Attack on Titan The Finale Season (Episode 60 onwards) - Anime Episode Discussion

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

He didn't believe he could successfully throw the Paradis Eldians under the bus to buy forgiveness for Marley's century of conquest without his farce. It's not the same as believing the world could make peace with Paradis.

That's a completely warped interpretation that can't be logically inferred by any of his words or acts. He willingly sacrificed himself for the sake of humanity, not for the prosperity of a single nation.
Now that was also a completely dumb thing to do, but that's another matter.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's a completely warped interpretation that can't be logically inferred by any of his words or acts. He willingly sacrificed himself for the sake of humanity, not for the prosperity of a single nation.
Now that was also a completely dumb thing to do, but that's another matter.

If humanity was his primary concern, all he had to do was wait for technology to make titans irrelevant.

A century ago, the head of the Tybur family threw the Eldians under the bus so his family could live in comfort and glory. This is just more of the same. What really worried him was the fact that titans weren't the advantage they once were. He needed a common enemy to buy peace for Marley while the going was still good.

[deadite]

So is Eren; Paul or Leto II?

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Or, you know, if peace is so important to them, they could accept their ambassadors were at the wrongest place at the wrongest time. If an ambassador visits a military base of a country at war, and he dies when that base gets bombed, well, tough luck.

Again, the point is Eren's intention.
If all he wants is to kill Willy and take the War Hammer, he could attack them at other place and other time.
No, the whole point of this attack is to make a show out of it. He knows he are murdering other countries' ambassadors and he doesn't care.

Use the excuse of Eren doing nothing wrong all you want, but it's entirely possible to be an asshole who pisses off everyone while technically doing nothing wrong. And this is one of such cases.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

My point is that Eren doesn't rule Paradis. He isn't in any position to send ambassadors to anyone.

Fine, not Eren then. But how about the people who rules Paradis?
Why don't they send diplomats to other countries?
Also, please don't tell me that Eren is just a pawn who follows order. He clearly has influence over the decision making inside Paradis.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And I could turn it around. Why were those ambassadors sent there, to Marley, knowing the agenda, and not to Paradis

Because they already have diplomatic relation with Marley, and none with Paradis?
Sorry, but Paradis is the one who must reach out for them first, not the other way around.

[Router25]

The Paradis stigma is strong.

[Psyco Diver]

I guess I'm the only one just enjoying the action and characters and not trying to find deeper meaning in every little scene......

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

Again, the point is Eren's intention.
If all he wants is to kill Willy and take the War Hammer, he could attack them at other place and other time.

No. That was the only time and place where he could be reasonably certain they'd be there and he could reach them.

No, the whole point of this attack is to make a show out of it. He knows he are murdering other countries' ambassadors and he doesn't care.

Why should he care?

Use the excuse of Eren doing nothing wrong all you want, but it's entirely possible to be an asshole who pisses off everyone while technically doing nothing wrong. And this is one of such cases.


Fine, not Eren then. But how about the people who rules Paradis?
Why don't they send diplomats to other countries?
Also, please don't tell me that Eren is just a pawn who follows order. He clearly has influence over the decision making inside Paradis.

Well, we'll get into that next ep, I guess. Though we've already been given a clue.

Because they already have diplomatic relation with Marley, and none with Paradis?
Sorry, but Paradis is the one who must reach out for them first, not the other way around.

Why? Why should it be Paradis who reaches out?

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

Fine, not Eren then. But how about the people who rules Paradis?
Why don't they send diplomats to other countries?
Also, please don't tell me that Eren is just a pawn who follows order. He clearly has influence over the decision making inside Paradis.


Because they already have diplomatic relation with Marley, and none with Paradis?
Sorry, but Paradis is the one who must reach out for them first, not the other way around.

During their conversation in the carriage, Willy and Magath stated they know there is at least one nation helping Paradis. We know NOTHING about what the people of Paradis have been up to those past four years, who says they haven't been trying to peacefully approach other countries?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

If humanity was his primary concern, all he had to do was wait for technology to make titans irrelevant.

No, he knows about Eren. He knows that his intent is to use his power to initiate the rumbling, he said that much in his speech. That's the only reason he exposed himself that much. The Tybur family has never involved itself in the expansion plans of Marley. For instance there's absolutely no evidence that they had anything to do with the previous attempt to get the founding titan.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

A century ago, the head of the Tybur family threw the Eldians under the bus so his family could live in comfort and glory. This is just more of the same. What really worried him was the fact that titans weren't the advantage they once were. He needed a common enemy to buy peace for Marley while the going was still good.

