Hayate no Gotoku manga (raw discussion only)

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Yup, that sounds just like an Athena proclamation.

*Remembers the "Hayateeeeeee!!!!!!"*

Yes? and her thoughts (after acknowledging that she'll stay there for eternity) and conversation with Ikusa as well.

Originally Posted by Mentar

But not - and that's the important part - what's going on. As usual, she only tells him enough to get him to do what she wants.

True, she hasn't told Hayate what's going on yet, but I don't think there's any chance so far with Hina running away once again. Let's wait and see.

Originally Posted by Mentar

And you are gullible enough to buy that? For real?

I'm willing to cut Athena some slack here only for the argument of the meta-level: Telling Hayate would make it difficult to hide things from the reader, and not telling them upfront makes for more interesting storytelling.

There's no nothing wrong with Athena to avoid having people knowing about the RG since it contains the power great enough to end the world. Why would I think that she lied?

Whether the author deliberately tried to hide her intentions is another story.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Yes? and her thoughts (after acknowledging that she'll stay there for eternity) and conversation with Ikusa as well.

Forgive me the snark, but fortunately for her, Athena proclamations tend to have shorter expiration dates than "eternity" ^_^; ... or, to quote another masterpiece: It's astounding... time is fleeting... madness takes its toll...

True, she hasn't told Hayate what's going on yet, but I don't think there's any chance so far with Hina running away once again. Let's wait and see.

Fair enough. I have my doubts though that she is going to fill him in.

There's no nothing wrong with Athena to avoid having people knowing about the RG since it contains the power great enough to end the world. Why would I think that she lied?

Nothing wrong? If other people would seek the RG, that would be a valid reason. Unfortunately, it's rather that SHE is seeking the help from them, and presuming that this is going to involve risks or dangers for Hayate/Hina, giving them the truth would be the absolute minimum of common decency. A more proper approach would be to add a genuine apology. Fat chance, I know.

Whether the author deliberately tried to hide her intentions is another story.

For me, it's the only fig leaf for Athena that remains. Fans of her probably won't bother with it though ^_^;

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Forgive me the snark, but fortunately for her, Athena proclamations tend to have shorter expiration dates than "eternity" ^_^; ... or, to quote another masterpiece: It's astounding... time is fleeting... madness takes its toll...

No worries. I'm learning how to ignore meaningless ones. It's too bad Athena doesn't have the ability to see the future, huh?

Originally Posted by Mentar

Nothing wrong? If other people would seek the RG, that would be a valid reason. Unfortunately, it's rather that SHE is seeking the help from them, and presuming that this is going to involve risks or dangers for Hayate/Hina, giving them the truth would be the absolute minimum of common decency. A more proper approach would be to add a genuine apology. Fat chance, I know.

We still don't know what happened and what's Athena's trying to accomplish to determine anything. As far as I'm concern, Athena doesn't need to tell Hina anything if she just needs(or uses) Hina to regain her power, and the knowledge of the RG is an important matter. I supposed that Athena also doesn't trust Hina as much as she trusts Aiki and Hayate. If using Hina puts her in danger, I guess Athena should at least tell her something, although that something could put her in danger even more.

I believe that Athena already blackmailed Hina, from the spoiler, to stay at Nagi's place. Although it may be a "wrong doing," I'm looking forward see to it. It's unfortunate for Hina that she's kept in the dark by Hayate, Athena, and Aiki

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Could it be you're confusing me with someone?

I must have. Sorry about that!

Originally Posted by Mentar

Well, compared to Athena's violent tantrums

Do you mean back when she was six years old? I haven't seen any tantrums from her lately. And I've got to say it seems sort of odd to hold a six year old kid to the same standard as a sixteen year old girl...

Originally Posted by Mentar

Hina has been the epitome of tact and consideration

Hina's a sweet girl most of the time, but she also gets pretty huffy when Hayate doesn't react the way she wants him too. All you have to do is look at the end of the mini-arc where he's trying to move Tama to the new house.

Originally Posted by Mentar

... we'll see if Athena has learned anything in the meantime.

She seems to have learned it's better to manipulate than overtly try to force someone to do what she wants.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Tricky situations are fine with me. I hope that Hata is more creative about the path he is sketching for Hina this time - because, believe it or not, I'm a bit tired of the powerless-embarrassed-fleeing Hina too.

As madmac said, the way things are right now Hina is perfectly fine as a character...as long as she and Hayate aren't in the same scene. That's not to say she and Hayate never have good scenes together (the one that instantly springs into my mind is the scene in the Greece arc where she gets that hilarious "angry" look on her face because she doesn't want Hayate to know she's happy that he acknowledged her femininity), only that they tend to follow a set pattern that's gotten old to the point of unfunny.

