Shingeki no Kyojin (Attack on Titan) - Manga discussion

[Ligerleon89]

Originally Posted by GDB

No one knows the Beast Titan is on their side yet.

Also, they were going to face war either way. Hell, Eren did not actually begin attacking until Marlay announced they were declaring all-out war. Can't get butthurt when you declare war and then promptly get your ass handed to you.

Yeah. They can't entirely put this on Eren, but it's too late, despite Sasha's errors that led to her death. Eren has no choice but to regain the trust of his comrades after this tremendous payoff of the mission. It already hurts to see Eren taking this hard, and he won't have long to live. He just wants this thing down and over with before dying. And his objectives until he regains that trust is going to be more difficult, and Sasha's life is on his hands.

[The Small One]

I think that the slow death of Sasha was something different. Usually the people die especially fast in this manga, beeing crushed or eaten by Titans. This time there was some suspense which was kinda new.

Talking about death: How long do the Shifters have left to live?
Reiner, Annie and Zeke are probably the first to reach their time limit, but how long do they have?

[GDB]

Originally Posted by The Small One

Talking about death: How long do the Shifters have left to live?
Reiner, Annie and Zeke are probably the first to reach their time limit, but how long do they have?

Assuming they all got their powers at the same time (I don't recall when Zeke did), I think they had less than a year left. Pieck is probably in the same boat as them, unless Marlay was smart enough to stagger their Titans. Eren I think had... 3 years left? Don't recall, it's been a while.

That being said, I could easily see them saying that since Eren ate another Titan, it either resets his timer, adds another "cycle" to him, or adds whatever was left of that Titan's time to his.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by GDB

No one knows the Beast Titan is on their side yet.

They're pretty close to figuring that out already.

Originally Posted by GDB

Also, they were going to face war either way. Hell, Eren did not actually begin attacking until Marlay announced they were declaring all-out war. Can't get butthurt when you declare war and then promptly get your ass handed to you.

But that was Taybar's plan all along.

Marley realized that the whole world was against them and that they could no longer avoid being crushed with the few titan powers they had remaining.

So from Chapter 100 we learned that they devised a plan to shift the hatred of the world back to the Eldians. All that huge event they organized was just a bait for Paradis. They knew that Paradis would take that chance to strike at them. The Taybar head was willing to sacrifice his life for that.

They wouldn't have done all that if they believed that the world would be convinced by mere words, they wanted the world to witness the danger Paradis island could pose.

Eren basically played into Taybar's hand.

Of course war would have happened anyway, but it would have been a multiple fronts war with many still fighting Marley.

Now a lot of countries are going to side with Marley to fight Paradis and if the chances of convincing the world that Eldians aren't demons were low to begin with, now they are even lower.


I don't know, it could even be that Eren willingly played his part in taybar's plan, knowing that all the Eldians in Marley would have been slaughtered by the invaders after the inevitable country's fall. That would explain why Zeke is allied with him. But how does he plan to deal with the hatred he redirected to Paradis now?

[Ligerleon89]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

They're pretty close to figuring that out already.



But that was Taybar's plan all along.

Marley realized that the whole world was against them and that they could no longer avoid being crushed with the few titan powers they had remaining.

So from Chapter 100 we learned that they devised a plan to shift the hatred of the world back to the Eldians. All that huge event they organized was just a bait for Paradis. They knew that Paradis would take that chance to strike at them. The Taybar head was willing to sacrifice his life for that.

They wouldn't have done all that if they believed that the world would be convinced by mere words, they wanted the world to witness the danger Paradis island could pose.

Eren basically played into Taybar's hand.

Of course war would have happened anyway, but it would have been a multiple fronts war with many still fighting Marley.

Now a lot of countries are going to side with Marley to fight Paradis and if the chances of convincing the world that Eldians aren't demons were low to begin with, now they are even lower.


I don't know, it could even be that Eren willingly played his part in taybar's plan, knowing that all the Eldians in Marley would have been slaughtered by the invaders after the inevitable country's fall. That would explain why Zeke is allied with him. But how does he plan to deal with the hatred he redirected to Paradis now?