First off, the Tybur family never did such a thing. Karl Fritz himself ordered the Tybur family to pose as liberators in order to give credibility to the whole story. He left by his own will. Secondly you are confusing the Marleyan's objective with the Tybur family's objective. The first are only concerned with Marley's sovereignty, but the Tybur have a mission that was left to them by Karl Fritz. They share the same self-hatred for the Eldians as King Fritz did. This is why stopping Eren is such an important objective for them. Willy wouldn't have gone to such length just to obtain the founder power.

Originally Posted by Kanon

During their conversation in the carriage, Willy and Magath stated they know there is at least one nation helping Paradis. We know NOTHING about what the people of Paradis have been up to those past four years, who says they haven't been trying to peacefully approach other countries?

There's also the fact that the Paradis force is using technology that is far beyond what they possessed when we left them. You can see the utter surprise of the Marleyans when they saw that airship. It was absolutely unthinkable for them that Paradis would have such thing.

Also we have never seen a black guy in the walled country before.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

No, he knows about Eren. He knows that his intent is to use his power to initiate the rumbling, he said that much in his speech.

Well, he would say that, wouldn't he?

That's the only reason he exposed himself that much. The Tybur family has never involved itself in the expansion plans of Marley. For instance there's absolutely no evidence that they had anything to do with the previous attempt to get the founding titan.

And again, he would say that, wouldn't he? Despite being outed as the real power behind Marley.

First off, the Tybur family never did such a thing. Karl Fritz himself ordered the Tybur family to pose as liberators in order to give credibility to the whole story.

I didn't say he did it alone. But he chose to obey Fritz, and the end result was exactly as I described.

He left by his own will. Secondly you are confusing the Marleyan's objective with the Tybur family's objective. The first are only concerned with Marley's sovereignty, but the Tybur have a mission that was left to them by Karl Fritz. They share the same self-hatred for the Eldians as King Fritz did. This is why stopping Eren is such an important objective for them. Willy wouldn't have gone to such length just to obtain the founder power.

If he had so little power, why did Magath finger him as the real power? How was he able to make the promises he did?

The emphasis on his family leads me to believe his motives weren't so selfless. He wanted to protect his family, and their happy, comfortable lives.

Just like Reiner did when he breached Wall Maria. Maybe that's what Isayama's trying to say. It doesn't take a great innate evil to perpetrate the worst atrocities. Just something to lose and the wrong circumstances.



Maybe I'm too cynical, but I just can't bring myself to trust a guy who says "You just found out that my family's been ruling from the shadows for a century, maintaining a lie that's seen my own people live as subhuman canon fodder or in ghettos, but all that shit that's been happening for 100 years and those more recent blunders? Totally not our fault. It was... somebody else."

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You forget that this is all information that wasn't known by anyone. The official story is that a Marleyan hero and a Taybar warhammer user fought the evil empire and banished it into an island. That Empire lost all except one of the 9 titans and the only reason they stayed holed up in their island is not because they opted for pacifism, but because they feared they would lose again if they tried. There has never been a public declaration where the King renounced to his claims on his Empire.

The true story was so well hidden and forgotten that the only way Willy was able to retrieve it is by using the titan's ability to peer into the memories of his ancestors (well his sister did). At any rate when Marley ordered the attack on the walled country, nobody, not even the leaders, believed that they had become pacifists. From their point of view, they were still at war.

He never did officially. I mean what the Fritz dynasty did can only be considered suicidal. They could have told the real story, they could have declared their pacifist intent, they could have used the peace they had been in as a diplomatic tool to mend relationships. But they did nothing of the sort, because the whole plan was to eventually let the world exterminate them after a few years of "peace". In a sense that whole destruction that BRA caused was planned by the King and his descendants. When Grisha confronted Frieda and urged her to stop the carnage, he was met with refusal, she was just going to watch as her subjects were being slaughtered, and that's what prompted Grisha to kill her and all of her family.

Ironically, and that's really mindboggling, in spite of the fact the rumbling was just an empty threat, they didn't care about getting rid of all those colossal titans inside the walls.

There is a lot of the story that hasn't been explained so I don't know whether you're going off content I'm not aware of or whether this is interpretation based on what we know but as far as I'm aware what we know regarding how King Fritz declared surrender is not much. I could accept that the Marylan "official" account could be all Karl Fritz's fault but I'm not inclined to think so. I don't remember what scene this is from but I do remember a scene revealing that Karl Fritz had warned the Marleyans not to come after his people or else there would be consequences: You probably know what I'm talking about because you refer to the "the rumbling" being "an empty threat". So yeah, there was in fact a warning made which must have also meant that there must have been Marleyans to hear it (or else why make it?). And if they heard it, that means they must have been the ones to hide it from their official narrative. It's also true that the royal family were bluffing and were just plain suicidal but it's not mutually exclusive and that doesn't absolve the Marleyans of anything whatsoever.

