does not in any way dictate how the story is being told, only that the focus is on the setting and character. That said, a story this big, segmenting it is unavoidable imo... How well those segment plays into the overall story...? I guess we'll have to see.

(For the record, Index's story Arcs do connect to each other, but the connection takes some time to link it all together to see the big picture.)

[larethian]

Originally Posted by winhlp32

Nothing really wrong with it. I just tend to prefer a more cohesive narrative rather than separate arcs.

Originally Posted by winhlp32

I am aware of how big each volume is. But I was kind of worried there with Suzuku talking about 60% of the material are settings explanation/world building. This then reminded me the Index novels, a series where its selling point is also its interestingly vast universe and characters. But personally I didn't enjoy how Index told its stories, and I was wondering if Horizon was going to have a similar vein of story telling.

not sure what chapters and arcs you're referring to and whether you're talking about anime or novels, but like what Chaos2Frozen said, the initial Index arcs are buildups and serve to pan out the greater story later. however, Index's strength is not in characterizations, especially with respect to the supporting female characters. this is just a guess but the somewhat unbalanced plot scale and characterization depth might have contributed to how you've felt, assuming you've read the novels.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by articuzwolf

at least you know that J.C Staff isn't the one who responsible for this anime

Well the way Sunrise handled the Kuro Kami manga is arguably worse than anything J.C Staff did with a light novel series... but I'm not worried since this has completely different staff involved and the director of Horizon intends to be faithful from the interview stuopidget translated. Though I do hope they take advantage of the medium they're working with...

[Allen]

Originally Posted by Suzuku

That was definitely easier to understand, but the setup still seems crazy lol.

? The setup is crazy

Originally Posted by winhlp32

I hope this has an actual story instead of being just novel chapter-by-chapter episodics like Index. Don't really want to see another harem male lead meet different characters and "destroying their illusions".

Horizon's arcs are always continuous. In this sense it's different from Index that takes some time to enter into the "real story".

Originally Posted by articuzwolf

so they aren't gonna show it in the anime then

Spoiler:

Toori's power itself is revealed already in the first volume. But how high is its price and the first "real" time that he used it was showed just in the latest volume.

And if there is someone that don't care about spoilers I made a summary for the first volume (first season) in the LN thread.

[Suzuku]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Which incidentally, has no relation to how the story is written in the Light Novel -_- And therefore have no say in how the story is being told...



...Which incidentally, still does not in any way dictate how the story is being told, only that the focus is on the setting and character. That said, a story this big, segmenting it is unavoidable imo... How well those segment plays into the overall story...? I guess we'll have to see.

(For the record, Index's story Arcs do connect to each other, but the connection takes some time to link it all together to see the big picture.)

I think he was referring to the way J.C.Staff portrayed the story in Index II, which was very rushed and left out a lot of the exposition that we're talking about. Well, I say J.C.Staff, but it was the director and the series composer's decision, so we shouldn't say that J.C.Staff is inherently bad. Now, if we're taping about animation, then yeah, it's definitely a good thing Sunrise is doing this and not J.C.Staff.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Suzuku

I think he was referring to the way J.C.Staff portrayed the story in Index II, which was very rushed and left out a lot of the exposition that we're talking about. Well, I say J.C.Staff, but it was the director and the series composer's decision, so we shouldn't say that J.C.Staff is inherently bad. Now, if we're taping about animation, then yeah, it's definitely a good thing Sunrise is doing this and not J.C.Staff.

Ah but you see, winhlp32 was talking about the novel and how it's style of story telling, which is one small seemingly isolated arc at a time rather than direct continuation story is not to his liking- winhlp32 was not referring to the Anime's direction and storyboard because not matter how good or bad, it still follows the Novel's format.

Hence why I found articuzwolf's comment to be out of place.