...I wonder if it goes back to Eren's original promise to kill all of the titans. Maybe their power is just too much for the whole world to handle. It's just a thought perhaps.

[Twi]

Originally Posted by Ruki0089

It's Sasha's fault for killing Gabi, Jean and Sasha hestitate.
Especially they are in enemies territory... It's wrong killing children? Don't give me that shit...

Gabi could've been passed off as a Civilian until she picked up that gun. Jean actually fired on Falco and it got diverted. The guy who she killed and took his gear hesitated and got killed for it. So while Sasha paid for not killing Gabi, her reasons are understandable at least.

@ Jan-Poo

And Willie's plan to rile the world against Paradis would've happened whether or not Eren intervened. He gave them all the false promise of putting an end to the terrors of the titans by feeding them half-truths (as far as I can tell) and he's largely considered the world's most trustworthy person. Eren killing him and a bunch of officials didn't change a thing aside from show that they're ready and willing to take on everyone who comes for them. He doesn't even need the rest now, he has Zeke meaning he can literally order those Wall Titans to get to stomping. The Eldians were never going to be treated well through peace and crap given how much the world hated them for the ability to become Titans, they were just living weapons at best, so at this point either they fight back for their own rights or they die.

Aside from the casualties to the civilians and the attacking group, this was a victory.

[Ligerleon89]

Originally Posted by Twi

Gabi could've been passed off as a Civilian until she picked up that gun. Jean actually fired on Falco and it got diverted. The guy who she killed and took his gear hesitated and got killed for it. So while Sasha paid for not killing Gabi, her reasons are understandable at least.

@ Jan-Poo

And Willie's plan to rile the world against Paradis would've happened whether or not Eren intervened. He gave them all the false promise of putting an end to the terrors of the titans by feeding them half-truths (as far as I can tell) and he's largely considered the world's most trustworthy person. Eren killing him and a bunch of officials didn't change a thing aside from show that they're ready and willing to take on everyone who comes for them. He doesn't even need the rest now, he has Zeke meaning he can literally order those Wall Titans to get to stomping. The Eldians were never going to be treated well through peace and crap given how much the world hated them for the ability to become Titans, they were just living weapons at best, so at this point either they fight back for their own rights or they die.

Aside from the casualties to the civilians and the attacking group, this was a victory.

The Power of the Titans is an incredible power indeed. It gives you the power of a Giant and then some. Could there really be peace with the Eldians as is? Because there's plenty of what if questions that could always shattered that peace they desired. So long as power like that exists and is abused, people will always be afraid of that power. And that fear drives them to find a way to get rid of what they are afraid of, some on the opposition would use that power to that end, but it is a mess that I'm not good enough to explain in every single detail just yet.

Some people are all for peace, but there's always something such as fear in the way. Eren is blamed for ruining a chance for the Eldians to obtain peace for his intervention without consulting the rest of the SC. But I would ask them, is it really possible for the whole world to leave them alone as is, Paradis that is, with the strength they have? Twi already gave his response, but I would like to ask other with their opinions on this as well. When you have power like the Titans is there any guarantee that somebody won't abuse that power? All it takes is even one person to get an idea that spell big trouble for everyone else. Because that's what most people are afraid of when it's used against them.

[MK-95-]

Originally Posted by The Small One

I think that the slow death of Sasha was something different. Usually the people die especially fast in this manga, beeing crushed or eaten by Titans. This time there was some suspense which was kinda new.

Talking about death: How long do the Shifters have left to live?
Reiner, Annie and Zeke are probably the first to reach their time limit, but how long do they have?

Eren became a Titan shortly after the fall of Wall Maria. So, that's roughly 10 years ago seeing as the first half takes place 5 yrs after Wall Maria fell. Then after the Survey Corps fought the Warriors, successfully repelled them and reclaimed Wall Maria/routed the titans, 1 yr had passed. Add on the 4 yr time-skip and that makes it 5 yrs. Since each titan has a 13 yr lifespan, Eren has roughly 3 yrs left.

In Annie and Reiner's cases, they became titans right before being deployed on their mission to Paradis, so we can also assume their remaining lifespans to be somewhere around 3 yrs like Eren.

