Fate/Zero - Episode 25 Discussion [END] / Poll

[Awrya]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

That's not what Fate/Zero spoils.

Spoiler for Fate/Zero spoils this about F/SN:

- Ilya is Kiritsugu's daughter
- The Grail is corrupt
- Sakura and Rin are sisters
- What Sakura is going through under the Matou's
- Kirei doesn't have a heart
- Kirei's true nature
- Kirei killed Rin's father
- Gilgamesh, a servant of the previous war is still alive
- Saber's identity
- Assassin is always suppose to be the same

And probably more things I can't remember right now.

Spoiler for Spoilers:

How Avalon ended up in Shirou
How Saber retains her memories of the 4th Holy Grail war
Saber's wish

And probably some more

[Flawfinder]

I just said Saber's identity is about as secret as Vader's identity, as I knew it before I tried watching the first anime. As for everything else, I guess, but considering I'm not a Fate fan, and this series failed to change that, I could care less.

[Touko]

Originally Posted by Soverence

Just finished watching it as well, quite a interesting episode to say the least. The scene with Sakura and Kariya was sad but that was kind of how it had to end, even thought I still find it tragic.

I don't really understand why Kirei came back to life, because his servant was the last remaining? I thought like half way through they were saying the last servant had to kill themselves to finish the ceremony, what ever happened to that? Or did I misunderstand that conversation from way back when?

There is this "path" (leyline) between Master and Servant. And there was such a line between Gilgamesh and Kotomine.

After being splashed by the mud, Gilgamesh gained a power infusion, and became incarnated. The power of the Grail flowed into Gilgamesh and through the "path", into Kotomine as well. This power was basically what sustaining Kotomine for 10 years.

In other words, Kotomine was alive all thanks to Gilgamesh.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Touko

There is this "path" (leyline) between Master and Servant. And there was such a line between Gilgamesh and Kotomine.

After being splashed by the mud, Gilgamesh gained a power infusion, and became incarnated. The power of the Grail flowed into Gilgamesh and through the "path", into Kotomine as well. This power was basically what sustaining Kotomine for 10 years.

In other words, Kotomine was alive all thanks to Gilgamesh.

But Kotomine was splashed by the mud himself (and before Gilgamesh), so was their "path" between Master and Servant really necessary? I figured that was just Gil taking credit for it because of his ego.

[Aqua Knight]

Spoiler for :

Assassin is always suppose to be the same

Why is that?

[Nausky]

Originally Posted by Awrya

Spoiler for Spoilers:

How Avalon ended up in Shirou
How Saber retains her memories of the 4th Holy Grail war
Saber's wish

And probably some more

Certainly true, but FSN spoils just as much about Fate/Zero. It works both ways, so if you're new and just want to watch a good anime, Fate/Zero is the better choice. The visual novel is good, but I honestly don't know anyone besides myself that enjoys them. =\

[mAc Chaos]

Originally Posted by Nausky

Certainly true, but FSN spoils just as much about Fate/Zero. It works both ways, so if you're new and just want to watch a good anime, Fate/Zero is the better choice. The visual novel is good, but I honestly don't know anyone besides myself that enjoys them. =\

......But FSN is the original. It doesn't "spoil" the prequel because you're supposed to watch it first. Oh well, people will watch what they want to.

Originally Posted by Aqua Knight

Why is that?

In Fate, the word "Assassin" itself is linked back to the original Asassin, so the class itself has such a strong association with the Servant that they always get summoned.

It would be like if there was a class named Gilgamesh.

[Grey]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

It would be like if there was a class named Gilgamesh.

If only the Einzberns had tried that during the third war.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Aqua Knight

Why is that?

Spoiler for Assassin class:

The Assassin class has been build in such a way assassin will always be Hassan i Sabbah.

"The system of the Fuyuki Grail War required originally that the Servants of the Assassin class must be one of the nineteen individuals known as Hassan i Sabbah -- the pseudonym shared by the leaders of the Hashshashin, a medieval Islamic sect. The name of the sect is the etymological root of the word "assassin," and the class name itself thus acts as the catalyst to summon the members of the organization."

