[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[musouka]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

There cannot be any kind of those creatures in a detective novel.

When was Umineko ever defined as a detective novel?

[jTiKey]

Originally Posted by musouka

When was Umineko ever defined as a detective novel?

Since like episode 1 till 6?
Since there is Dlanor and Willard?
Since there is detective authority?
Since there is murder mystery?
Since the protagonist must solve the puzzle, who killed his family?
Since Erika?
Since Beatrice loved mystery novels?
Since Battler loved mystery novels?
Sine like from the very beggining the whole plot is to find the culprit.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Since like episode 1 till 6?
Since there is Dlanor and Willard?
Since there is detective authority?
Since there is murder mystery?
Since the protagonist must solve the puzzle, who killed his family?
Since Erika?
Since Beatrice loved mystery novels?
Since Battler loved mystery novels?
Sine like from the very beggining the whole plot is to find the culprit.

Show me where Ryukishi said it's a detective novel.

All those things just tell me it's partially about detective novels, not that it is one and follows the rules of one. You can't accept one person pretending to be two people, but you accept Erika as a valid detective? You accept Dlanor and Will, who are meta personifications of narrative rules?

[AuraTwilight]

Shkannon is implied in the story, but it is a lie.
Ryu liked the idea of kanon and shannon having one body. So he made a big story about it.

So you ARE engaging in special pleading. Your arguments are not even worth addressing because you're distorting logic in a fallacious manner where you can never be indicated to be wrong, even with red. Have a nice day, stick a fork in it.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

What about the forgeries? And Beatrice'ss entry in Maria's diary.
Is it implied anywhere that Rosa likes Mysteries?

Not to mention a lot of the fantasy scenes completely lose context if Rosa is the culprit; Like Eva killing Rosa (3), Beatrice threatening Rosa (2), Rosa and Marias escape (2) and Shannons confrontation with Beatrice (where Beatrice kills Shannon), to name a few.

These provide absolutely no context if Rosa is the culprit. Are they just for show?

[GreyZone]

I agree with AT, we should have stopped taking the bait a lot earlier, instead even more people joined the "show". Anyway... I am out of this.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Shkannon is implied in the story, but it is a lie.

This is beyond idiotic, but so are all Rosatrice theories this far into the story. That particular scene in the manga wasn't being "observed" by anyone but us, the readers. You'd have to claim that Battler was purposely misleading us instead of anyone inside the game.

Its daft! Why would we care for a story that would be so blatant in its trickery? Why would we believe anything thats portrayed in the story if this was the case? This is exactly the scenario that Beatrice envisioned in EP2 when all trust breaks down.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

We have the names Shannon, Kanon and Jessica told in red. But we don't have any red about them having any other names, so that can just be a lie.

I think you've got the wrong idea about the games. While the red text is useful (albeit that it can be used in misleading ways) the rest of the text is also vital. If things are as you say and the only things we count as "real" in Umineko or its gameboards are the things said in red text, we're limited entirely to the following: http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth

That makes for a really, really short game, and an absurd one. Nobody can solve Umineko using only the red text.

Talking specifically about the names, we're told right from the start that Shannon and Kanon are just their work names. We're told early on that Shannon's real given name (presumably her legal given name) is Sayo. Furthermore, Shannon and Kanon aren't names that make sense to have been given as a full name to children in an orphanage in Japan.

If we take what you're saying as true, then neither Kanon nor Shannon has a surname. Other people whose surnames are never given in red include: Rosa, Maria, Hideyoshi, George, and Rudolf. People whose given names we never see in red include: Nanjo, Kumasawa, and Genji. There's no red saying that those people have those names...only the white text. Is it a lie?

Originally Posted by jTiKey

If there is red truth about a statement, everything otherwise is a lie, even if it is implied with white text afterwise.

(The red can be used to mislead. However, that's irrelevant to the issue at hand here...)

While what you're saying there is broadly true, it does not apply to the issue of the characters having names that aren't stated in red. There is no contradiction between the red text and Shannon being a pseudonym and her legal given name being Sayo. Equally, there is no contradiction between the red text and Rudolf's surname being Ushiromiya. If you want to argue that it is, you must also argue that the various people listed above are not Ushiromiyas and that the servants' given names were lies, and so forth.

We have red text saying that people can only use their own names, but no red text saying that the only names people can possess are those used in the red text.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Dine and Knox are also common knowledge, that every person that reads detective novels should know. Also, Beatrice did talk about them herself, and there is a notice about them at the beggining of the 2 EP opening.
If you try to solve a detective mystery without Knox and Dine, it's like trying to solve math without knowing numbers.

Hey, wait a second here. You're totally wrong about that. In several ways.

