(L) The Surprise of Haruhi Suzumiya (Novels 10/11) Spoiler Discussion

[typhonsentra]

I'm inclined to believe that Koizumi is ultimately the least trustworthy person surrounding Kyon, remember we know that all of class 9 is a lie after Disappearance.

[Ithekro]

We are still going to call Haruhi "god".

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

I'm inclined to believe that Koizumi is ultimately the least trustworthy person surrounding Kyon, remember we know that all of class 9 is a lie after Disappearance.

?

What do you mean? In order to alter the world, Yuki had to make the expensive all-girls school into a co-ed school. The effect is that a large chunk of the students got transplanted with Haruhi. How has that got anything to do with Koizumi trustworthiness?

[TheHaruhiIncarnate]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

?

What do you mean? In order to alter the world, Yuki had to make the expensive all-girls school into a co-ed school. The effect is that a large chunk of the students got transplanted with Haruhi. How has that got anything to do with Koizumi trustworthiness?

I think what she's trying to say is that since Yuki removed the people who werent supposed to be there, its infurred that Class 9 are all part of The Organization. But I think its just a coincidence. Mikuru would have been removed too if Yuki's goal was to remove anything that wasnt supposed to be there.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by TheHaruhiIncarnate

I think what she's trying to say is that since Yuki removed the people who werent supposed to be there, its infurred that Class 9 are all part of The Organization. But I think its just a coincidence. Mikuru would have been removed too if Yuki's goal was to remove anything that wasnt supposed to be there.

It is a simple fact that Itsuki is the only Esper student in school. He was transferred in mid-term and Haruhi nabbed him immediately. There was no mass-entry of a whole class of students after Itsuki arrived or we would have heard about it, so there is no possibility that there are any more of him in school.

I find the line of thought strange anyway; HARUHI was suppose to be in the school but she was removed. This had nothing to do with removing supernatural things.

Further, the classroom was gone; it should be an obvious hint that it has nothing to do with Espers. The Espers didn't all of a sudden build an entire new wing in the building just for themselves.

[Jenx]

I agree that class 9 is legit and the whole Disappearance deal was just Yuki getting people out of the way.
Still,

Spoiler:

I'm inclined to believe Kyouko if she says Koizumi founded the Organization. Think about it for a second. First of all, it doesn't directly contradict when Koizumi said the Organization rescued him from the shock of being an esper; if he discovered other espers, it would prove that he wasn't just going nuts. Doesn't matter if they found him or he found them, it was just the discovery that he wasn't the only one. So that's not a direct contradiction it's just a deceptive half-truth, and that's pretty typical of Koizumi.

As for telling Kyon he was a lower level member, there are two possibilities. The first is that he could've started the Organization and then someone else could be the current leader.

The second is he was lying through his teeth and he IS the leader. When he just met Kyon and wanted to get along with the SOS brigade, it makes sense that he would lie to Kyon about that. Their relationship would be very different if he had told Kyon that he was the leader of this shadowy organization. Kyon would probably trust him even less than he already does, and would also have tried much harder to press information out of him; "I'm just a low-ranking member, I don't know" is a great excuse not to answer questions. So he has strong motivation to lie about it if he was the leader.
Kyouko, on the other hand, has no motivation to lie about that. At a point so late in the game it's not going to significantly change Kyon and Koizumi's relations. I can't think of a single way it would benefit her to lie about Koizumi founding the Organization. And Koizumi doesn't deny it, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, since I haven't read it yet. But how would it benefit him to suddenly deceive Kyon like this? It isn't as if it's going to earn Kyon's respect. He's been projecting this image of Koizumi the low-level worker, and this sort of shatters that image. If it was easy to contradict and deny, I think he would've done so.

Make sense? :|a

[Gamer_2k4]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I find the line of thought strange anyway; HARUHI was suppose to be in the school but she was removed. This had nothing to do with removing supernatural things.