Just how many years have passed since the two Korea haven't actually pulled the triggers against each other? And yet a peace treaty was never signed, technically they are still at war.

About four months? There's been numerous incidents between the two. This can't compare to an entire country going AFK for 100 hundred years.

When you consider what Armin did, they have already surpassed the damage dealt to Shiganshina. The only reason this won't escalate to the damage BRA caused, is because there isn't a swarm of titans ready to flood the territory.

I don't know what you're saying here. The way I'm reading it you're saying it's already surpassed what the BRA trio caused but at the same time won't escalate to what the BRA trio caused.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

So, I just binged the recent three episodes and.....dayum!

Originally Posted by Haak

However you do make a point that Isayama could actually just be portraying a fatalistic view of humanity in general and that humanity cannot help but devolve into evil regardless of whether they are hawks or doves. In that sense, Isayama isn't portraying necessary evil but rather inevitable evil. I (mostly) like that idea actually, and I'll keep that in mind. I do wish it didn't have to go "both-sides"ism with allegorical Nazis to do that, but I'm pretty much used to seeing that shit with Gundam so whatever. But putting all that aside for a bit...

Speaking of which, for me, the Armin's Colossal's nuclear explosion scene kinda cemented the blatant comparable nature between the Liberio attack by the Paradis people and the Hiroshima-Nagasaki attack (and the many bombings on Japan's soil before that) done by the Americans.

I guess whether you're on Eren's side, Marley's side or neutral can be reflected on how you view Americans killing all those Japanese civilians during those bombings. Was it a "necessary evil" according to each of you?

Originally Posted by Haak

Episode 66

Daaaaaaaaayum. Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayum.

That was just an amazing episode. So much thrilling action and development. Zeke went down in a surprisingly anticlimactic manner but everything else was epic as hell. Armin's play and the takedown on Pieck were great but the standout moment for me was definitely Eren brutally using the Jaw Titan as a tool to break and eat Warhammer. But it was kinda bullshit that he stopped before eating the Jaw Titan...

Agreed. Eren really didn't need to stop his bite on that Jaw's nape. When the action is this intense and fast-moving for the last couple of episodes, such anime-cliche of "stopping action for dramatic effect" kinda broke my immersion more than obvious CGI .

[EroKing]

Farewell and R.I.P. Sasha

[Guido]

A roller coaster of emotions that delivered last week's episode.

Indeed, there are neither heroes nor villains in war; it's just us and them.

Paradis returned to Marley the carnage, death, and destruction dealt on them 9 years ago, but Eren made sure this time escalating the stakes through humilliating and stealing even more from Marley: the War Hammer Titan, the slaughter of the military brass and the Tyburs.

However, for every action a reaction will subsequently follow, because just as I grieved and cried for the slaughter of Shinganshina, Paradis 8 years ago back then to season one, now I did the same for Liberio, Marley today in season four.
It was both unbearable and excruciating watching the citizens getting crossed in the fire, as well as tearing to both Falco and Gabi screaming their lungs out for Reiner to stand-up and save Porco.

I applaud MAPPA for remaining faithful to the manga for most of the time, as well as Horiyuki-sensei for his wise choice at music to perform each of Marleys' themes. Once Zeke got nailed by Levi, then everything went downhill for Marley like a house of cards.

Lastly, praise to Isayama-sensei for requesting the staff some minor changes here and there, since it is known that Isayama views the anime out of his manga as the finished, released product.

[Haak]

Well I guess I can't say this show is being overly hawkish now. They really drove it home this episode.

And here I was thinking Zeke had some ace up his sleeve considering how he went down but this was not what I expected. They should just call this Attack on Titan: Daaaaaayum Season.

[VTHokiePride]

They killed my best girl

We'll miss you. R.I.P Sasha

I hope Levi, Hange, and Mikasa survive all of this.

[Kanon]

I could have brought it up when the episode aired since I brought it up in the manga thread when the manga chapter came out but I thought I'd let anime only figure it out on their own.

Eren's mitt and ball he told Falco he got from a relative? That was the big clue he was working with Zeke.