In Umineko itself, there is never any confirmation that the story complies with Knox and Dine. In fact, it actually says "No Dine. No Knox. No fair." That is absolutely something that should put you on notice that Knox and/or Dine might not apply to this story.

Secondly, you are putting far too much emphasis on the value of those rules. They were written as a response to the non-fair-play things that people often wrote in their mysteries, and it's not as if people all suddenly mended their ways after the rules were written. And Knox's rules at least were written with a satirical bent. In fact, Knox's rules were even published in Essays in Satire (1928). There are even mysteries which deliberately go out of their way to break every single on of the Knox rules. It's extremely foolish to assume that every mystery in existence is fair play and that Knox and Dine will apply.

Thirdly, the version of the rules of Knox and Dine used in Umineko are not entirely the same as the real ones.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I agree with AT, we should have stopped taking the bait a lot earlier, instead even more people joined the "show".

Hahaha, I just finished typing up a post here, joining in...but of course I acknowledge that you're right about this issue. It's just really, really difficult to not argue in an Umineko forum.

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

I really want to see all these mysterious shkannon proofs.

No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!EP4
This applies to all games!!!EP4
Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.EP5

The last line from EP5 in context is referring to the total number of people. Since the total number of people on the island cannot exceed 17 and Erika increases the total by one it is a safe assumption to say the number of people on the island before Erika arrived was 16 or less.

My Blue Truth: This can all be solved if Shannon and Kanon are the same person.

Now solve this without Shkanon.

[Daniel E.]

A friendly reminder folks.

This forum is not a chat-room and you do not need to doublepost on every page just to give everyone an answer. I have already merged dozen of posts on the last pages alone and I must ask that you use the edit button whenever your comment is the last one in the thread.

Another thing to avoid is to try and moderate the thread yourselves. If you see someone doing something he shouldn't, then please report them, but don't make drama in the thread along the way. In such cases, both the person reporting and the reported could receive an infraction.

[jTiKey]

Show me where Ryukishi said it's a detective novel.

Show me where he says it isn't.

And if itsn't not mystery, WTH are you here agruing about? If it's drama or fantasy, then every opinion is good, and you complaning about mine just makes you a short-tempered person that can't live with somebody on the same forum with a different opinion.

You can't accept one person pretending to be two people, but you accept Erika as a valid detective?

I proclaim that Furudo Erika is the detective.

What about the forgeries? And Beatrice'ss entry in Maria's diary.

In Rosatrice, it is implied, that Yasu is Rosa's creator. It's here story in a metaphoric telling. So, Rosa is the dressed Beatrice, that Battle saw in game 2 and 4. Rosa did write the stories.

This is beyond idiotic,

Hello sir. Nice to meet you and your excelent behaviors, your kindness and smartness.

That makes for a really, really short game, and an absurd one. Nobody can solve Umineko using only the red text.

I'll tell this again:
White text is false ONLY if there is a red truth that says otherwise the red does, that means it is a lie.
Every magic scene is actually a lie, and get be used as an argument, only if it has red truth attached (like the sakutaro revival scene).

So, did you got it, what i mean with "your white text means nothing"?
Game 7 and 8 have no human-detective. There is no objective point. It's only magic.

The red can be used to mislead.

The red truth is absolute!! A perfect truth, which no one can overturn no matter how hard they try!!

but no red text saying that the only names people can possess are those used in the red text.

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED...!!

Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.EP5

Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now.
She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.
Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.

My Blue Truth: This can all be solved if Shannon and Kanon are the same person.

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

Now solve this without Shkanon.

Say hello to Rosa as Beatrice, George as her accompice, and Dr. Nanjo, who was bribed to do and say what the both will say.

There is no error with the red truth in every game.

After Georges dead in red, no more homicide kills are made by Beatrice.
Rosa dies after the epitaph is solved every time.
Dr. Nanji lies about peoples death.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Show me where he says it isn't.
dead![/COLOR]

Haha you go trough all of umineko and dont understand the burden of proof. You are the one claiming this is a mystery, now dont use a devil's proof to try to get by.

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

Still stuck on what "people" mean in this story? Hint, its not what you think it is.

The red truth is absolute!! A perfect truth, which no one can overturn no matter how hard they try!!

The truth can be used to mislead, specially when its there to make things more complicated than they are. The perfect answer to how the red truth is used in the story is seen in EP8, with Maria's riddle. Her "hint" (what the red truths are supposed to be) overburden people with useless facts that have nothing to do with the actual answer.

vvvv
Erika pretty much solved all of this already in EP8s manga. Unless its shown that Rosa can use a name trick like its being hinted it wont be her. EVERYTHING points to it being Shkanon, you just have to deal with it. Dont like it? Then you have an issue with Umineko in general not living up to your standards.

e- This arguments have been done to death before. Can we have an honest roll call of all previous "Rosatrice" supporters please?