The way I understand it, Yuki made three major changes to the world:

1) Kyouken Academy became co-ed. Implications: Itsuki attended there, as it better suited his abilities; North High had to be resized to account for the decreased attendance.
2) Haruhi decided not to attend North High. Implications: Kyon never meets her (or Mikuru or Itsuki), the SOS Brigade never gets formed, and she attends the other school instead with Itsuki.
3) Haruhi loses her powers. Implications: Time travelers don't exist (mutable space-time began with Haruhi, as no one can travel earlier than "three years ago"), espers don't exist (they got their powers at the same time), and aliens don't exist (they too are a product of Haruhi's will; see the fact that she defined their language in her "I AM HERE" writing).

I honestly don't know why Yuki made the other school co-ed, other than that it was good for the story. Aside from that, there was no concerted effort on her part to "remove the supernaturals," as they already would've lost both their powers and their contact with Kyon by way of the intercessor (Haruhi) being absent. Really, if she would've just taken Haruhi's powers (and with them, her nose for weirdness, making her less drawn to North High), that would've been sufficient.

[Jonbob0008]

Originally Posted by Jenx

Spoiler:

I can't think of a single way it would benefit her to lie about Koizumi founding the Organization.

Spoiler for discussion:

I can think of at least one reason: To build mistrust between Kyon and Koizumi and make it more likely that Kyon would cooperate with the ASOS.

Still, we don't know enough yet to really be sure. All I know is that I'm more anxious for future novels than ever.

[Ithekro]

Thing is, Yuki only changed a years worth of time, not all three years. All events up to the previous December happened as normal. Evidence is that Haruhi remembered John Smith and a girl being there back in the past. The memories of people had been altered so they thought things had happened differently than it had the last year...but she had probably had only really altered things that night and things were as there had been the previous day as Kyon remembered it. We can't really prove that last part though outside of Kyon and Mikuru(BIG)'s observation of the event.

Yuki used Haruhi's powers...but to what extent...we don't know. Did she create something from nothing? Did she destroy matter/energy when she used this power? Or did she just use it to overboost her own data manipulation powers by rearranging everything, without destroying or creating matter/energy? That may be a question never answered...because it is beyond us.

[VentAileron]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Thing is, Yuki only changed a years worth of time, not all three years. All events up to the previous December happened as normal. Evidence is that Haruhi remembered John Smith and a girl being there back in the past.

Spoiler for Reaction:

Your evidence only supports that everything during and before Tanabata three years ago remain unchanged, not only the events of the past year. The story of Haruhi Suzumiya only started during April in the same year the Disappearance arc occurred. The events of the December before that are non-existent, so I don't know where you get the idea that Nagato only altered the events of a single year. Taniguchi's claim that Kouyouen has been co-ed for a long time seems to suggest that it has happened for longer than a year.

Also, I believe Kouyouen has been co-ed by Nagato because Koizumi would have never transferred to North High if Haruhi was just a normal person and he just a normal human. To make this made-up universe more logical, Koizumi had to be somewhere else. Making Kouyouen co-ed made this change possible without moving Koizumi too far away, otherwise Kyon would never have found him in the timelimit.

As for Koizumi being the head of the Organization or not. Consider this. There's a big difference between the head of the Organization and being the founder of it. Being the founder, although it isn't common, doesn't automatically mean you're also the leader. The problem is that Koizumi has claimed to be an underdog since Melancholy, even to the point claiming that he doesn't know how the Organization is run. So in the end, one of them is lying; either Tachibana lied once, or we've been lied to by Koizumi 9 novels long.

The Anti-SOS Group isn't entirely made out of lies. Apparently, Koizumi cannot enter the Closed Space Sasaki makes and Tachibana unable to enter Haruhi's. This alone is enough reason to trust Tachibana's words than the other two Anti-SOS members. The question is more why there would be two people who can create Closed Space with each a different group of espers being able to enter them.

[Ithekro]

I recall someone stating that Yuki only altered a single year of time...probably from Yuki's own lips. If not it was Mikuru(BIG) since she's know what time was different what the normal timeplain

[Gamer_2k4]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Thing is, Yuki only changed a years worth of time, not all three years. All events up to the previous December happened as normal.

Not in the alternate timeline. If Haruhi is powerless, that means, at the very least, there have been no esper activities in the past three years. Aside from that, of course only a year changed; that was the only period of time where the SOS Brigade started making an impact on the world.

