Toradora! - Character Discussion - Kawashima Ami

[Led_Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

Spoiler:

I had this thought about the Kitamura arc. Perhaps Kitamura isn't the central figure in this story arc, Ami should be the one. If you read forward, you might notice Kitamura doesn't have a real legitimate reason for his behavior. Instead he's just simply emoing and childishly refusing the post of Council Prez.

The one who has the most to gain emotionally would be Ami, since she really does challenge herself on her maturity throughout Ep 14 & 15. All throughout the episodes, she has received conflicting opinions as to how mature she is, and trying to correctly apply it to her own life (For instance, trying to be mature when facing the Kitamura dilemma although not very sure of her maturity to handle it). She really just seems to be the one who could learn the most from this situation, instead of just acting out like Kitamura. As they say, effective medicine is always bitter.

Well i think that the one who wanna "scream" and "act emo" is Ami...

In the chapt 15 she says someting like "People how thing someone is bound to help them if they shout out loud are very lucky"...

For what i see, she wanna do the same thing, but she can`t do it, she just wanna the rest see her misery by just some small things, but the rest don`t get realise of this...

I think that ami is showing that she is not that mature at all, that she still dont know how to show herself to others, and ami know this, but can`t change it...

[typhonsentra]

Since the other thread's discussion was getting out of hand I guess this is a better place to discuss it. What were her reasons? Does she actually have a solid reason for being so needy or is it just some abstract self-loathing/lonelieness?

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

Since the other thread's discussion was getting out of hand I guess this is a better place to discuss it. What were her reasons? Does she actually have a solid reason for being so needy or is it just some abstract self-loathing/lonelieness?

It was a multitude of reasons:

Spoiler:

* She never opened up to anyone previously, thus she had no real friends. The "friends" she had at her previous school didn't even bother to contact her when she transfered due to the stalker. That was when she began to realise her fake face was actually preventing her to make any real friends, and thus her reason for wanting to stay at the current school because she finally made some friends that actually seem to care about her and accept her non-pefect true personality.
* Her "maturity", as people put it, made her realised very early than Taiga/Ryuji/Minori/Kitamura were a trainwreck in the making, thus made her think that she would do something for her real friends for a change because she is the "mature" one, however she being not fully matured either (as the anime Ryuji had noticed) and this being her first time actually caring about someone other than herself, her methods were not that successful and she began hating herself for failing, and in some cases, she thought she made things worse than before. We know that Ami is not that emotionally strong and that she wants people to think the best of her (hence the original reason she put on the perfect face so people will love her and accept her), thus the thought of herself making things go wrong and people hating her for it puts a lot of strain on her emotionally.
* The final nail was when she thought that she made Minorin reject Ryuji, and at the same time saw Taiga dead set on sarcaficing her own feelings (at that point Taiga's feelings towards Ryuji were realised, Kitamura was also totally not interested in Taiga romantically and he and Taiga became good friends which even made them shared some secrets) to pair up Minorin/Ryuji. She blamed herself and her own existance in the group for wrecking havoc to their relationship because she was never one of the "originals". She was the outsider that disturbed the balance.

Part of her worries stems from the fact that she saw what the problem was and knows it so clearly and even knows what has to be done (to make them realise their true feelings), but no matter what she tries it ends up going wrong or even made things worse (in her mind), which builds up massive frustration in her, and this frustration which no one seem to notice because they all think she is so mature and beyond them in handling relationships with everything in control. This is the cause of her problems, she had no one to share her worries. Thus her immense envy for the type of relationship that Ryuji and Taiga shares, their mutual support even without the romantic feeling is probably what made her jealous and takes an interest in Ryuji, a sort of "what if he would unconditionally take care of me like he does for Taiga" which is one of the primary reasons for some (me included) to say that Ami's interest in Ryuji is not entirely romantic (there's no physical attraction here, and she knew so early that Ryuji had no real interest in her either) but rather seeking emotional comfort.

The other part is the dilemma that she is caught in - she greatly appreciates the group that now accepts her, but otoh she considers even her very existance in the group is causing them to break apart which she tries to fix but cannot. So on one hand she desperately wants to stay with them, but on the other she can't bare the thought that just by being with them is causing them to break apart. Again this adds more frustration to her. This is the other reason why it also doesn't make sense for Ami to want to romantically involve herself with Ryuji or even try to "steal" him away from either Minorin or Taiga because her intentions was to keep the group together and make them truly happy so she can continue to be with them and have a place where she truly belongs, rather than destroying it and leave everyone in a mess.