[Wandering Soul]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Eren's mitt and ball he told Falco he got from a relative? That was the big clue he was working with Zeke.

There were quite a few other hints. Zeke claiming Eren wasn't his enemy and then calling out to Levi saying he was running out of time, which had Levi check his watch. Zeke crushing the rocks as much as he did is another hint as he realized during the fight back on Paradis that it makes the rocks less likely to kill anyone.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I didn't say he did it alone. But he chose to obey Fritz, and the end result was exactly as I described.

Have you lost the point we are discussing here? If they obeyed Fritz it means they are going with his plan, the plan being letting the Eldian on Paradis live for a while in peace until the world autonomously decides to attack them and exterminate them.

You on the other hand are claiming that the Tybur do not care about the plan and only care about their own prosperity.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The emphasis on his family leads me to believe his motives weren't so selfless. He wanted to protect his family, and their happy, comfortable lives.

Well, he's going to be really comfortable in hell. And having someone eat a family member and die the same way 13 years later must have been totally fun for them.
And no it didn't have to be one of them to carry the titan power, they could have given it to another "warrior".

They are not acting on self interest, they are acting to fulfill a mission. Being the occult leaders in the shadow is just a necessary part of that. And I'm not saying it's a good mission, it's a fucked up mission bordering insanity. But my point is not to claim that the Tyburs are good guys, the point is that Marley is just a tool for them, not their priority.

Originally Posted by Haak

There is a lot of the story that hasn't been explained so I don't know whether you're going off content I'm not aware of or whether this is interpretation based on what we know but as far as I'm aware what we know regarding how King Fritz declared surrender is not much. I could accept that the Marylan "official" account could be all Karl Fritz's fault but I'm not inclined to think so. I don't remember what scene this is from but I do remember a scene revealing that Karl Fritz had warned the Marleyans not to come after his people or else there would be consequences: You probably know what I'm talking about because you refer to the "the rumbling" being "an empty threat". So yeah, there was in fact a warning made which must have also meant that there must have been Marleyans to hear it (or else why make it?). And if they heard it, that means they must have been the ones to hide it from their official narrative.

Peace is not obtained by sending threats. At best threats can be used as diplomatic tools. But if you don't use them in actual diplomatic attempts, you'll just go straight back to war the moment the threat will lose its efficacy, and the threat itself will work as a casus belli.

Originally Posted by Haak

It's also true that the royal family were bluffing and were just plain suicidal but it's not mutually exclusive and that doesn't absolve the Marleyans of anything whatsoever.

When did I say that Marleyans are justified for what they did? The point is that you can't use their wrongs as a justification to do equal wrongs on them. That's the very logic that if sound would justify Marleyans (as they too were wronged in the past) and I'm not justifying them anymore than the recent Eldian attack on Marley.

Originally Posted by Haak

I don't know what you're saying here. The way I'm reading it you're saying it's already surpassed what the BRA trio caused but at the same time won't escalate to what the BRA trio caused.

I said that they surpassed the damage that the trio caused in Shiganshina (Eren's city), but not the damage that the mindless titans caused on the rest of the Eldian country.


At any rate the recent episode finally made clear that the recent attack was orchestrated by Eren and Zeke and that the Paradis government has nothing to do with that decision. Their hand was forced and they had to attack in order to avoid losing the founding titan power, but they would have never done that otherwise.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Have you lost the point we are discussing here? If they obeyed Fritz it means they are going with his plan, the plan being letting the Eldian on Paradis live for a while in peace until the world autonomously decides to attack them and exterminate them.

You on the other hand are claiming that the Tybur do not care about the plan and only care about their own prosperity.

And have you noticed that the Tyburs aren't treated like the other Eldians? They're neither the Devils of Paradis, nor do they live in a ghetto. I'm betting no one would dare feed them to the dogs, either.

Well, he's going to be really comfortable in hell.

You can care about your own children, even be willing to die for them, and not give a good goddamn about anybody else.

And having someone eat a family member and die the same way 13 years later must have been totally fun for them.
And no it didn't have to be one of them to carry the titan power, they could have given it to another "warrior".

I'm not so sure about that. The Warhammer is part of their legend, as well as the fact they keep secret who has it.

They are not acting on self interest, they are acting to fulfill a mission. Being the occult leaders in the shadow is just a necessary part of that. And I'm not saying it's a good mission, it's a fucked up mission bordering insanity. But my point is not to claim that the Tyburs are good guys, the point is that Marley is just a tool for them, not their priority.

I have no doubt they'd be willing to throw Marley under the bus, too, to save themselves.