Incidentally, WAS there even a change? I'm trying to reconcile this in my head and am suddenly having difficulty doing so. So, one day Yuki decides to change the world. I don't remember the date exactly; let's say it was December 18th. So, past that point, the world is suddenly the new, normal, non-supernatural one. Everyone in the new world remembers events differently than Kyon.

But...the past didn't actually change, right? Instead, the present and future was diverted from its original course onto a new course with a fake past. In other words, the only changes were to the peoples' memories, not to their actual pasts. Mikuru, for example, remembers having a normal summer, even though she did actually participate in Endless Eight.

Problem is, the whole premise of the story is that Haruhi doesn't need to KNOW that she is a god in order to act like one. In other words, it can't just be memories that were changed; the past itself had to have changed so that she truly doesn't have her powers. Post-December 18, history itself was changed so that there were never any supernatural occurrences.

So where the heck did the John Smith that talked to young Haruhi come from?? He didn't exist in the new history. The old history has been completely replaced; it's gone. The only way to reconcile this is by saying that the two worlds are parallel timelines (think of Koizumi's illustration in the restaurant where Kyon jumped from one to the other). But that can't be true either, because if it was, Yuki could've just jumped ship and left Haruhi and the others back in the original timeline, down one member but none the worse for wear. The fact that she gave Kyon the option to pick between the two timelines indicates that they're mutually exclusive.

So what the heck really happened? I know it's been a year or two since the movie, and this stuff should all be resolved in our minds now, but it's giving me trouble again. Someone want to help me out?

[Ithekro]

From what I can figure, Yuki only change the world on that date specifically. She was extremely through. Depowering Haruhi, removing the Data Entities, probably blocking time travelers (maybe altering the future from that point onwards, or effectively creating a pocket dimension like the Endless Eight that she knows will only last three days). She then alters people's memories for the previous year save Kyon's. To everyone else, things have been this way since whenever. However that is memory replacement, not event replacement. Thus everything that has happened already really did happen...just everyone else remembers it differently, if they are meant to remember it at all (Yuki remembering Kyon at the Library for instance). But the events of 7/7 still happened and Kyon and Mikuru still traveled back three years in time, otherwise Haruhi wouldn't remember John Smith at all. (I can't account for Mikuru(BIG) because she would come from the corrected timeline...or she was already in the past so she can't be deleted....(Time Traveler logic doesn't always make sense)).

This means that all the powers were created three years ago (or however that works) The Time Travelers still existed because Mikuru is still there....she's not from our time. The Espers existed, but with Haruhi depowered they have no powers either...and with their memories altered they'd not remember anything of Closed Space or their god Haruhi. The alien existsed because Yuki and Ryoko are still there as they where not there before Haruhi gained power three years ago. Thus everything still happened, just as Kyon remembered it....until December 18th.

There is another clue. The Yuki in the past syncs up with herself on 7/7 and attempts to sync with herself of 12/18, the later fails due to her being blocked, but sh gets the data she requires. If the alternate Yuki had changed everything, past Yuki wouldn't have been able to sync with herself on 7/7 just an hour or so before Kyon and Mikuru(BIG) arrived. (though this is another one of those instance where time travel cna make your head hurt).

This is my understanding at this momement.

I have a Book 10 question related to this...When do the ASOS groups start appearing? When and why does the esper grop break off. When do the Canopy aliens become interesting in Haruhi...the time travelers hold no purpose when asking when save when id they arrive in the tie plain. Are any of these events related to what Yuki did the previous December?

[VentAileron]

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

So what the heck really happened?

Spoiler for Disappearance arc:

You make a good point to ask where the original John Smith went. Recall Kyon's conversation with Asahina (big) in the Disappearance arc. Asahina (big) stated the world has been changed during December the 18th. I think it's safe to assume the world is changed since the beginning of time, but only the things that are influenced by Haruhi are changed and negated. This indeed gives us the paradox that the John Smith Haruhi met could never have existed as time-travel is impossible in the new world. You've to remember though that it doesn't matter if Kyon really was there, it only matter that Haruhi had those memories. It was necessary for Nagato to leave a clue behind so Kyon could speak normally with Haruhi, thus, I think, for that reason, she left Haruhi's memories on that apart intact, even though the event could never have happened in the altered world.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

I have a Book 10 question related to this...When do the ASOS groups start appearing? When and why does the esper grop break off. When do the Canopy aliens become interesting in Haruhi...the time travelers hold no purpose when asking when save when id they arrive in the tie plain. Are any of these events related to what Yuki did the previous December?

