Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Altima of the Gates]

Well, and don't take this the wrong way, but each route is really just a different set of happenings rather than another story, its a staple of the VN medium to retrace the story from multiple angles. Fate/zero does it another way, with the multiple protagonists showing multiple viewpoints at once, but even then, there must be sacrifices for time.

Anyway, there are plenty of hints on things hiding under the surface, so smart and observant readers should be able to pick up various things. Sakura takes somewhat of a backseat on Fate and UBW, but at the same time, there are various hints about her and her personality that go beyond just being the girl next door, its why I liked her in the first place. Like her relationship with Rin and the foreshadowings of it are shown, her relationship with Shirou and Taiga, and honestly, if you thought she was a regular girl, you were kind of delusional, there were hints and things everywhere.

For example:

Spoiler:

Rin says in both Fate and UBW that the Matou family's magic has died out by Shinji's generation, and it was oh so obvious with the awkward and sometimes harsh exchanges between Rin and Sakura that there was something there between them. Also, she was still mentioned if not on camera as one of the victims of the Bloodfort, so it's not like we never find out anything about her when she goes off camera.

I dunno, I just find that people don't pay enough attention to the subtle things put into this story. It is supposed to be enjoyed slowly and digested like a novel, because that is what it is. And there is a lot to digest.

@Thryfe

Spoiler:

Zouken is not dead after Fate or UBW. Nasu already set up a conflict to take place 10 years later to dismantle the grail, instigated by Rin and Waver against the Clock Tower, who want to use it themselves. The conflict is said to be as great as one of the Grail wars, but the result would be the system being dismantled forever. So either the system is shut down now in HF, or shut down ten years later in the other routes.

Zouken is likely to be part of that, since his original plans were to lie in wait and use Sakura's offspring for his plans(she being the prototype, that ended up exceeding expectations in HF, which was why he moved then). He has decades more to live.

[Sansker]

I like more the style of Fate/Zero then. I just don’t see those hints because they are so small that I only notice them because I know who Sakura is. Fate/Stay Night is tedious at times, so is easy you lost something between the small talks of breakfast, classes, oranges and how a person walks. Even at is more exciting moments it gets tedious to read, so maybe I didn’t notice some things but even there only makes sense because I saw the anime.

Sakura might be a character others like but she is actually boring to me. Most of the hints I blame on bad writing or just as unimportant details. Rin has a large role in Fate, so makes sense she has a more prominent role in UBW. Sakura? She is the little sister of the biggest douchebag this world has even seen, has a crush for Shirou and has a voice so soft even Fluttershy will be able to talk more aggressive than her. So not what I call protagonist material, and I am talking about the impression she made on me which is weak one.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Well one of the things I never like about Fate Stay/Night is the idea of having these routes from the start. I know sounds odd, and I really enjoy the Fate route and so far the UBW seems good enough (Still need to complete HF but I know how it ends). My problem with them is just that each route must exploit elements from the setting but at the price of not mentioning others. In Fate Caster is kill rather brutally and quick, Assassin vanishes without even appearing a second time and we focus more on Shirou and Saber. In UBW is the other way around and we focus on Rin and Archer. And is fine but my point will be sounds like if they come up with so many things that in the end they didn’t bother to use all the elements.

Each story focuses more on some of the setting and gives it development while ignoring or not even mention other elements. As we saw with Sakura in Fate, she might as well just fall down a hole because we lost her in a few moments and when we see the things in HF is not surprise one wonder how could we ignore this the first time? Is kind of odd and while a “What If” scenario might explain it still raises questions and can be criticize. I guess the idea of one of this routes being the “true” story of Fate/Stay Night is kind of personal preference. One can say anything about the anime adaptation but at least the try to balance some of the elements better and give each one a chance to explain and show their stories instead of just having characters die and never bother to tell us what was their deal. And yes, I know some things were missing but still.

So, about Sakura in the other routes… well kind of speaks by itself that in those she isn’t important. If each story can be the “right” one then in any other route that isn’t HF Sakura’s role isn’t as important and in Fate can be describe as anecdotic. So pick what you like. I don’t hate Sakura but, to be honest, after what I see in Fate and UBW I really don’t care about her either. Maybe HF will change my mind.

I don't think you can isolate the routes from each other and frame them as standalone stories. It would be better to see Fate/Stay Night as a whole as the story.

All the routes have hints and scenes which give context and explain things from the other routes. Trying to see how everything fits together is part of the experience.

You should look at every scene as a "what if" scenario. If you look at a route on it itself it doesn't make much sense, because you get left behind with too many unanswered questions.

This is how many visual novels work.

[Altima of the Gates]

I just think he might not be a visual novel person, his feelings on Sakura aside, he ignored all my points on interconnectivity between routes and made the same asanine assertion of Fate just being tedious, when there was pertinent information everywhere. It is a novel, not an anime, so visual novels are probably not for him.