If Hata has something more exciting planned for Hina than her typical blush and flounce, I really am all for it. (And since Athena won't be back to normal for three months--aka eternity in HnG time--she's been defanged as a romantic rival for the moment, so it's not like there's a problem there.)

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by musouka

Hina's a sweet girl most of the time, but she also gets pretty huffy when Hayate doesn't react the way she wants him too. All you have to do is look at the end of the mini-arc where he's trying to move Tama to the new house.

*cough-cough*
My mind might be starting to fog over, but wasn't Hina the one who sent Hayate to go confess to Athena?
That couldn't have been anything close to what she wanted to hear, and yet she reacted with grace to admit defeat in romance.
Probably nothing she does during the entirely of that arc could have been something she wanted to do, and yet she's willing to do so to let Hayate have what he wanted.

She even requests that he take her hand when they go look out over the city. She's not forcing anything for herself.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

My mind might be starting to fog over, but wasn't Hina the one who sent Hayate to go confess to Athena?

Yep, she was. We also didn't see any tantrums when Athena sent Hayate back to Nagi, so clearly she is an amazing angelic character that never ever fought Hayate over trusting his parents instead of her, right?

[Tom Bombadil]

Spoiler of 302 is out.

Spoiler for spoiler text:

それは心を溶かす诱惑の言叶…！！第302话「ウチにおいでよ」


ハヤテが义母を说得した后に
ハヤテが一応ヒナギクの姉の雪路に「どうすれば女性は一绪に住んでくれるんでしょうか」と相谈 し
その相手がヒナギクだと知らない雪路は「高校生の分际で彼女と同栖しようしている」と羡ましが るが
「プロポーズみたいに自分がその人をどれくらい大事に思っているかきちんと伝える爱情が重要」とアドバイス し
ハヤテが「ヒナギクさんと一绪に暮らせたら楽しいだろなぁって思っています」
「仆はいつもヒナギクさんに怒られてばかりですけどヒナギクさんが笑ってくれるととっても幸せな気分になり ます」
「だから仆と一绪に住んでもっと笑颜を见せてくれませんか?」などと言うと
ヒナギクが「そ・・そんな・・・!!プ・・・プロポーズみたいな事・・・!!」と言ったので
ハヤテが「はい・・・プロポーズみたいな事を言えば说得できると桂先生が・・・」と
余计な事を言ったので失败に终わったのだが
どっかにいったヒナギクが「どうして私はハヤテ君みたいな人を好きになっちゃったのよ!」と言ったのをアテ ネが闻いており
アテネが「好きな人と一绪に住んでその想いを知られるくらいならいっそ今それをハヤテに」と胁したので住む 事になった
オチはナギが夜になって「なんで朝っぱらからこんなに人がいるのだ?」でした。

Spoiler pics is also out on Baidu.

Spoiler for Hayate:

"Even though I always make you mad, but when you smiles it brings happiness to my heart.
Could you move in with me and show more of your smiles?"

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by musouka

Yep, she was. We also didn't see any tantrums when Athena sent Hayate back to Nagi, so clearly she is an amazing angelic character that never ever fought Hayate over trusting his parents instead of her, right?

O.o Eh?
Weren't we just talking about Hinagiku? How did you get a statement about Athena out of it?

I was simply pointing out that as recently as the last full arc ago, Hina wasn't acting the way you were saying you didn't like.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

O.o Eh?
Weren't we just talking about Hinagiku? How did you get a statement about Athena out of it?

I don't actually believe Athena is an angel. I'm just pointing out that someone's actions aren't overwritten by other actions. They're all a part of the character. We also have scenes of Hina attacking Hayate because he was late/made a joke she didn't like/ect, so I just don't think Hina is a good example in general of someone that keeps her temper out of understanding and love. That's because this is a slapstick comedy, though, not because Hina is evil.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by musouka

I don't actually believe Athena is an angel. I'm just pointing out that someone's actions aren't overwritten by other actions. They're all a part of the character. We also have scenes of Hina attacking Hayate because he was late/made a joke she didn't like/ect, so I just don't think Hina is a good example in general of someone that keeps her temper out of understanding and love. That's because this is a slapstick comedy, though, not because Hina is evil.

And again I point out that Hinagiku is a tsundere, it's part of the character framework she's been given. Her attacking someone for doing something she doesn't like is actually rare, as well as something she's trying to grow out of, and actually doing pretty well at it considering she's only been trying for the last few months.
It's actually implied that she does the best at this when confronted by Miki, because she's gotten so used to Miki pushing her buttons, which Miki does for her own enjoyment.

It's all up to a matter of taste I suppose.

[ridgezipline]

Originally Posted by madmac

(I wouldn't say I'm personally invested in Athena, so I don't really care if she's "likable" or not.)

ditto. same for athena, hina and the other girls. it's hard to argue who's better, who's kinder, who's more considerate unless it is stated flat out by the author himself.

plus, each girl expresses their 'love' for hayate in different ways o_o; it's a matter of picking which you prefer ^^;

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

O.o What?

