World Of Warcraft Discussion Thread

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

I've also started to notice that the queue is getting to be between 150-350 during the evenings again on Arygos. Maybe it is all those people who didn't get the game until Christmas, or in exchange for something they did get at Christmas (gift card or something). Only started doing this in the last week or so. Or maybe all those college kids are returning after being without for two weeks since they don't have WoW on their parent's/home computer.

Yeah, I didn't mention but Arygos is actually the server I am trying to transfer to. I don't really see that many people getting the game as a gift and then choosing that server, though it could be possible. What really gets me though is that the server is always listed as medium pop throughout the day, up until the evening when it suddenly just becomes locked and has a queue. And Proudmoore, which is perpetually marked full, doesn't.

This is apparently happening in a lot of places, there was a big thread on the official forums today of people complaining that their new recruits have been unable to transfer. It's especially annoying because a good portion of these people will likely be gone in the near future but they are ruining things for dedicated players and guilds. For me personally, if I lose my opportunity to join this guild because of this I am just quitting outright. May sound stupid, but after the effort I put into that app and just my search for a guild in general, I have zero patience left.

[Zenemis]

Originally Posted by Wordplay

Of course it isn't and that's by Blizzard's own design. If you choose a wrong class, such as a priest, you are not fit to PvP and I recommend avoiding all PvP servers with a wide girth. Currently, WoW is a PvE game stronger than ever before, where only a few classes can effectively fight back -or kill before the opposition has a chance to react.

For PvP, I recommend Warhammer.

Disc Priests definitely have a role, they're a rock-hard healer class, and give Fort and Prayer of Mending to start things off.

Warlocks are rubbish atm, as shown by high-rated Arena presence (lack there-of)

Hunters were very good last season, with Druid/Hunter being one of the top rated 2s teams.

[Kyero Fox]

well now I have all Tier7, and some other epics from Naxx and Heroics and other raids. working on a Fuckin 2hander ><

[Ending]

Here's a copy of that petition in Arenajunkies.com (http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=56217). Rock-hard healer-class indeed...

Dear Blizzard,

Like many players, I'm frustrated with the current state of PvP. I don't want to get into specific examples here (though they can easily be found if you're interested), but the current state of arenas is way to burst and gib oriented, to the point of being almost unplayable. While I'm sad to see arenas in their current state, it's not something I can't wait out. Those of us who have done our research, run the numbers in spreadsheets, and made use of the PTR knew that this was coming. We knew that 3.0 would be a joke (R.I.P. ESL Philly), and so did you as evidenced by the early cutoff of season 4. We knew that level 80 would not fix it. We knew that getting level 80 pvp gear would not fix it. And we know that the difference between our current 800 resilience and the extra 200 or so we'll be able to get with full deadly gear isn't going to be enough either. We know that in order to balance out new talents and talent points spend on offensive power rather than survivability a game mechanic change is necesary, something to fill the role that adding resilience and increasing stamina had in TBC.

I'm pretty patient, so I'm willing to wait for such changes. Clearly you rarely rush into large scale balance changes. I was expecting pvp to be broken for quite some time before the necesary changes are made. However, I have become very concerned about the comments I've been reading recently and the developer direction they seem to indicate.

"Damage-dealers were frustrated because they felt like just beating on someone (which their entire spec may have been designed around) was ineffective."

"We are sympathetic to players who don't enjoy a match that revolves entirely (key word) around CC'ing or mana-draining the healer."

"Even today you can see players who are glad to no longer have 20+ minute Arenas that feel more like chess matches."

These and other quotes like them give the impression that pvp at level 70 offered too much survivability, that getting kills in the past was somehow too hard, or that the game is better in it's current state. Simply put, that's wrong. Obviously there is a correct balance for survivability. Considering that the top 5v5 comp of S4 was 4dps with bloodlust (JAC) I have a hard time believing that survivability was too strong. Even in 2v2, where druid/x dominated due to the strength of druids in that bracket, double dps comps did fine when compared with all other healers.

Throughout season 4 coordinated burst was always viable for getting a kill. It was true for JAC, Cleave, Euro and 234X. It was true for WLD and RMP. It was even true for Warrior double healer.