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Assassin

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Grey

If only the Einzberns had tried that during the third war.

the Einzeberns are not good enough to alter the system. Zelretch was the one who created the Grail War system for the 3 families. the Einzeberns attempt to cheat allow the summoning of Angra Mainyu which corrupted the Grail.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

In Fate, the word "Assassin" itself is linked back to the original Asassin, so the class itself has such a strong association with the Servant that they always get summoned.

It's not just in Fate. That's the real origin of the word. Fate just takes it a step further and basically says they're the only "true" assassins.

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

you guys need to learn stop feeding the trolls.

I was bored okay?

[Shiryuu]

This ending makes FSN's ending look retarded. Her supposed ultimate attack didn't even hurt Gilgamesh.

[Ragna92]

Originally Posted by Shiryuu

This ending makes FSN's ending look retarded. Her supposed ultimate attack didn't even hurt Gilgamesh.

It didn't hit him though.

Spoiler for FSN:

In the Fate route of FSN she used excalibur at point blank range

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Shiryuu

Her supposed ultimate attack didn't even hurt Gilgamesh.

Probably because it didn't even hit him. Or do you think he just sat there and waited for Saber to fire it at him even though he had ample time to dodge?

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

......But FSN is the original. It doesn't "spoil" the prequel because you're supposed to watch it first. Oh well, people will watch what they want to.

Amen to that.

It wasn't called a prequel for nothing. Things would make more sense if you watch from FSN to FZ.

Anyway, a great end to an epic anime. I must confess that the presence of Waver irritates me so much >_>

[Triple_R]

To chime in on the "suggested order of viewing" discussion, I think it's much better to watch Fate/Stay Night first, and then Fate/Zero (unless you've already played the Fate/Stay Night VN, in which case, you can safely skip the F/SN anime and go straight to Fate/Zero).

Fate/Zero spoils Fate/Stay Night more than the other way around, imo. What I mean here is that the Fate/Zero events that Fate/Stay Night spoils you on are fairly predictable anyway - Kiritsugu and Kirei were clearly set up as slightly more important than the other masters from the very first episode of Fate/Zero. Likewise, Saber is presented in a way that points to her being the most important servant (or at least the "main protagonist" of the servants). The Holy Grail War of Fate/Zero eventually coming down to Kiritsugu/Saber vs. Kirei/Gilgamesh is rather predictable anyway, even if you hadn't seen Fate/Stay Night.

In fact, Fate/Zero unfolds in a way with few (if any) real surprises/plot twists (Kirei turning on Tokiomi is foreshadowed heavily, making it hardly a surprise when it finally happens - again, even if you hadn't seen Fate/Stay Night first). I honestly think that Fate/Zero might seem too predictable to many people who are watching it without foreknowledge of many of its key plot points (having that foreknowledge likely means you won't care as much about how predictable it is).

Fate/Stay Night, OTOH, holds an awful lot back for plot twists in later episodes, and I think watching Fate/Zero first really spoils them.


Now, I get that Fate/Zero is widely held (and rightly so, imo) as the superior of the two shows. So that alone will tempt people to watch it first if they haven't already watched Fate/Stay Night. But if somebody finds Fate/Stay Night at least a decent watch, I'd strongly encourage them to watch that first.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

To chime in on the "suggested order of viewing" discussion, I think it's much better to watch Fate/Stay Night first, and then Fate/Zero (unless you've already played the Fate/Stay Night VN, in which case, you can safely skip the F/SN anime and go straight to Fate/Zero).

Fate/Zero spoils Fate/Stay Night more than the other way around, imo. What I mean here is that the Fate/Zero events that Fate/Stay Night spoils you on are fairly predictable anyway - Kiritsugu and Kirei were clearly set up as slightly more important than the other masters from the very first episode of Fate/Zero. Likewise, Saber is presented in a way that points to her being the most important servant (or at least the "main protagonist" of the servants). The Holy Grail War of Fate/Zero eventually coming down to Kiritsugu/Saber vs. Kirei/Gilgamesh is rather predictable anyway, even if you hadn't seen Fate/Stay Night.

In fact, Fate/Zero unfolds in a way with few (if any) real surprises/plot twists (Kirei turning on Tokiomi is foreshadowed heavily, making it hardly a surprise when it finally happens - again, even if you hadn't seen Fate/Stay Night first). I honestly think that Fate/Zero might seem too predictable to many people who are watching it without foreknowledge of many of its key plot points (having that foreknowledge likely means you won't care as much about how predictable it is).

