Attack on Titan The Finale Season (Episode 60 onwards) - Anime Episode Discussion

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by EroKing

Eren's gone so bad at the end that you kinda wanna cheer for Reiner next week lol

Eren doesn't even come close to the atrocity Reiner's committed when he breached Wall Maria.

I get it, what's happening is horrible and this time it's Eren who pulled the trigger. But using Titans to kill people and break their stuff has been Marley's MO for 100 years. They only considered stopping because technological progress meant they couldn't get away with it anymore, and by "stopping", I mean "exterminating everyone on Paradis".

[Jan-Poo]

And before that, for way more than a mere 100 years, it was the Eldians that used titans to kill people and break their stuff, it is them that started it all. So if you apply the same logic that you are applying for Marley as a whole now, claiming that they don't deserve sympathy, including civilians, including the Eldians of Liberio that are pretty much hostages and brainwashed, then you should have never sympathized for the people of Paradis either.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

And before that, for way more than a mere 100 years, it was the Eldians that used titans to kill people and break their stuff, it is them that started it all. So if you apply the same logic that you are applying for Marley as a whole now, claiming that they don't deserve sympathy, including civilians, including the Eldians of Liberio that are pretty much hostages and brainwashed, then you should have never sympathized for the people of Paradis either.

1. When they were attacked by Marley, the Eldians were brainwashed into being peaceful. The Liberio Eldians are brainwashed into supporting Marley's conquests.
2. I'm not saying anyone is deserving or undeserving of sympathy. Especially the civilians or children who never had a say in any of this. I'm saying I'm not buying into the narrative that Reiner and his family are the poor victims of a gratuitously evil Eren.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

This season focuses a lot on the little kids, and it tries to make the viewer sympathize with the kids.

And the anime also spent 60 episodes focusing on Eren as it tries to make you feel that his action is justified
If those episodes never exist and the anime starts with this season, your perspective will be very different.
I mean, the Eldian Empire has done terrible things for a thousand years, but since the anime didn't start there, so who cares, right?

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

But then I remembered something. That Mikasa wannabe girl actually was a cold blooded killer at the start of the season, killing a lot of people. She herself doesn't value other people's lives, and she wants to become the armored titan so that she kill even more people on Paradis Island. With all that in mind, she doesn't deserve any sympathy and her anger is full of hypocrisy.

She risked her own life to save 800 people and you are saying that she doesn't value other people's lives?
You can't really fault her for wanting to kill the demons on the island, since that's what she has been indoctrinated since the day she was born.
And Eren has done a pretty good job convincing her that what she was taught is completely right

[thundrakkon]

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Originally Posted by TheForsaken

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The issue with your whole statement is that Paradis Island asked to be left alone. They were, for 100 years, not attacking anyone. All of a sudden, invaders came and killed their civilians. It is a false equivalent to the current part of the story, where the Marleys have from the beginning and continue to want to commit genocide against Paradis Island.

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Originally Posted by TheForsaken

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Unfortunately, that still doesn't excuse her for killing people (Marleyans are the invaders) and then wanting to commit genocide (Paradis Island). Any way you put it, it's her actions and desire to kill, and that is not excusable.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

The issue with your whole statement is that Paradis Island asked to be left alone. They were, for 100 years, not attacking anyone. All of a sudden, invaders came and killed their civilians. It is a false equivalent to the current part of the story, where the Marleys have from the beginning and continue to want to commit genocide against Paradis Island.

I believe there is a bit more going on here than this. First of all it was rebel faction that infiltrated walls. We were told that titan invasion was for capturing founding titan for glory and greed, but the decision had to be at least somewhat influenced by fear of rebels getting their hands on it. With all those future memories staff it may seemed like preventive move forced by rebels from actual decision makers perspective.
Which is not to say that it was good move - but that's, to me, the entire point: do not invade other countries even for democracy and oil and whatever other reasons you have.

[Klashikari]

The thing is that even if the public didn't know about the truth regarding King Frietz, it is kind of obvious that the "Empire of Eldia" heavily shifted policies. For a bloodthirsty empire, they sure were lax for a hundred years. Honestly, even if you were told they were demons, the complete absence of actions from them for more than a century should be enough to conclude they aren't on path of conquest anymore.
Then again, it has been a little over 100 years, so it isn't like grudge will disappear all of a sudden. But I don't believe "Eldia conquering the world" and "Marley inflitrating Paradis" have the same context when it comes to the carnage left behind.