Athena was implied to have been locked in the RG even before Hayate had gotten in. If Hayate had actually gotten a mortal injury, she wouldn't have been able to go get help.

And it was the training (including the kicking him in the stomach hard enough to make him complain) that I was talking about, not specifically when Midas was trying to kill him. If Hayate had gotten incapacitated during any of it, Athena would have been the only one able to help.
Also, Yanderes are known for sometimes killing the ones they love because they didn't get chosen, just out of spite.

I'm not trying to create a worst-case scene for Athena, just pointing out things.
I really wish you'd stop trying to paint me as an Athena-hater. There's only one character in HnG that I actually dislike.

._. i do understand your point. but i guess you don't find athena-hayate-slapstick-duo-act funny. -.-;;

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

*cough-cough*
She even requests that he take her hand when they go look out over the city. She's not forcing anything for herself.

i love hina in the first 100 chapters she was in.

like madmac said, her char seems to be getting less interesting as time goes by. chiharu in the handful of chapters she was in is more interesting than a full-blown hina-confessing-to-hayate arc -.-;

[Heiwatsuki]

omfg i love the development of the story now. Hayate living with Hinagiku and Athena will be hilarious. Though as with others, i feel as if hinagiku should confess already lol. But i wont get uninterested in her character. She will always remain one of my favorites .

I believe that Athena already blackmailed Hina, from the spoiler, to stay at Nagi's place. Although it may be a "wrong doing," I'm looking forward see to it. It's unfortunate for Hina that she's kept in the dark by Hayate, Athena, and Aiki

More like a bait rather than a blackmail lol

[Eleutheria]

Read 302. I think it is no spoiler to say that Hayate's talent of putting his foot in his mouth, is second to none ^^

[xellos2099]

I just finish reading 302

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Athena IS basically blackmailing Hina into living with her. Basically as spoiler before said, Athena overheard Hina on saying why she is in love with him. She then say oh that why she won't move in, so Athena say she will go tell Hayate that Hina like him. Hina panic button but Athena say she will keep the secret but Hina have to move in.

The funniest part was when Hayate was asking Hina's mother to let Hina move in. She then say, "Don't let Hina assault you" Hina then do one of her funny angry look and say "How the role has been reversed"

Then again Hayate can be VERY female incentive sometime. Hayate was wondering to himself what did he do wrong and the narrator say " EVERYTHING"

[Tom Bombadil]

A great chapter. It is not the first time Hayate said something that are come out the wrong way and totally misunderstood. That how the whole story started. But I found that Hina cave in too easily. I was expecting more drama. Now let's see how Hayate is going to make Nagi to approve all that. (I hope he doesn't give the ring to her.)

[xellos2099]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

A great chapter. It is not the first time Hayate said something that are come out the wrong way and totally misunderstood. That how the whole story started. But I found that Hina cave in too easily. I was expecting more drama. Now let's see how Hayate is going to make Nagi to approve all that. (I hope he doesn't give the ring to her.)

Well... Mini Athena has Hina's weak spot. I wonder will Athena eventually get jealous of Hayate serving Hina.

[Mentar]

Usually I've come to hate these "Hayate trampling over Hina's feelings who then gets mad and runs away" chapters, but I have to say that this one was very enjoyable for a change. And it showed an interesting general... well... fundamental "defect" in Hayate's personality in a most enlightening way.

What Hayate is lacking is the concept of independent wishes and desires. A feeling of an independent self, who has interests of his own. Throughout his life, he was conditioned to submit to the whims and wishes of others: His parents', then Athena's, then Nagi's. It doesn't bother him, that's the way he's been brought up, that's the way he lived. However, the concept of self, the concept of having desires and wishes of your own, is alien to him.

This is why he is so extremely insensitive at times. He expects orders that he's able to execute, and he fails when these orders aren't given, and it would rather be his own task to _discern_ the wishes/intentions/desires of others by himself. He doesn't know how to do that. So, when Yukiji told him (in general) how to get a girl to move in with you, he rather executed it by the letter, not the spirit - because he doesn't UNDERSTAND the spirit, he has no concept of it. This part of him has been crippled in the past.

So, if the task is to profess love to a girl and propose to her, he will do it. It's clear at his last panel when he's losing consciousness that he doesn't comprehend what he did, and why he failed. He doesn't "get" love at all.

That also explains some other observations of the past. Why he thought that after the reunion Athena "dumped" him where it's plainly obvious that she didn't. He simply didn't "get" it at all. But Athena ordered him away, so due to his conditioning he complied. This is also why Athena manages to deal with him much better than Hina or Nagi: She says very explicitly what she wants. In comparison, Nagi and especially Hina fail to do so when it comes to their romantic intentions, so naturally he acts completely clueless. Compare that to situations of danger, when Hina and Hayate cooperate naturally and perfectly (see rescuing Nagi/Ayumu in the temple or the final battle of the Greece arc), because there she's decisively telling him what to do, too.