Fate/Stay Night, OTOH, holds an awful lot back for late-season plot twists, and I think watching Fate/Zero first really spoils them.

Indeed. Fate/Zero's plot happenings were never really written as genuine "twists" because the readers were already expected to know about them beforehand. They never relied on surprises or shock factor to keep the story interesting. Rather than wondering what would happen it was usually all about how it would happen.

Also, there is nothing in Fate/Stay Night where lacking knowledge of Fate/Zero will make it hard to follow or to emotionally resonate with. Whereas in Zero, especially in the anime, there were a bunch of things that inevitably missed the mark with newcomers, precisely because the audience was already expected to have that background information from F/SN. Things like Angra Mainyu which was suddenly introduced without any real explanation in the last few episodes, or even Kirei's character in general, whose inner workings and motivations I believe to have gone over a lot of newcomers' heads, since the audience was expected to already know them from F/SN and thus the thrill in watching him was again how he exactly he'd become the man we see in F/SN. There were also plenty of scenes that purposefully "rhymed" with F/SN ones and where part of the visceral impact was knowing what they'll lead to in F/SN and the possible irony behind them, etc.

So yeah, it's pretty clear to me that the intended viewing order is F/SN > F/Z, rather than a chronological one. That's just how prequels (tend to) work.

[Doria]

I wouldn't really think of it as FZ spoiling FSN (though I suppose to an extent this is true--though most of what it really spoils you find out almost right away or not at all in terms of the anime), so much as--and this is purely my opinion--I think that FZ is intended to be watched after FSN.

It doesn't matter to me particularly if one doesn't follow that viewing order, but there is some stuff that gains emotional weight if you watch it in the order it's intended. Obviously, this is a double-edged sword, as for some people, it ruins the impact because they know what is going to happen.

For example, the final confrontation between FZ Rider and Archer. Knowing that Archer/Gil must survive into FSN makes their battle both less tense (if all you care about if the outcome) or more tense if you know the outcome but still care about the characters.

The nature of prequels is such that there will always be this tension, and often the only real way to determine the success is in how well one feels the prequel executed on this. Some prequels don't really add much and just in effect "spoil" the main series. Others use the viewer/player's knowledge to good effect--one example might be (for other game nerds like myself) Final Fantasy VII: Crisis Core, which uses the events you know to be canon to real emotional effect at the end. On the other hand, you get something like Episode I-III of Star Wars which, yes you can argue this point all day, for many people added little and detracted from their original enjoyment of the chronological first three movies.

But as others point out, there's no "right" answer. It depends how effective you think the prequel executed both its mandate and its art. I think FZ adds quite a bit to the characters, and I think that in a lot of ways, FSN redeems some of the more painful aspects of FZ. Others, though, may freely and wholly disagree.

[Touko]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

But Kotomine was splashed by the mud himself (and before Gilgamesh), so was their "path" between Master and Servant really necessary? I figured that was just Gil taking credit for it because of his ego.

Of course it does.

The result of being splashed by Grail Mud without any kind of protection/barrier is death.

Without the leyline and the Grail power jump from Gilgamesh, he would have stayed dead.

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Spoiler for Assassin class:

The Assassin class has been build in such a way assassin will always be The Hundred-Faced Hassan.

"The system of the Fuyuki Grail War required originally that the Servants of the Assassin class must be one of the nineteen individuals known as Hassan i Sabbah -- the pseudonym shared by the leaders of the Hashshashin, a medieval Islamic sect. The name of the sect is the etymological root of the word "assassin," and the class name itself thus acts as the catalyst to summon the members of the organization."

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Assassin

Incorrect.

Spoiler:

The Assassin Class will always be one of the Nineteen Original Old Man of the Mountain. The Hundred Faced Hassan is merely ONE of the nineteen. The True Assassin in Fate/Stay Night is another.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

the Einzeberns are not good enough to alter the system. Zelretch was the one who created the Grail War system for the 3 families. the Einzeberns attempt to cheat allow the summoning of Angra Mainyu which corrupted the Grail.

Incorrect.
Zelretch did not do anything. He was just a witness there.

The majority of the Ritual was Einzbern magecraft. House Tohsaka provided the spiritual land (Fuyuki), which supply the massive amount of magical power needed to summon the Servants. House Matou provided the Command Spell system to bind the Servants.