Armin became a titan right before the time-skip, so he has 9 or so yrs left and Galliard became a titan sometime during the time-skip, so we're looking at 9-10 yrs for him.

As for Pieck and Zeke, the time of their titanization is unknown and there isn't sufficient information available to estimate the time-frame in which they became titans. Tho in Zeke's case, since he was actively grooming Colt to be his successor, it can be assumed that he doesn't have much time left.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Twi

And Willie's plan to rile the world against Paradis would've happened whether or not Eren intervened.

Then the head of the Taybar family sacrificed himself for nothing. There was no need for him to expose himself in such way. In chapter 100 he explains that the whole reason he chose to do that was to lure Paradis to show on that event.

At the very least he didn't believe that mere words would have sufficed to get everyone on his side, and honestly I don't really see why all those countries that Marley waged war against should suddenly start to believe in whatever they say.

he has Zeke meaning he can literally order those Wall Titans to get to stomping.

Wait, why do they even need Zeke for that? If they wanted to give the coordinate to a royal family heir they would have convinced Historia to eat Eren. The issue here is that as soon as you give the coordinate to a royal family heir they also inherit all the memories of past kings and therefore they decide to just stay closed inside the walls. Why Zeke should be different?

Originally Posted by Ligerleon89

Twi already gave his response, but I would like to ask other with their opinions on this as well. When you have power like the Titans is there any guarantee that somebody won't abuse that power? All it takes is even one person to get an idea that spell big trouble for everyone else. Because that's what most people are afraid of when it's used against them.

That would be true if the world wasn't rapidly moving toward a future where titan power will no longer be the strongest asset in a war. Once someone discovers the atomic bomb, Paradis will be as much as threatening as anyone with it.
There are only two realistic solutions for the Eldians if they want to survive: convince the world that they aren't the spawn of the demons, that they are just human beings with some horrible power that they don't even desire, or subjugate\exterminate the people of the whole world so that they won't decide to go in there with airplanes carrying mass destruction weapons.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Wait, why do they even need Zeke for that? If they wanted to give the coordinate to a royal family heir they would have convinced Historia to eat Eren. The issue here is that as soon as you give the coordinate to a royal family heir they also inherit all the memories of past kings and therefore they decide to just stay closed inside the walls. Why Zeke should be different?

It's simple. They're not planning to have Zeke eat Eren at all.

The only time we've seen Eren use the coordinate was when he touched titan Dina. He later figured out it was because she was of royal blood, and wondered if it would work with Historia. I'm guessing it doesn't work if he touches a human, even if that person is of royal blood. They need to be a titan. That's why they need Zeke, he's the only titan with royal blood that can act as a catalyst for Eren's power. Eren will just ride on his back or something.

[The Small One]

I really wonder how Zeke reacted, when he heard that he is of royal blood. We really need a flashback.

[Twi]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Wait, why do they even need Zeke for that? If they wanted to give the coordinate to a royal family heir they would have convinced Historia to eat Eren. The issue here is that as soon as you give the coordinate to a royal family heir they also inherit all the memories of past kings and therefore they decide to just stay closed inside the walls. Why Zeke should be different?

Will of the First King, remember? If Historia gets the coordinate, she'll be just like the woman who Grisha ate and not be willing to do anything, on top of being able to brainwash every single Eldian on Paradis . That's why she, of everyone else, cannot gain the Coordinate. That's why, along with not wanting to kill a friend, she doesn't eat Eren when he asked her to. Eren doesn't have that limitation since he isn't of Royal Blood and only needs to be in contact with anyone who is, and Historia keeps her free will.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by The Small One

I really wonder how Zeke reacted, when he heard that he is of royal blood. We really need a flashback.

Zeke already knows. The Beast Titan as a default does not have the ability to partially control Titans.

Looks like the world is headed for a world war with some countries siding with the New Eldian Empire/Paradis and others with a weakened Marley.

To put it into perspective Paradis has been covertly making diplomatic overtures to other countries and has made alliances with several to bring Marley to its knees. But the war in the Mid-East abruptly ended weakening Marley's position as a super power. This forced Willy for an idiotic plan to have the World attack Paradis while they take its resources. Paradis hasn't yet made agreements with other countries.