Spoiler for Surprise novels:

I think the earliest record of the existence of the Anti-SOS is the Snow Mountain Syndrome short story. It is confirmed that at least Fujiwara and Suou were present at that time. Tachibana's opinion differs from the Organization because she is only able to enter Sasaki's Closed Space. I don't think the Canopy Domain is interested in Haruhi that much; they're being manipulated by Fujiwara somehow. Seeing Nagato wielding Haruhi's power was the reason Fujiwara started his plan; he needed Haruhi's powers to fix his time-line.

[ultimatemegax]

Quick notice:
All events from chapters 4 (preview) and 5 can be discussed without spoiler tags! They have been translated for those not wanting summaries or later chapters.

Now back to Disappearance and Intrigue:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

From what I can figure, Yuki only change the world on that date specifically. She was extremely through. Depowering Haruhi, removing the Data Entities, probably blocking time travelers (maybe altering the future from that point onwards, or effectively creating a pocket dimension like the Endless Eight that she knows will only last three days). She then alters people's memories for the previous year save Kyon's. To everyone else, things have been this way since whenever. However that is memory replacement, not event replacement. Thus everything that has happened already really did happen...just everyone else remembers it differently, if they are meant to remember it at all (Yuki remembering Kyon at the Library for instance). But the events of 7/7 still happened and Kyon and Mikuru still traveled back three years in time, otherwise Haruhi wouldn't remember John Smith at all. (I can't account for Mikuru(BIG) because she would come from the corrected timeline...or she was already in the past so she can't be deleted....(Time Traveler logic doesn't always make sense)).

This means that all the powers were created three years ago (or however that works) The Time Travelers still existed because Mikuru is still there....she's not from our time. The Espers existed, but with Haruhi depowered they have no powers either...and with their memories altered they'd not remember anything of Closed Space or their god Haruhi. The alien existsed because Yuki and Ryoko are still there as they where not there before Haruhi gained power three years ago. Thus everything still happened, just as Kyon remembered it....until December 18th.

There is another clue. The Yuki in the past syncs up with herself on 7/7 and attempts to sync with herself of 12/18, the later fails due to her being blocked, but sh gets the data she requires. If the alternate Yuki had changed everything, past Yuki wouldn't have been able to sync with herself on 7/7 just an hour or so before Kyon and Mikuru(BIG) arrived. (though this is another one of those instance where time travel cna make your head hurt).

This is my understanding at this moment.

On December 18th at 4:23 AM Yuki Nagato changes the entire world from that time until December 18th the previous year. That was confirmed by the Yuki Nagato on 7/7 three years prior. We do not know why that specific range was determined to be sufficient. Part of that change was to modify memories that Kouyouen was changed into a co-ed school to allow "gifted" students to attend. That allowed Itsuki Koizumi and other members of the science-oriented class 1-9 to attend that school as well as to allow Haruhi Suzumiya's 3rd middle school homeroom teacher to nag her about attending that school due to her grades.

Everything that happened up until the previous year's December 18th was unchanged. Since the Tanabata three years prior was unchanged, there had to be a Kyon (July/First year in High School), Mikuru Asahina (small/time traveler), Mikuru Asahina (big/time traveler), and Yuki Nagato (alien) on that day. In addition to that group of people, there was an additional Kyon (December/First year in High School) that called out to Haruhi Suzumiya (First Year in Middle School) because that time was unaltered. The Kyon that caused that event to happen had not traveled in time until the events of Disappearance.

There is no way with our current information to assume that esper powers were affected at 7/7 given that the two other factions were unaffected at that time. This discussion should go in another thread though.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

I have a Book 10 question related to this...When do the ASOS groups start appearing? When and why does the esper grop break off. When do the Canopy aliens become interesting in Haruhi...the time travelers hold no purpose when asking when save when id they arrive in the tie plain. Are any of these events related to what Yuki did the previous December?