[deadite]

So are we really gonna take sides now when that's exactly what the show is preaching against?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by deadite

So are we really gonna take sides now when that's exactly what the show is preaching against?

That's what the author is going for, but that doesn't seem to have the intended effect. People still only look at the little particulars that make Marley and Paradis cases different and ignore the mole of things that make them the same.

Which when you think about it, it's not really surprising, since it's what the characters in the story do and what humans in general have always done and still do in real life whenever somehow in every conflict the right side it's always their own side.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's what the author is going for, but that doesn't seem to have the intended effect. People still only look at the little particulars that make Marley and Paradis cases different and ignore the mole of things that make them the same.

Depending on how you define "Paradis", you could argue they've got almost nothing in common.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by deadite

So are we really gonna take sides now when that's exactly what the show is preaching against?

It's exactly shows like this that make people take sides
The argument in this thread will never happen if the show has clear good guys and bad guys.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

And before that, for way more than a mere 100 years, it was the Eldians that used titans to kill people and break their stuff, it is them that started it all. So if you apply the same logic that you are applying for Marley as a whole now, claiming that they don't deserve sympathy, including civilians, including the Eldians of Liberio that are pretty much hostages and brainwashed, then you should have never sympathized for the people of Paradis either.

But Marley won and the Eldians retreated 100 years ago. The Eldian Empire doesn't exist anymore. There's a huge difference between attacking a country that is consistently belligerent to the present day and attacking a country that used to be belligerent 100 years ago but hasn't done shit since. Disregarding that leads to a false balance fallacy.

The discussion does need a bit of separation and clarity on certain terms here though. On one level there is sympathy, on another level there is excuse and on a final level there is justification. I can sympathise with Reiner and kids and I could even sympathise with Kenny and other villains. This is more debatable but I could excuse Reiner's actions from a moral standpoint for being brainwashed and having to fight under duress (Same goes for the kids). However, I can't justify their actions on either a moral or political perspective.

Eren's actions are on another level. I'm not sure I can justify it but I can at least see it as debatable. There's no justification for Reiner, Berthold and Annie's actions whatsoever.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Haak

But Marley won and the Eldians retreated 100 years ago. The Eldian Empire doesn't exist anymore.

No, you can't really say that when for 100 years it was the same royal family that ruled those same people. The only thing that changed is the land that they occupied, and it really makes no sense to consider that a relevant factor.

What about nomadic tribes, would you say they become something else entirely every time they settle to a different place?

Did know that what people call "Taiwan" is actually called "Republic of China", that it once ruled over the whole of China, and that it never declared discontinuity from that past?

Taiwan is just the name of the island they currently are, similarly Paradis is just the name of an island, not a nation. In fact nobody in the walled country even knew that they lived in an island called Paradis for 100 years. By the way they didn't really control the whole island, so until recently they weren't an island nation at all, they were a completely landlocked nation.

Originally Posted by Haak

There's a huge difference between attacking a country that is consistently belligerent to the present day and attacking a country that used to be belligerent 100 years ago but hasn't done shit since.

It seems that everyone is missing an extremely relevant fact here. If this attack was done at any other time, in any other place of Marley it would be as you say.

But Eren chose to attack in Liberio and in front of every ambassador of the world. This was deliberated. He even waited until Willy ended his speech, he even waited until he asked them to join him in his war against Paradis.
What Eren did wasn't just an attack on Marely which could be justified to a certain extent, it was tantamount to a declaration of war against almost every country of the world, the entirety of which (with the only exception of Marley) also has never attacked the Eldians for the past 100 years.

Moreover the fact that he showed such complete disregard for the civilian lives of the Eldians of Liberio, precludes any chance of justifying his actions as a way to stop the oppression on his fellow Eldian people.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

No, you can't really say that when for 100 years it was the same royal family that ruled those same people. The only thing that changed is the land that they occupied, and it really makes no sense to consider that a relevant factor.

What about nomadic tribes, would you say they become something else entirely every time they settle to a different place?

Did know that what people call "Taiwan" is actually called "Republic of China", that it once ruled over the whole of China, and that it never declared discontinuity from that past?