Until Hayate develops this concept of "self", there won't be genuine eye-level romance in the show. Even in the Greece arc climax, Hayate's desires were very raw and basic: He wanted to SAVE Athena, and he wanted to APOLOGIZE to her. It also offers a good explanation why he had to ponder so much before he concluded that he probably "loved" her. Real romantic love includes a selfish element, the desire to have the other for oneself, and this selfish aspect is crippled in him. He didn't "feel" it this way.

As for the rest, I don't think that Hina caved too easily. She had already generally accepted the idea when she was by herself, before Hayate came and botched things again. So, giving in to Athena's coercion was pretty understandable in my book.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Spoiler:

Usually I've come to hate these "Hayate trampling over Hina's feelings who then gets mad and runs away" chapters, but I have to say that this one was very enjoyable for a change. And it showed an interesting general... well... fundamental "defect" in Hayate's personality in a most enlightening way.

What Hayate is lacking is the concept of independent wishes and desires. A feeling of an independent self, who has interests of his own. Throughout his life, he was conditioned to submit to the whims and wishes of others: His parents', then Athena's, then Nagi's. It doesn't bother him, that's the way he's been brought up, that's the way he lived. However, the concept of self, the concept of having desires and wishes of your own, is alien to him.

This is why he is so extremely insensitive at times. He expects orders that he's able to execute, and he fails when these orders aren't given, and it would rather be his own task to _discern_ the wishes/intentions/desires of others by himself. He doesn't know how to do that. So, when Yukiji told him (in general) how to get a girl to move in with you, he rather executed it by the letter, not the spirit - because he doesn't UNDERSTAND the spirit, he has no concept of it. This part of him has been crippled in the past.

So, if the task is to profess love to a girl and propose to her, he will do it. It's clear at his last panel when he's losing consciousness that he doesn't comprehend what he did, and why he failed. He doesn't "get" love at all.

That also explains some other observations of the past. Why he thought that after the reunion Athena "dumped" him where it's plainly obvious that she didn't. He simply didn't "get" it at all. But Athena ordered him away, so due to his conditioning he complied. This is also why Athena manages to deal with him much better than Hina or Nagi: She says very explicitly what she wants. In comparison, Nagi and especially Hina fail to do so when it comes to their romantic intentions, so naturally he acts completely clueless. Compare that to situations of danger, when Hina and Hayate cooperate naturally and perfectly (see rescuing Nagi/Ayumu in the temple or the final battle of the Greece arc), because there she's decisively telling him what to do, too.

Until Hayate develops this concept of "self", there won't be genuine eye-level romance in the show. Even in the Greece arc climax, Hayate's desires were very raw and basic: He wanted to SAVE Athena, and he wanted to APOLOGIZE to her. It also offers a good explanation why he had to ponder so much before he concluded that he probably "loved" her. Real romantic love includes a selfish element, the desire to have the other for oneself, and this selfish aspect is crippled in him. He didn't "feel" it this way.

You know... I think you're right. He doesn't do things for himself, at least since Athena's influence. His wish is a simple one, 3L(D?)K, seems to be the only thing he actually wanted for himself.
Even saving Izumi when they were kids he didn't really do on his own volition, it wasn't until he remembered Athena's teaching that he turned around and fought off Lucky for her, and when he's protecting Nagi, it's because he's acting as her butler, not for his actual personal wish.
When he was working, during the ten years after the separation from Athena and the beginning of the story, he was either working for his parents, and thus under their orders, or they had probably ordered him to get a job (or he had realized that they wouldn't support him, and thus needed to make his own money).

What Hinagiku told him, about never being happy if he's not a little bit selfish, will probably be big when he realizes what she intended.

[Sean Gaffney]

A quick note, which I'm posting in here as it mentions Athena: a recent chapter of Sayonara Zetsubou-sensei (234) has Koji Kumeta mocking the harem manga fans. He uses Hayate as an example, showing a fan saying "I'm gonna become anti-Hinagiku and become a fan of A-tan!" As Nozomu notes,. "So this means the author will come out even in the end?"

In case some of you are unaware, Sayonara Zetsubou-sensei makes many, many references to Hayate. Hata was Kumeta's assistant on Katteni Kaizo before Kumeta left Shogakukan. When Kumeta moved to Kodansha, Hata stayed and created Hayate... which is considerably more popular than Sayonara Zetsubou-sensei. This fact is mocked by Kumeta in a self-deprecating sort of way in many, many chapters of his manga.

[GlassesLady]

Oh god, I'm going to have to find that chapter now. Is SZS being scanlated still?