[typhonsentra]

Spoiler:

So what's her ultimate goal in correcting the "Messed up" situation? Setting up Taiga and Ryuuji? And as for her friends, she considers Minori a close friend? Doesn't Minori see her the same way the other classmates do?

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

Spoiler:

So what's her ultimate goal in correcting the "Messed up" situation? Setting up Taiga and Ryuuji? And as for her friends, she considers Minori a close friend? Doesn't Minori see her the same way the other classmates do?

Spoiler:

The ultimate goal was just to get people to realise their true feelings and be honest with it and let it run its course as soon as possible, because if anything she's the first to know that lying and not being true to one's own feeling is painful. She saw that the relationship between Ryuji/Taiga/Minorin wasn't going to last forever because she felt the underlying potential for developing feelings between Ryuji/Taiga and thought that neither of them really considered it in a serious way, and the more time passes the bonding just deepens, which by the time they do realise it it would only be more painful because then they would have to choose between friendship and lovers and that would destroy the group (and she was right, both Minorin and Taiga thought that had to choose). She wasn't intending to set up anyone in particular, she was at least mature enough to know that setting people up instead of letting real feelings decide wasn't the way to go. You can see this in how she always tries to get Ryuji to think about his feelings and ask him to treat the girls the same (don't pretend that he has to take care of Taiga out of some misguided sense of duty). There's also a bit of fantasy in there in that she hopes that Ryuji might see her in a different light and take a genuie interest in her, but she also knows better than to dwell too much into it. Her words are always intended to get people to face and consider their true feelings by the way of pointing out the facts as she saw it with her acute observations, you can see she even tried it with Sumire because she knew that Sumire not being confronting with Kitamura was the problem of Kitamura's worries.

As for Minorin, I think Ami greatly admires the fact that Minorin is always so honest to herself and cares little about what others think of her (contrary to what a lot of people are hoping for, Minorin doesn't put up the genkiness because she is compensating for some trauma, that IS her true self), which is something that Ami herself can't be. Also both Minorin and Taiga were the first girls to treat Ami with indifference because both Taiga and Minorin saw through Ami's mask, and that probably made the greatest impact on her compared with all the other classmates. That and the fact that Ami saw Minorin as a member of the original "group" (the magic is when all the members are there and intact, not just any one of them) meant altogether she hold a somewhat special regard towards Minorin. Which is probably all the more reason why she can't stand the fact that Minorin wasn't being honest with her feelings in the upcoming arcs.

[typhonsentra]

Spoiler:

I see.... this entire mask thing is confusing though. She's convinced she's a bad person and is trying to change herself? Do the people outside their group find out about her bad side? I always felt like if Nanako and Maya saw it they'd accept her given how long they've known her for.

[wistfulloner]

Originally Posted by Led_Zeppelin

Well i think that the one who wanna "scream" and "act emo" is Ami...

In the chapt 15 she says someting like "People how thing someone is bound to help them if they shout out loud are very lucky"...

For what i see, she wanna do the same thing, but she can`t do it, she just wanna the rest see her misery by just some small things, but the rest don`t get realise of this...

I think that ami is showing that she is not that mature at all, that she still dont know how to show herself to others, and ami know this, but can`t change it...

As I said, its not about being emo or "screaming", its more about who has the opportunity to learn more from this whole dilemma. Sure, she seems like another kid who's trying to look mature, but she could potentially solve her own maturity question faster than anyone else could resolve their own problems.

[yezhanquan]

Well, on mature issues, Kawashima does have quite a number of jigsaw pieces in place for her puzzle. But, I believe that apart from sharing her pieces with the rest of the gang, she would probably pick up a few pieces from Minori and Ryuji. I think she keeps an open mind, at least after her own immediate issues were settled earlier in the series (stalker-san).

[frubam]

At the end of ep 16, originally, Ami told those two girls to just give the ID to Ryuuji, but when they blurted out in front of Minorin that Taiga loved Kitamura, she quickly snatched it up. She definitely doesn't want Minorin to go after Ryuuji, esp since she knows Ryuuji likes Minorin. Unlike Sumire, who decided to move ahead w/o Kitamura, Ami decided to stay because she likes Ryuuji, which(imo) shows the level of determination she has. She def doesn't want to end up like Taiga, loving a guy that loves another girl more and, in turn, that girl loving him back. In other words, she doesn't want to be the "Taiga" in the Taiga/Kitamura/Sumire relationship. Minorin, who sees that Taiga liked Kitamura all this time, can now open up the possibility that she and Ryuuji can be an item. Now that Ami knows Minorin knows, it really puts her[Ami] in a bad mood. I'm sure at that moment, she felt that everything she's done to get close and to understand Ryuuji will go to waste. I don't remember her clenching her teeth like that since the stalker incident.