[Genjo]

Originally Posted by stuopidget

Visual comparison with Index novels

yeah know i am going take a wild guess and say there going make well over 100 eps plus

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Genjo

yeah know i am going take a wild guess and say there going make well over 100 eps plus

Only if it sells, otherwise you'll end up with a split cour show only. (24-26 episodes)

[articuzwolf]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Which incidentally, has no relation to how the story is written in the Light Novel -_- And therefore have no say in how the story is being told...

yeah I got it wrong, I thought winhlp32 said that he didn't enjoy how Index told its stories (in the anime). my bad

Originally Posted by Westlo

Well the way Sunrise handled the Kuro Kami manga is arguably worse than anything J.C Staff did with a light novel series... but I'm not worried since this has completely different staff involved and the director of Horizon intends to be faithful from the interview stuopidget translated. Though I do hope they take advantage of the medium they're working with...

Kurokami isn't that bad (although yeah it's kinda weird and cheesy sometimes LOL)
but at least I like it more than Yumekui Merry (which is also manga adaptation and it was done by J.C Staff)

[4Tran]

I'm a bit on the fence as to whether or not to watch this show. I'm turned off by Sunrise science fantasy shows in general, but Horizon seems to have so much disaster potential that it's a bit hard to pass up. The story outline and the character design really stand out in this regard.

Originally Posted by Westlo

Well the way Sunrise handled the Kuro Kami manga is arguably worse than anything J.C Staff did with a light novel series... but I'm not worried since this has completely different staff involved and the director of Horizon intends to be faithful from the interview stuopidget translated. Though I do hope they take advantage of the medium they're working with...

Out of curiosity, do you have any information about how Kurokami went wrong? The director and writer have a pretty darned good record, but it was barely watchable. Was it a case of directorial abandonment like Star Driver?

[Kaioshin Sama]

Well for me it's that the story and character design still look kind of meh (typical with how I view light novels) but I trust in the studio and staff involved to bring out it's potential. I'm firmly in tune with Sunrise's way of handling Sci-Fi/Fantasy and still feel they do that genre among the best of any studio in the industry (probably comes with experience), but I'd suggest that if other people still have issues with how they do things (the "hurr Sunrise trainwreck" line of thought seems to be really peaking it's ugly head up again heading into this fall season after a refreshing break from it during the summer) they best just not bother with this.

As far as I know most of what people gripe about with Kurokami is that the main character is completely different in the original Manwha (yes manwha not manga) where he's a basically a total asshole and things are portrayed a lot more violently in terms of his relationship with Kuro. I can only assume the change was made to make him appeal more to multiple audiences since Kurokami was basically viewed by Sunrise/Bandai as a means to jump start their simultaneous region release program (which really took off with Unicorn) with a license that could be acquired reasonably cheaply. I saw a few episodes of it, it was entertaining, but largely forgettable action fare. I never saw it as bad though, but then maybe that's cause I prefer to view adaptations as independently from their source material as possible rather than to gauge them based on how faithful they are to their source.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Well for me it's that the story and character design still look kind of meh (typical with how I view light novels) but I trust in the studio and staff involved to bring out it's potential.

I'd bet that Horizon will be at least as entertaining as Dragonaut!

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I'd bet that Horizon will be at least as entertaining as Dragonaut!

You know I couldn't quite put my finger on what I found familiar about this show, but now that you point it out there is something that brings Dragonaut to mind. Probably the oversized bust on most of the character designs.

Sunrise can definitely do it's entertaining bizzaro shows in the same way the likes of Gainax, Satelight and Gonzo can, but I'm certainly hoping it doesn't have that downright crassness to it's narative that Dragonaut has. I'm hoping for something more like a Gurren Lagann or a Glass No Kantai and something less like a Dragonaut or Kurogane no Line barrels.

[Suzuku]

Here's another "summary" of the plot, this one has a bit more information than the other one but it's still...difficult to understand, to say the least.

人類が天上から戻った時代。唯一人類が地球上で生活可能な土地を舞台に、
改めて人類が天上へ戻ることを目的として過去の歴史を再現する世界。
極東と呼ばれる国の独立領土「武蔵」にある学院の生徒たちを取り巻く騒動を描く

極東（きょくとう）P.A.Oda（ピーエーオダ） 六護式仏蘭西（エグザゴンフランセーズ）
M.H.R.R.（神聖ローマ帝国） K.P.A.Italia（ケーピーエーイタリア） 三征西班牙（トレス・エスパニア）
上越露西亜（スヴィエートルーシ）清武田（しんたけだ） 等の国が作中に存在し
そして各国にある大罪武装（たいざいぶそう／ロイズモイ・オプロ）を求め
武蔵の生徒達は各国と相対しに行く

[The story] takes place during a time when mankind returns [to Earth] from the heavens (Tenjou). In the only inhabitable land on the planet, mankind begins to recreate history in the hopes of returning to Tenjou once again.
The independent territory of the the Far East, the Musashi, is filled with students which causes conflict.