The earliest time frame that we know for certain is that the Sky Canopy Domain began in December as Kuyou was not affected by Yuki's changes. No clues have been given as to when Fujiwara first arrived to this time nor when Kyouko Tachibana's group split away from the "Organization" if they were ever part of it.

[Jonbob0008]

I was under the impression when I read book 9 that Kyouko's group formed separately from Koizumi's Organization. They tried to form together as one group, but since they disagreed on who was the rightful owner of Haruhi's powers, they split up again.

[ijuinkun]

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

The way I understand it, Yuki made three major changes to the world:
3) Haruhi loses her powers. Implications: Time travelers don't exist (mutable space-time began with Haruhi, as no one can travel earlier than "three years ago"), espers don't exist (they got their powers at the same time), and aliens don't exist (they too are a product of Haruhi's will; see the fact that she defined their language in her "I AM HERE" writing).

As I understand it, what Yuki did with Haruhi's powers was not to cause them to cease to exist (in which case they would not have been available for her to use to revert the world once more afterward). Rather, she "locked out" Haruhi's access to her own powers, analogous to hacking a system's administrator account and revoking their administration permissions. Haruhi's powers were still there, but they now obeyed Yuki's commands instead of Haruhi's.

I honestly don't know why Yuki made the other school co-ed, other than that it was good for the story. Aside from that, there was no concerted effort on her part to "remove the supernaturals," as they already would've lost both their powers and their contact with Kyon by way of the intercessor (Haruhi) being absent. Really, if she would've just taken Haruhi's powers (and with them, her nose for weirdness, making her less drawn to North High), that would've been sufficient.

Given Yuki's goal of making Kyon focus his attention on her instead of Haruhi, she needed a world where Haruhi was not readily accessible to Kyon, yet was close enough that he could find her to invoke the escape program, hence Yuki moved her to Kouyouen. The more interesting question is why didn't Yuki put Mikuru in Kouyouen along with Haruhi and Koizumi? Mikuru was certainly a rival for Kyon's attention after all, especially since Yuki was giving herself only three days to convince Kyon to choose her.

[Gamer_2k4]

Originally Posted by ijuinkun

Given Yuki's goal of making Kyon focus his attention on her instead of Haruhi, she needed a world where Haruhi was not readily accessible to Kyon, yet was close enough that he could find her to invoke the escape program, hence Yuki moved her to Kouyouen. The more interesting question is why didn't Yuki put Mikuru in Kouyouen along with Haruhi and Koizumi? Mikuru was certainly a rival for Kyon's attention after all, especially since Yuki was giving herself only three days to convince Kyon to choose her.

Well, that still doesn't address why Yuki made it co-ed...

[GMT]

Originally Posted by ijuinkun

Given Yuki's goal of making Kyon focus his attention on her instead of Haruhi, she needed a world where Haruhi was not readily accessible to Kyon, yet was close enough that he could find her to invoke the escape program, hence Yuki moved her to Kouyouen. The more interesting question is why didn't Yuki put Mikuru in Kouyouen along with Haruhi and Koizumi? Mikuru was certainly a rival for Kyon's attention after all, especially since Yuki was giving herself only three days to convince Kyon to choose her.

But Kyon doesn't really listen to Mikuru the Younger, as she almost never has anything meaningful to say (that isn't swiss-cheesed by 'Classified Information'.) And having Mikuru and Tsuruya so forcibly reject him is essential to fostering Kyon's acceptance of the new world; so it makes sense for moeblob Mikuru to end up at North High.

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

Well, that still doesn't address why Yuki made it co-ed...

So she could put Koizumi on the same bus as Haruhi. We know that he has a thing for her to begin with. And alt!Koizumi goes to great lengths to get alt!Haruhi to notice him (to the point where he becomes her walking wallet, fat lot of good it did him.) Leaving Koizumi at North High would be dangerous, since (as it turns out) he's more than willing to listen to a ranting maniac and engage in a meaningful dialogue with him.

[Korsar13]

Mikuru in North High longer than a year