[jTiKey]

Still stuck on what "people" mean in this story?

Stuck on the human's name, who killed Nanjo. Nobody could give me one, even thought there are 17 of them.

btw, there is no difference between "people" and "human" in japanese.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

btw, there is no difference between "people" and "human" in japanese.

And there you are mistaken.
人間：human being; human; man
人: person; human; character; counter for people, performers, professions, etc.

Counter for people:
人, 方, 名, etc.

And concerning the human name:
A boy is born John but his parents have to give him up for adoption, his adoptive parents then decide to name him Richard.
What is this human's name?

[jTiKey]

Originally Posted by haguruma

And there you are mistaken.
人間：human being; human; man
人: person; human; character; counter for people, performers, professions, etc.

Counter for people:
人, 方, 名, etc.

Do you have the red truth in japanese?

Originally Posted by haguruma

And concerning the human name:
A boy is born John but his parents have to give him up for adoption, his adoptive parents then decide to name him Richard.
What is this human's name?

Richard.
You know why? Cuz, there is connection.

Shkannon is like:

A boy is born John.
A boy's adoptive parents decide to name him Richard.

No connection between them.

Anyway, Shkannon cannot solve EP3 in a human way. A anime viewer would never accept your explanation. There also are no clues about Kanon and Shannon sharing a body in EP 1-4. Also, there is no human explanation about such a desease, where a human can kill it's personalities when he wishes too, and we don't even have an explanation about such an illness. It's not a detective solution, where you can use only common things that are in the real world or something given by the author.

What about the motive, that is fairy "innocent and pure"? Yasu seems just like an angry mass murderer, yet the red truth says otherwise.

Also, how did Shannon kill Kanon is a practical way? If the detective would be watching, what would she do? Close her eyes and yell "Die Kanon"? It isn't physicly possible, but yet you still believe it as an explanation of a detective mystery?

And what do you count when it's down to the 17 people? Bodies? Then please say who's body killed nanjo. Personalities? Then there must be like 25 of them.

I have nothing agains shkanontrice, until it's not a "theory", cuz it dies in game 3 mercelessly, aswell like in game 5 (only the peoples in the cousins room don't have alibies). It doesn't matter does Rosatrice solve all puzzles (yet it does), Shkannon is the answer to the mystery side of umineko the same way Natshuhi is. It's a truth implied by the author, yet it isn't the truth, and we have all red truth for that before our noses.

Shkanon is dead in game 3. And it will be for all eternity.

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now.
She does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them.
Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.

Yep she has no influence on the games until now and does not exist in the world before them. But that matters? She still increases the total number of people by 1 and there can't be more than 17 on the island. Since Erika has no influence that means Games 1-4 must have 16 or less people.

Try again.

[jTiKey]

Originally Posted by Valkama

Yep she has no influence on the games until now and does not exist in the world before them. But that matters? She still increases the total number of people by 1 and there can't be more than 17 on the island. Since Erika has no influence that means Games 1-4 must have 16 or less people.

Try again.

She is the 18th person, in the imaginary Bern\Lambda game:

I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!

Try again.
Any other red truth?

[Cao Ni Ma]

You have really selective memory here. What red truths come out directly after that and what effects do they have on Erika?

There's also plenty of clues about what was happening with Shkanon in ep 1-4. A lot of us came to the conclusion during episode 1-4 we just found it incredibly silly. But covering your eyes and ears after so much evidence points to it has come out in ep 5-8 and the supplementary stories like Our Confessions is folly.

[jTiKey]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

You have really selective memory here. What red truths come out directly after that and what effects do they have on Erika?

The red truth is absolute!! A perfect truth, which no one can overturn no matter how hard they try!!

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

There's also plenty of clues about what was happening with Shkanon in ep 1-4. A lot of us came to the conclusion during episode 1-4 we just found it incredibly silly. But covering your eyes and ears after so much evidence points to it has come out in ep 5-8 and the supplementary stories like Our Confessions is folly.

There are many, althrough you didn't name any XDDDDDD
I never said Shkanon wasn't implied. It is. Like the Battler's parent's theory. But it is dead in a closed room murder.

Our confession's ending cleary says there is one more story that wasn't told. And it is for 1 in 1000.

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

She is the 18th person, in the imaginary Bern\Lambda game:

I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!

Try again.
Any other red truth?

No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!
This applies to all games!!!
The red truth is absolute!! A perfect truth, which no one can overturn no matter how hard they try!!

18th person is simply a title given to Erika as it is assumed that there were 17 people on the island beforehand and she then becomes the 18th assumed person on the island.