Taiwan is just the name of the island they currently are, similarly Paradis is just the name of an island, not a nation. In fact nobody in the walled country even knew that they lived in an island called Paradis for 100 years. By the way they didn't really control the whole island, so until recently they weren't an island nation at all, they were a completely landlocked nation.

You could, I suppose, make the moral argument that the Paradis Eldians deserve genocide for what their ancestors did. If you're into genocide. But there's no getting around the fact that Paradis Island is a very different animal from Eldia's old all conquering empire.

It seems that everyone is missing an extremely relevant fact here. If this attack was done at any other time, in any other place of Marley it would be as you say.

But Eren chose to attack in Liberio and in front of every ambassador of the world. This was deliberated. He even waited until Willy ended his speech, he even waited until he asked them to join him in his war against Paradis.
What Eren did wasn't just an attack on Marely which could be justified to a certain extent, it was tantamount to a declaration of war against almost every country of the world, the entirety of which (with the only exception of Marley) also has never attacked the Eldians for the past 100 years.

Moreover the fact that he showed such complete disregard for the civilian lives of the Eldians of Liberio, precludes any chance of justifying his actions as a way to stop the oppression on his fellow Eldian people.

Eren didn't declare war on the world. The world declared genocidal war on Paradis. As you pointed out, Eren waited until Willy finished doing that, to the enthusiastic cheering of those ambassadors.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Eren didn't declare war on the world. The world declared genocidal war on Paradis. As you pointed out, Eren waited until Willy finished doing that, to the enthusiastic cheering of those ambassadors.

That's a just a group of people getting emotionally excited by the speech. No more, no less.
Until the leaders of those countries officially declare war, it doesn't mean anything.
Eren, on the other hand, did declare war on them by attack their ambassadors in a terror attack.

By the way, has Eren ever tried setting up diplomacy with other countries?
It has been several years, and there is not a single attempt.
If you do nothing and let Marley do everything, then it's kind of your fault.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

That's a just a group of people getting emotionally excited by the speech. No more, no less.
Until the leaders of those countries officially declare war, it doesn't mean anything.
Eren, on the other hand, did declare war on them by attack their ambassadors in a terror attack.

Pick one. You can't both dismiss them as "just a group of people" and then say they're "ambassadors" representing their countries. If they're just a group of people, then they were just unfortunate collateral damage, not a casus belli.

And BTW, even by our standards, Eren's strike probably counts as one on a legitimate military asset: the Warhammer Titan. It's not his fault they put it in the middle of so many civilians. Not that expect them to have anything like the Geneva Convention.

By the way, has Eren ever tried setting up diplomacy with other countries?
It has been several years, and there is not a single attempt.
If you do nothing and let Marley do everything, then it's kind of your fault.

Who's he to do anything of the sort?

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Pick one. You can't both dismiss them as "just a group of people" and then say they're "ambassadors" representing their countries. If they're just a group of people, then they were just unfortunate collateral damage, not a casus belli.

Yes, a group of ambassadors, so what?
Cheering for a speech is not a declaration of war.
And do ambassadors have the right of declare war on the spot?

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And BTW, even by our standards, Eren's strike probably counts as one on a legitimate military asset: the Warhammer Titan. It's not his fault they put it in the middle of so many civilians. Not that expect them to have anything like the Geneva Convention.

It doesn't matter.
The point is Eren's intention.
Eren doesn't care if he kills those ambassadors, which means peaceful solution is never in his mind.

By the way, it's less "Eren attacks the Warhammer Titan and the civilians are caught in the middle", and more "Eren attacks the civilians in order to lure the Warhammer Titan out".

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Who's he to do anything of the sort?

How about sending your own ambassadors to those countries?
You think how diplomacy in real life is set up?

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

No, you can't really say that when for 100 years it was the same royal family that ruled those same people. The only thing that changed is the land that they occupied, and it really makes no sense to consider that a relevant factor.

It isn't though: The Eldians haven't ruled Marley for 100 years. The "same" Royal family went from belligerence to pacifism for 100 years which is a pretty massive change that shouldn't be ignored, and land is actually probably one of the biggest factors to consider when calling something an Empire.

What about nomadic tribes, would you say they become something else entirely every time they settle to a different place?

No because settling in different places is literally the definition of nomadism.