[Sansker]

Well that could be the case here. I like novels and I like anime, but visual novels seems to be in a different realm somewhere in between. Because the visuals are still images with sounds and the novel parts are walls of text with repetitive obnoxious writing that tries to make every single thing sound epic and at times is just silly. So really it is a case that at times the series overdo a bit on the narrative. Sacrificing efficiency and quality over quantity. Again, just a personal impression on the subject. I did like the stories enough to finish them; I just think they are not as good or not as appealing to me as the anime adaptation. Both on the technical and the narrative departments.

So on that note when is about interconnectivity between the different routes, I find it hard to take. Balance all the elements and present them in different lights is one thing, using some elements here and there is another. For example: in Fate Caster dies in a horrible way like 5 minutes before appearing, we might as well eliminate the entire character without saying a word and aside from introducing Gilgamesh in a less impressive matter the story suffers little to no change. Zouken doesn’t even see to exist in Fate, and everything goes right. The fact this elements are present in all the routes just makes me wonder why the characters just decide to sit on down and do nothing while the other character are actually acting.

So is more my feeling that you could answer all the questions in one route and still use other versions to tell different stories. Not just spread all elements in three unbalance parts that together make a whole of: three incomplete connected stories. It might work for some, but to me just doesn’t click right.

And all of that is not to say that visual novels sucks or that Fate/Stay Night sucks. In the end I agree this stories does have something going for them. From the characters, the interesting concept the epic battles and a very particular setting of magic. Combine with a refine and good looking elements of most of the characters and you get something pretty to look at with some good writing on it. However is far from perfect and I never could ignore those things I mention, but if I didn’t like something I won’t even bother with this. So maybe is just me not getting the style, but I think it could be far better than it is.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Sansker

The fact this elements are present in all the routes just makes me wonder why the characters just decide to sit on down and do nothing while the other character are actually acting.

Sorry, but if you're not sure why so many prime players in other arcs aren't active in other arcs, then I don't think you were paying very close attention.

For example, it was clearly stated in UBW that Caster's biggest fear was Berserker. It's why she was building a Servant army. She can do this because Ilya is scared by Archer, who managed to shave off one of Berserker's lives when she thought him invincible. In Fate, she could not do this because Archer was inactive, so Berserker was more active. As soon as he was disposed of, she showed up to try and claim Saber and was gunned down by Gilgamesh.

So is more my feeling that you could answer all the questions in one route and still use other versions to tell different stories. Not just spread all elements in three unbalance parts that together make a whole of: three incomplete connected stories. It might work for some, but to me just doesn’t click right.

The routes are already pretty long. Each one answers its own core questions. They don't need to answer unasked questions that are answered in the natural course of the story in other routes.

[Sansker]

Maybe you are right. I am just saying that, to me, doesn’t quite work. Because it ends making some characters look like they wasted my time with their small appearances that ended being irrelevant to the story. Because what explain them is relevant in another story, so why bother to have them here now? I am questioning the execution.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Maybe you are right. I am just saying that, to me, doesn’t quite work. Because it ends making some characters look like they wasted my time with their small appearances that ended being irrelevant to the story. Because what explain them is relevant in another story, so why bother to have them here now? I am questioning the execution.

It is better to see those moments as foreshadowing for the other routes.

They also give a clearer image of what would happen if things would have gone differently. In a normal linear story you often have to guess how a character would have acted if thing would have gone differently in a visual novel you are being showen (or tolled).

[Thryfe]

Ya I found out that I had parts wrong and what Kotomine says in Japanese would still translate to him saying "The old Makiri has already retired". I just figured that since Kotomine used the word impossible in the sentence before hand that it would be a euphemism for death.

I just thought it odd how the dang guy spent 500 years trying to get the grail and weather he could use Sakura or not just sits by and lets it get destroyed in Fate. Or the possibility of Kotomine getting it. The only scenario I could think of was since Kotomine decided Zouken was a threat that needed to be killed back in Zero, he would get rid of the guy with the baptism rite or with Gilamesh and Lancer. Just to keep him from interfering in the 5th war. I hadn't considered the dismantling, wasn't the Greater Grail wiped out in Fate though?

[GDB]

You'd need to know a scene from the Fate/Zero novels or drama CDs (not shown in the anime) to understand why Zouken does nothing. Basically, he knows it's corrupt as hell, so he doesn't really care if he gets it or not, as long as no one else gets it. He's seen 4 wars go by with no winner, so why would he think this one would be any different? He has time, so he's willing to bide it until he has the perfect trump card.

And only the lesser Grail was destroyed in Fate and UBW.

[Thryfe]

ah, I've only completed the visual novel so I haven't looked into Fate/zero in depth. Though I know what generally happened.
So all in all it seems Zouken sticks around until the dismantling is decided and he probably steps in to stop that. Nasu mentions that Sakura doesn't become the black grail in any route, so where would she fit in the Dismantling scenario lol?