The countries in this story are The Far East (Japan), P.A.Oda, Hexagone Francaise (France), M.H.R.R (The Holy Roman Empire), K.P.A.Italia, Tres Espana (Spain), Soviet Russia, and The Qing Dynasty (China). Each country wants the Daizai Busou (lit. Gravely Sinful Weapon, guessing it's equivalent to a nuke or something). The students of the Musashi set out to confront each country.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

You know I couldn't quite put my finger on what I found familiar about this show, but now that you point it out there is something that brings Dragonaut to mind. Probably the oversized bust on most of the character designs.

Dragonaut and Horizon have the same directors.

Originally Posted by Suzuku

Here's another "summary" of the plot, this one has a bit more information than the other one but it's still...difficult to understand, to say the least.

It's like someone took a list of vaguely space operaish terms, tossed them in a blender, and wrote it up as a summary. And then decide that wasn't unique enough, so they added students.

[Westlo]

I'm not too worried about the director being the same as Dragonauts... my fav anime of the last 8 years in Bacanno! didn't exactly have a steller staff working on it.. but they had great source material and adapted it in an intriguing manner by doing 3 plotlines/4 novels @ once... and now look @ them.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Out of curiosity, do you have any information about how Kurokami went wrong? The director and writer have a pretty darned good record, but it was barely watchable. Was it a case of directorial abandonment like Star Driver?

A lot went wrong, not only did Kurokami fail as an adaption, more importantly it failed as a stand alone show itself. It's always hard to make an adaption of an ongoing manga but they made a poor fist of this. The pacing was all over the place and it was apparent to people who never knew this was even based on a manga, at times it came across as more a summary of things than an actual story being told... it didn't help that character development was poor as well, not helped when the main character to undergo character development in the manga was gimped in the anime. Imagine if Luke from Tales of the Abyss had no character development.. tadah!

Anyway a good example is that little girl from Episode... was it 1 or 2? Whatever, in the manga you get to know her before it tries to pull your heartstrings. Cheap attempt to do so? Yes, but it works for a lot of people. In the anime, you don't know her, why does it matter? It doesn't. The manga version had "heart", it showed development of the main character, the anime had none of that. Kurokami could've been way more different than it actually was.. but if it had actual development, proper pacing and emotion than it would've been received a heck of a lot better. Maybe not from manga readers.. but considering it was a turd to most viewers and the manga fanbase was small anyway...

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

As far as I know most of what people gripe about with Kurokami is that the main character is completely different in the original Manwha (yes manwha not manga)

It's a manga, yes it's by Koreans and also released in Korea but Kuro Kami was commissioned by Square Exix for its bi-monthly seinen magazine Young Gangan. The omakes for the manga show how it is made... the author.illustrator make fun of the fact that they know zero Japanese.

IM Dal-Young's Unbalance x Unbalance is an example of a Manwha translated into a manga. Though the manga release has started to take priority over the original manwha.. which was stopped to allow the manga release to catch up.

KuroKami is like Defense Devil, made by Koreans for Japan.

where he's a basically a total asshole and things are portrayed a lot more violently in terms of his relationship with Kuro.

Total asshole? Violent relationship? Over exaggerate much? He boxed Kuro in the ears a few times... what a Monster, worse than Johan. He was also a bit snarky and at times assholish which is a heck of a lot more realistic than the generic personality they pasted onto him in the anime. This also gave him room for character and relationship growth, which you know is generally regarded as a good thing.

I can only assume the change was made to make him appeal more to multiple audiences

So robbing him of any personality and replacing it with a generic harem lead which everyone is sick to death of... as well as removing any chance for character growth is meant to give him... more appeal? Let's hope Sunrise fired whatever genius who came up with that. Man they should've done the same with Luke for Tales of the Abyss... would've sold twice as much without assholish Luke.