Did know that what people call "Taiwan" is actually called "Republic of China", that it once ruled over the whole of China, and that it never declared discontinuity from that past?

That's right, they never declared discontuity. But unless I'm mistaken Karl Fritz did, although given that they did nothing for 100 years it should go without saying anyway.

It seems that everyone is missing an extremely relevant fact here. If this attack was done at any other time, in any other place of Marley it would be as you say.

But Eren chose to attack in Liberio and in front of every ambassador of the world. This was deliberated. He even waited until Willy ended his speech, he even waited until he asked them to join him in his war against Paradis.
What Eren did wasn't just an attack on Marely which could be justified to a certain extent, it was tantamount to a declaration of war against almost every country of the world, the entirety of which (with the only exception of Marley) also has never attacked the Eldians for the past 100 years.

Moreover the fact that he showed such complete disregard for the civilian lives of the Eldians of Liberio, precludes any chance of justifying his actions as a way to stop the oppression on his fellow Eldian people.

It's a good point that Eren did deliberately attack a place with representatives from other countries that he can't claim he can have beef with. But a group of representatives is still not on the scale of destruction that Marley wrought on Paradis Island for the last decade.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

You could, I suppose, make the moral argument that the Paradis Eldians deserve genocide for what their ancestors did. If you're into genocide. But there's no getting around the fact that Paradis Island is a very different animal from Eldia's old all conquering empire.

I never said that Eldians deserve genocide. I'm saying that Marley doesn't deserve that either. You could fight the current government and their soldiers, but if you stop considering the individual persons and only consider the nation then you can't use a double standard and only apply that logic to Marley. If you stop considering the single individuals and only consider a nation as an entity then you can't separate the current Eldians on Paradis from what they did on the past.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Eren didn't declare war on the world. The world declared genocidal war on Paradis. As you pointed out, Eren waited until Willy finished doing that, to the enthusiastic cheering of those ambassadors.

This was already countered by TheForsaken and I completely agree with that. But in addition, and this is something that I pointed out before, there's the whole fact that Willy didn't believe a speech alone could make them all agree. Otherwise he would have done it in a safe place where the army could guarantee his safety (which is what Magath suggested).

I know you are adamant in believing that the whole world agreeing on a genocide war against Paradis was already an established fact at that moment and I don't think you'll change your mind, but there's undeniable evidence of the contrary.

Originally Posted by Haak

It isn't though: The Eldians haven't ruled Marley for 100 years. The "same" Royal family went from belligerence to pacifism for 100 years which is a pretty massive change that shouldn't be ignored, and land is actually probably one of the biggest factors to consider when calling something an Empire.

You forget that this is all information that wasn't known by anyone. The official story is that a Marleyan hero and a Taybar warhammer user fought the evil empire and banished it into an island. That Empire lost all except one of the 9 titans and the only reason they stayed holed up in their island is not because they opted for pacifism, but because they feared they would lose again if they tried. There has never been a public declaration where the King renounced to his claims on his Empire.

The true story was so well hidden and forgotten that the only way Willy was able to retrieve it is by using the titan's ability to peer into the memories of his ancestors (well his sister did). At any rate when Marley ordered the attack on the walled country, nobody, not even the leaders, believed that they had become pacifists. From their point of view, they were still at war.

Originally Posted by Haak

That's right, they never declared discontuity. But unless I'm mistaken Karl Fritz did.

He never did officially. I mean what the Fritz dynasty did can only be considered suicidal. They could have told the real story, they could have declared their pacifist intent, they could have used the peace they had been in as a diplomatic tool to mend relationships. But they did nothing of the sort, because the whole plan was to eventually let the world exterminate them after a few years of "peace". In a sense that whole destruction that BRA caused was planned by the King and his descendants. When Grisha confronted Frieda and urged her to stop the carnage, he was met with refusal, she was just going to watch as her subjects were being slaughtered, and that's what prompted Grisha to kill her and all of her family.

Ironically, and that's really mindboggling, in spite of the fact the rumbling was just an empty threat, they didn't care about getting rid of all those colossal titans inside the walls.

Originally Posted by Haak

although given that they did nothing for 100 years it should go without saying anyway.

Just how many years have passed since the two Korea haven't actually pulled the triggers against each other? And yet a peace treaty was never signed, technically they are still at war.