I just remembered, the very last time we hear of him is in HF after Sakura pulls him out and crushes his main body. He is on the brink of disappearing and the only thing that's keeping him around is his desire for the thing he tried to obtain all his life is a right in front of him. Right before seeing Illya reminds him of justeaze. The grail was at its most corrupt at that point and based off that scene he clearly wanted it right?

[GDB]

He does want it, I just meant he doesn't care if he gets it now or not. He's willing to wait until his plans come to fruition. At that point, his plans were ruined and he was on the brink of death. He didn't really have any future beyond trying to get the grail right then and there.

[Thryfe]

Ah right, I gotcha now.

[Sansker]

But that makes me wonder. If Zouken wanted the Grail so bad why he doesn’t do anything in Fate or UBW if he is alive? That is one of my problems with the routes. They are different and yet we are told all the elements in each route are present in all the routes so why some characters decide to do nothing in some routes while in others they decide to act is, at least to me, odd.

One can try to explain this, I mean some of the different actions do hold effects that can result in characters not acting but at the same time doesn’t explain why. If I like Fate/Zero more is just because there is always something happening. The Masters and Servants are fighting a war, creating strategies, plotting against the others or even between them. In Fate/Stay Night I see the characters just wasting time. And I know that we could try to explain this but, at the same time, I think is a little boring and I don’t quite like it. Just saying that more proactive characters could help this routes a bit.

[Altima of the Gates]

Zouken didn't do anything because he couldn't find any way to control Sakura. In HF, he finds a great weakness for her and exploits it, and that is what causes the accidental contract to be established with AM. Otherwise, it doesn't happen and he waits until the next war, because she refuses to fight. He was going to sit out the Fourth war too, but Kariya provided him entertainment.

The reasoning may seem strange at first because you aren't seeing the full picture, and you need to see FSN as a full picture, even if the puzzle pieces aren't always easy to spot. People talk about their feelings on magic and their connection with it during the slice of life stuff, which, if you constantly skip over or don't pay attention, you miss a lot. I would hope you don't need explosions every two seconds to catch your attention. Moreover, the slice of life stuff isn't even that long, and usually has plot relevant info, or interesting character facts.

Zero was different because the war only lasted a week tops, and all the protagonists just decided to fight for whatever reason, and had more information. There were more mature magi (although few of them can be said to be emotionally mature, haha), who knew their place in the entire conflict. FSN shows the children of those people, who weren't prepared for the war (the war, if you watched the Einzbern Consultation Room specials for Zero, takes place every 60 years, and the Fifth war came early). Zouken was more than fine to not push things because his projects weren't to the level ue wanted. His original plan was to use Sakura's children to get the grail, she was a prototype.

Better yet, finish HF and then mull over what you've seen from the present routes, you might find a lot of threads you dismissed earlier for whatever reason.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Zero was different because the war only lasted a week tops

Little over a week. End of ep2 the countdown says 172 hours left (and some odd minutes), which is about 7 days and 4 hours, not counting the stuff that happened in episode 2 itself that would be counted as part of the war. Just saying.

[Sansker]

And that feels more exciting. Fate/Stay Night knows how to be really good when it wants, I am not saying otherwise, is just that it also takes its sweet time with scenes that, to be fair, really add nothing. Just saying, at times it can get doll. I read those parts but some are unnecessary long and drag my attention away from the great conflict that is taking place. You don’t keep the excitement and feeling of this epic war between mages with ancient beings as Servants when you have stuff like: what is for dinner? Is better a Japanese breakfast or an American breakfast? Or, I think the way that guy walks is really cool. I can live without those things.

[Lhklan]

You're not suppose to feel excitement and feeling of this epic war all the time. Those slice of life scenes a bigger picture, showing us how the characters lives in their daily life.
Beside, didn't you used to complain in the Nanoha thread about how we don't see anything?

[Sansker]

Even so doesn’t mean you need to bore people just so we can get the unimportant things like: Saber likes Shirou’s food more than British cooking (Yeah, British food taste bad, never hear that one before) or Fujimura is bad cooking and Saber is like a little kid hitting Shirou because of it. When you give me to choose between boring shenanigans or the plot about a war with magic, ancient beings and legends… I think I prefer the latter.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Even so doesn’t mean you need to bore people just so we can get the unimportant things like: Saber likes Shirou’s food more than British cooking (Yeah, British food taste bad, never hear that one before) or Fujimura is bad cooking and Saber is like a little kid hitting Shirou because of it. When you give me to choose between boring shenanigans or the plot about a war with magic, ancient beings and legends… I think I prefer the latter.

You're simply misunderstanding the visual novel genre. Unlike anime for example, VN handle a lot more comtent continuously.You can't possibly have fighting all the time, so they have other stuff. Plus a lot of those scenes have character development and subtle foreshadowing, so they play a significant role.

BTW, Saber wasn't complaining about British food per say, just that the food 1500 years ago didn't taste good.