The operative word here is "coordinated". Good players know how to coordinate. For a team of players to be able to burst a target doesn't require too much burst from any individual player. In fact, if a single player is able to burst solo then in concert with others that burst becomes simply overpowered and unstoppable. As I've said, burst itself is good and necessary. Burst needs to be able to punish players who are out of position, or in conjunction with cc.

This brings to mind another quote I saw.

"Players complained endlessly about being chain feared and stunlocked too. Still do. It's the reason there are so many ways to break CC in the game now. You can't pretend that crowd control was an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."

In fact, I maintain that CC is was a weapon of a more civilized age. When facing cc, players had options like LoS, defensive dispels that actually worked, or very careful defensive play on the part of their team to outlast the cc. Not only was cc more counterable, but setting up a cc chain on an oponent takes more skill than simply dumping damage into them with a big red button (alla pom pyro). Nevertheless, suppose one decided that cc was bad for the game, that it's best to leave healers uncced all the time and create kills solely by bursting before the healer can react, because somehow this is considered more desirable. In that case we'll expect ccs to be reduced or remove. In fact, the opposite is true. We've seen the addition of strangulate, hex, deep freeze, mirror image polymorphs, and others. Not only are there more cc options than ever, but the state of burst has made a certain type of cc way overpowered; silences. Improved Counterspell and Strangulate are instant cast from a long range, AND UNTRINKETABLE. Players who "complained endlessly" about being chain cced at least had the option of trinketing in the past (in addition to the far greater options for avoiding ccs with a cast time), but in the current state of the game as much damage happens in one silence as used to happen in a full duration fear or polymorph, and the recipient has no option to avoid or get out of it except for Divine Shield. Is it any surprise that Mages, DKs, and Pallies are doing so well?

I'd like to make another point about burst if I may, the distinction between good burst and bad burst. The Frost Mages burst mechanic is the paragon of good burst (at least it used to be), because it exhibits the key properties of being both predictable and preventable. Frost mages ran on teams that were designed to set up opportunities for them to cast their burst and played a continual back and forth vs opponents with many options for preventing or mitigating that burst. Similarly elemental shamans burst relied on casting and could be shocked, kicked, grounded, intercepted, etc. Arcane mages on the other hand represent bad burst. They can do incredible damage simply by being in los of an opponent and unsilenced, any time, anywhere, unpreventable, and more or less unpredictable. I don't blame the players, it's simply a matter of poor class design to make a spec like arcane arena viable. It may be fun for the 1500 player who gets to blow up gladiators, but it isn't good for the game.

Finally I'd like to touch on your comment about moving away from chess like matches. Ghostcrawler once said that "arena is not turnbased". In fact that is EXACTLY what arena is. Sure the turns get kind of jumbled, happen at different speeds for different classes, and sometimes get skipped, but at it's heart arena play is a game where every 1.5seconds the player gets a turn to decide what move to use. Lets face it, even mediocre players have been up against the GCD limit for years now. While there are some exceptions that are off the GCD, like vanish or interrupts, for the vast majority actions the speed of performance is neither highly variable nor an indicator of player skill. The skill in this game, just like in chess, comes from which action the player chooses to make each turn. To paraphrase Neilyo "the reason long games are so much better is because it allows time for the little things to add up". The more turns the game lasts and the more choices the player makes, the more they have a chance to influence the game by how well or poorly they play. The opposite is also true, when a player only lives for 3 globals, any options that player has to distinguish himself by playing well or poorly is completely removed. Due to the nature of cooldowns, even those few globals are not really choices. If I'm getting absolutely truckfucked I trinket->PS->PWS->die, it doesn't matter if the player is Hydra or some 1400 scrub, no one has a chance to make any interesting decisions in that amount of time. In an FPS like Counterstrike, fast games work because aiming and getting a headshot takes skill. In arena, pom pyro, CB evisc, bladestorm, or whatever burst you chose doesn't take skill, it eliminates skill by making games too short. Instead of skill you are simply left with an inflated influence of comp/spec (my cooldowns vs. their cooldowns), gear, and rng.