Originally Posted by Haak

It's a good point that Eren did deliberately attack a place with representatives from other countries that he can't claim he can have beef with. But a group of representatives is still not on the scale of destruction that Marley wrought on Paradis Island for the last decade.

When you consider what Armin did, they have already surpassed the damage dealt to Shiganshina. The only reason this won't escalate to the damage BRA caused, is because there isn't a swarm of titans ready to flood the territory.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

Yes, a group of ambassadors, so what?
Cheering for a speech is not a declaration of war.
And do ambassadors have the right of declare war on the spot?


It doesn't matter.
The point is Eren's intention.
Eren doesn't care if he kills those ambassadors, which means peaceful solution is never in his mind.

Or, you know, if peace is so important to them, they could accept their ambassadors were at the wrongest place at the wrongest time. If an ambassador visits a military base of a country at war, and he dies when that base gets bombed, well, tough luck.

By the way, it's less "Eren attacks the Warhammer Titan and the civilians are caught in the middle", and more "Eren attacks the civilians in order to lure the Warhammer Titan out".

Eren isn't dumb enough to believe it would work.The Warhammer certainly didn't come to protect the Eldian civilians.

Besides, he also struck at Willy. Now, I don't know if we'd count him as a legitimate target, but we damn well should. He's the one pulling the trigger on this war.

How about sending your own ambassadors to those countries?
You think how diplomacy in real life is set up?

My point is that Eren doesn't rule Paradis. He isn't in any position to send ambassadors to anyone.

And I could turn it around. Why were those ambassadors sent there, to Marley, knowing the agenda, and not to Paradis?

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I never said that Eldians deserve genocide. I'm saying that Marley doesn't deserve that either. You could fight the current government and their soldiers, but if you stop considering the individual persons and only consider the nation then you can't use a double standard and only apply that logic to Marley. If you stop considering the single individuals and only consider a nation as an entity then you can't separate the current Eldians on Paradis from what they did on the past.

There is a vast difference between acting against a clear and present danger, and acting to punish a century old wrong.

This was already countered by TheForsaken and I completely agree with that. But in addition, and this is something that I pointed out before, there's the whole fact that Willy didn't believe a speech alone could make them all agree. Otherwise he would have done it in a safe place where the army could guarantee his safety (which is what Magath suggested).

I know you are adamant in believing that the whole world agreeing on a genocide war against Paradis was already an established fact at that moment and I don't think you'll change your mind, but there's undeniable evidence of the contrary.

He didn't believe he could successfully throw the Paradis Eldians under the bus to buy forgiveness for Marley's century of conquest without his farce. It's not the same as believing the world could make peace with Paradis.

You forget that this is all information that wasn't known by anyone. The official story is that a Marleyan hero and a Taybar warhammer user fought the evil empire and banished it into an island. That Empire lost all except one of the 9 titans and the only reason they stayed holed up in their island is not because they opted for pacifism, but because they feared they would lose again if they tried. There has never been a public declaration where the King renounced to his claims on his Empire.

The true story was so well hidden and forgotten that the only way Willy was able to retrieve it is by using the titan's ability to peer into the memories of his ancestors (well his sister did). At any rate when Marley ordered the attack on the walled country, nobody, not even the leaders, believed that they had become pacifists. From their point of view, they were still at war.




He never did officially. I mean what the Fritz dynasty did can only be considered suicidal. They could have told the real story, they could have declared their pacifist intent, they could have used the peace they had been in as a diplomatic tool to mend relationships. But they did nothing of the sort, because the whole plan was to eventually let the world exterminate them after a few years of "peace". In a sense that whole destruction that BRA caused was planned by the King and his descendants. When Grisha confronted Frieda and urged her to stop the carnage, he was met with refusal, she was just going to watch as her subjects were being slaughtered, and that's what prompted Grisha to kill her and all of her family.

Ironically, and that's really mindboggling, in spite of the fact the rumbling was just an empty threat, they didn't care about getting rid of all those colossal titans inside the walls.




Just how many years have passed since the two Korea haven't actually pulled the triggers against each other? And yet a peace treaty was never signed, technically they are still at war.





When you consider what Armin did, they have already surpassed the damage dealt to Shiganshina. The only reason this won't escalate to the damage BRA caused, is because there isn't a swarm of titans ready to flood the territory.

That's a pretty big fucking difference.