[Fran~]

Ami is the "realistic one" of the bunch, she would be real Happy if Ryuuji decides to leave the bunch and be just with her only. But, as the books said, you love things that you can have, it's circular:

Taiga loves Kitamura, Kitamura loves Sumire
Ami loves Ryuuji, Ryuujis loves Minori...

PLUS

Taiga is REAL close to Ryuuji and Minori now is also close to Ryuuji also... so Ami sees a lot of competence for Ryuuji, who even doesnt notice that Ami falled for him.

Ami loves Ryuuji because of that, is something hard to get even for her, if Ryuuji would be like Noto, Ami would not taking a look on him.

[germanturkey]

hmm, i see more Ami fell for Ryuuji because he was one of the first people to treat her as a normal person rather than be starstruck by her. It makes me sad that she'll be a footnote by the end of the series. she's by far the most interesting character in the show.

[typhonsentra]

What about Kitamura?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

What about Kitamura?

They were friends since they were kids. I don't think she's ever considered him as a romantic option at all.

Most people who grow up together like that consider themselves siblings, regardless of what most anime will tell you.

[yezhanquan]

Siblings and lovers are two very different types of love, and most do not think that they want to convert from one to the other.

[germanturkey]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

What about Kitamura?

yeah, i assumed that since they grew up together, there was no romantic interest between them.

[Fran~]

Just read how Kitamura describes Amin to Ryuuji at the Family Restaurant. Yes they're friends, but Kitamura wants a change in her personality, he asked to Taiga for "change her".

[typhonsentra]

I think you misunderstood, he tells Ryuuji he's fine with her personality. It's just that he doesn't like her hiding what she really thinks.

[Master Assassin]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

I think you misunderstood, he tells Ryuuji he's fine with her personality. It's just that he doesn't like her hiding what she really thinks.

So basically Yuusaku didn't mind about Ami's personality, just that he hoped that she'd be more honest.

I wonder what is Ryuuji's actual opinion of Ami. Even after 75% (just my estimation) of the season's running episodes I still can't make it clear what Ryuuji thinks about Ami and I suspect that is the main reason which is stumping Ami's attempts to actually make any further progress than just being friends.

[germanturkey]

Ryuuji sees her the same as he sees everyone else, at face value. he doesn't particularly glorify anyone in the anime, nor does he think ill of anyone either. so to him, Ami is just a girl who happens to be famous and attends the same school as him. I believe this is the reason why everyone speculates that Ami has feelings for Ryuuji, because he can see passed the lights and glamour.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

I think you misunderstood, he tells Ryuuji he's fine with her personality. It's just that he doesn't like her hiding what she really thinks.

That's a change to me .

Originally Posted by Soul Assassin

I wonder what is Ryuuji's actual opinion of Ami. Even after 75% (just my estimation) of the season's running episodes I still can't make it clear what Ryuuji thinks about Ami and I suspect that is the main reason which is stumping Ami's attempts to actually make any further progress than just being friends.

To me Ryuuji thinks that Amin is really beautifull but with a dishonest attitude, he thinks that she is happy teasing him (and everyone) and i really can't see that Ryuuji could think something more than friendship. With Taiga you can expect something more, Ryuuji is always caring Taiga and thinking in her.

Originally Posted by germanturkey

Ryuuji sees her the same as he sees everyone else, at face value. he doesn't particularly glorify anyone in the anime, nor does he think ill of anyone either. so to him, Ami is just a girl who happens to be famous and attends the same school as him. I believe this is the reason why everyone speculates that Ami has feelings for Ryuuji, because he can see passed the lights and glamour.

Ami is the classical girl who is in love of the guy who doesn't pay attention in her. Same way Harima Kenji attracted Sawachika Eri. If Ryuuji woul pay any attention, she probably will use him like a toy, but Ryuuji didn't act that way, and THAT is what Ami saw in him, and she can't stand that he pays more attention in Taiga that in her.