In conclusion, you need to bring back the "chess" or any hope for wow as a competitive game is lost. People who complain about kills being too slow or difficult need to either get the gear, learn to play, or get their kicks in BGs where there are plenty of undergeared alts to stomp. I believe that without at least a S4 level of survivability, wow as a skill based esport is dead. I know a lot of people agree with me.

[Kyero Fox]

Happy now Cry babies? Divine Shield now only does 50% Protection but no Speed reduce... go cry more and maybe they will take away our Stuns too......

[Tokkan]

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

Happy now Cry babies? Divine Shield now only does 50% Protection but no Speed reduce... go cry more and maybe they will take away our Stuns too......

... the Divine Shield change was that it reduces the damage caused by the Paladin is reduced by 50% instead of the speed increase, not that it now only reduces damage done to the Paladin by 50%.

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

Yeah I doubt they'd change it to be anything other then total immunity. That would be an exact duplicate of Divine Protection.

Wordplay is that quote of yours cut off? Seems like some is missing. I'm not too fussed into getting into a big PvP discussion since they usually dissolve into screaming matches and go no where. But there are some good points brought up in that post. The current state of 'insta-gibs' isn't cool, but the past times of 'beating a brick wall' weren't that great either.

There needs to be some stronger passive defenses that will prevent massive burst damage. Certain classes need burst damage since they are built around it, however I think a super short DR's on burst damage would be one way to go about it. Although I have no idea how something like that would be implemented. Of course the problem with that solution is that it removes the 'skill' element many people perceive that omgbbq crits are. I don't think it would really provide more strategy options either. Some might like more interactivity in their defense as well.

Perhaps Blizzard needs to take a look at making spells function differently (lesser potency?) in PvP on a base level, not through resilience, flatten the playing field for all to force CC use and strategies other then burst-hoooo. But again, some classes rely on bursts, or, at least the crits.

[Kyero Fox]

oh X'D read it wrong :P

[krisslanza]

I remember way back someone kind of described WoW PvP in a pretty accurate way.
"WoW isn't a PvP game. It's a PvE game with PvP tacked on the end."

[Ithekro]

Considering the first thing a person does is treat a player like another mob...and it doesn't work...."well something's wrong" comes to mind first. Then when you, yourself drop like a mob in return...."huh?"

But as mentioned...Warlock = squishy. Dsp class redesigned around big numbers and DoTs doesn't do so well when niether big numbers nor DoTs are effective. And Fear....Fear what's that? The only time Fear has been of much use to me pvp is around Halaa, when you are going against players that aren't in Arena gear and have no trinket. Feared a shadow priest off a cliff once. Of course he'd mind contolled me off the same cliff earlier (I killed him three times in a row until that point, then I couldn't kill him again without help. Probably because he was ready after that)

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

Originally Posted by krisslanza

I remember way back someone kind of described WoW PvP in a pretty accurate way.
"WoW isn't a PvP game. It's a PvE game with PvP tacked on the end."

Funny thing is, I think PvP *was* tacked on at the end. I seem to remember that PvP wasn't originally going to be a part of the game. It was only added to placate the PvP crowd.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Tokkan

... the Divine Shield change was that it reduces the damage caused by the Paladin is reduced by 50% instead of the speed increase, not that it now only reduces damage done to the Paladin by 50%.

Incidentally, the haste debuff used to be a direct 50% dps nerf, but the advent of all the new paladin instant attacks in the retribution tree made that penalty less and less relevant. Blizzard recently realized this and changed it to something more universal. It's as simple as that.

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs

Funny thing is, I think PvP *was* tacked on at the end. I seem to remember that PvP wasn't originally going to be a part of the game. It was only added to placate the PvP crowd.

I wonder what the game would be like now had they not done that. Would like to say it'd be better but considering how much money the PvP crowd probably brought them, I couldn't say that confidently.

Still have not been able to transfer servers, in fact I've been keeping my DK logged in even when not playing the game just to avoid the queue when I do decide to play. My character has spent about 10 hours over the past 2 days sitting in the tent in Camp Winterhoof while I play Fate/Stay Night instead. Man do I love that tent.

And wow, you mods are superhuman, I was about to report that post but you got it before I could even get to the button.

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

Maybe I'm just a little bitter today but just walking into a thread about a game which clearly most of posting here enjoy and stating the game flat out sucks while offering no real discourse as to why you think so isn't really helpful or appreciated.

Monetary restrictions on your gaming choice are a fair enough reason as to why you are unable to play a game but stating that it is one of the reason the game sucks is fairly ignorant. I guarantee you those two games you mentioned have costs attached to them, just glancing at the websites I can see 'item shops' where its possible to purchase gear for use in game. If I looked deeper there are probably more costs involved somewhere. These games aren't designed solely for the enjoyment of the players, they are made to make money be that via item sales or character progression or in game advertising. While you may feel that WoW is expensive many people do not consider it to be so, otherwise they wouldn't be paying for one (or more) accounts.

WoW has its faults, its art design is subject to much conjecture such as it being to low-quality, and the bonus the game can run on low end systems - many forget it is the style of the game and fits the universe for which the game is based upon for the last 20 years or whatever. The graphics of the game are a personal taste and its fine to dislike them, I know it can take a while to go from another game with highly-rendered models to something like WoW with its simple, yet (usually) high quality models. It took me a good month or two to get used to them initially after playing EQ and some other games.

Many think the game is too easy, and that it rewards people for little effort and caters towards the 'casual' crowd, but you can look at it as a representation of society now-a-days. People want instant rewards, they do not want to wait and want things to go faster. A byproduct of a throw-away society. But wait, the game was specifically designed that way to allow for as many people to feel that they can achieve something quickly (yet we are still on the treadmill each night!), to do something as a break from the normal mundane of daily life, to do something 'fun' and 'enjoyable'. I know a couple of very very driven business men that own and manage some very prosperous companies and work very hard at what they do out of game (they do the same with in-game theory crafting too since they enjoy the numbers), but play the game to relax and are still able to achieve stuff and are not stuck on the grinding stone of past MMOs like EQ or (Korean?) grind based MMO's like Ragnarok or Lineage.

Anyway I'm not going to go on a further tirade (because you can discuss the pros/cons of WoW till Judgment Day), my point is if you want to state that you dislike a game, give a decent reason and be open to discussion.

[krisslanza]

Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs

Funny thing is, I think PvP *was* tacked on at the end. I seem to remember that PvP wasn't originally going to be a part of the game. It was only added to placate the PvP crowd.

Darn the PvP crowd. All they bring with them is BAAAAAWWW, LOLNERF, BUFFPLZ, Teabagging, Ganking, and so many other bad things...

[Ithekro]

There seems to be some sort of emergency free server transferes to some new server. I guess the Christmas crowd was larger than expected. Or else everyone that waited to play a DK is doing so now after hitting 80 (or perhaps someone decided to start a new alt to get the "new" experiance of grinding to 80).

Personally I'm going back and forth between my main (working on Netherwing rep) and my hunter alt (67), who is just going to try to hit 68 and skip the rest of Outland if possible. His mining is already nearly 400 and all I have to do is hit the engineering trainer in Northrend to get the next level...but first the level 350 goggles. That will only require a short trip to Stormwind and a hope that someone is selling Heavy Knothide leather (need 4 more pieces). Kind or weird that we don't have a skinner/leatherworker that is high enough level in the guild yet. But then it isn't a big guild.

[Kyero Fox]

Originally Posted by krisslanza

Darn the PvP crowd. All they bring with them is BAAAAAWWW, LOLNERF, BUFFPLZ, Teabagging, Ganking, and so many other bad things...

yea and Darn other people for making appearance Crucial to the game >_> I wonder who dat kind of person can be

[krisslanza]

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

yea and Darn other people for making appearance Crucial to the game >_> I wonder who dat kind of person can be

Looks are serious business. Would you rather have to wear horribly mismatched and gaudy looking gear just because it's the best?

I wouldn't. I'd wear something that looks nice.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by krisslanza

Looks are serious business. Would you rather have to wear horribly mismatched and gaudy looking gear just because it's the best?

I wouldn't. I'd wear something that looks nice.

Well... yes. Honestly almost everything's ugly on a troll anyway. If I wanted to look cool I'd be wearing level 38 grays.

[Ithekro]

Just a noteL Wordplay's thesis is fully editted now instead of missing three paragraphs.