So Paradis is left with a choice. Form alliances slowly with diplomacy or do a sneak attack coordinating with the allies they already have.

Eren disobeyed orders. Willy enacted his plan.

Basically both Willy and Eren ruined their timetable. Time was neither on Paradis or Marley's favor.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Twi

Will of the First King, remember?

Yeah I remember that, I specifically mentioned it in the very part you quoted.

Originally Posted by Kanon

He later figured out it was because she was of royal blood, and wondered if it would work with Historia. I'm guessing it doesn't work if he touches a human, even if that person is of royal blood. They need to be a titan. That's why they need Zeke, he's the only titan with royal blood that can act as a catalyst for Eren's power. Eren will just ride on his back or something.

I don't remember these particulars so I guess it's just speculation? Sure the only time Eren was able to control titans was after he touched titan form Dina, but did he even realize that was Dina?
At any rate even if that was true, the only reason to have zeke would be to avoid making sacrifices.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Basically both Willy and Eren ruined their timetable. Time was neither on Paradis or Marley's favor.

Willy didn't have much choice, he knew that an attack was coming and he knew he couldn't stop it, so he dangled a bait in front of Eren to make him attack at the worst possible moment for Paradis. I wonder why he didn't simply tell his sister to stay hidden. Did he think she could win? Imagine if she didn't show up, Eren would have attacked for nothing.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I don't remember these particulars so I guess it's just speculation? Sure the only time Eren was able to control titans was after he touched titan form Dina, but did he even realize that was Dina?
At any rate even if that was true, the only reason to have zeke would be to avoid making sacrifices.

Eren realized the titan was Dina when he saw her getting turned in his father's memories. I did say "I'm guessing" when I mentioned the power not working with humans, but this is extremely likely to be the case. Otherwise they wouldn't need Zeke at all and would have Eren hold hands with Historia. It explains why they decided to make an alliance with Zeke in spite of everything he did to them, they simply had no other choice.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Kanon

they simply had no other choice.

They would still have a choice. Turn Historia into a titan. Just not the coordinate titan.
That's why I said Zeke is only needed if they are not willing to make sacrifices.

Btw, assuming they still couldn't break Annie's crystal, Historia wouldn't even need to eat a human titan right away, since Dina certainly wasn't.
Historia could simply be tied up and only eat a human titan when they catch an enemy one (o hey, they just did that) or when Armin's time is about to expire.

Of course that would mean that Historia would have her lifespan shortened, but we know that if someone doesn't eat a human titan when they are about to die, the power simply transfers to a random Eldian. Historia is the type that would rather shoulder a burden herself than to let it fall to some other person, I think.

[Kanon]

That would be more than just a sacrifice. Historia is their Queen, it's out of the question to turn her into a mindless titan. Not to mention how inconvenient it would be. But I see your point. I suppose they could have sacrificed Armin to achieve the same result of obtaining a shifter with royal blood. This could be their back-up plan actually.

[Anh_Minh]

Why oh why didn't they keep watching the recovery until the end? If they'd just watched like normal, Gabi couldn't have surprised them.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Why oh why didn't they keep watching the recovery until the end? If they'd just watched like normal, Gabi couldn't have surprised them.

What I also wondered if they still have titan serum around to use as a last resort system to save important people.

Of course using it inside a blimp wasn't a good idea, so even if they had it, they still couldn't use it.

There's also the issue of having to keep that person(titan) imprisoned somewhere until they get a human titan to feed her, but I suppose it's still better than letting her die.

Originally Posted by Kanon

That would be more than just a sacrifice. Historia is their Queen, it's out of the question to turn her into a mindless titan. Not to mention how inconvenient it would be. But I see your point. I suppose they could have sacrificed Armin to achieve the same result of obtaining a shifter with royal blood. This could be their back-up plan actually.

I think having Armin with his brain functioning right now is more important for them. While being without a King or Queen is something that they can do without for a while. As a matter of facts Darius Zackly was the de facto leader of Paradis until recently and he's probably still around.

But yeah that "option" I was talking about is pretty crazy and that's something they really wouldn't do with a light heart, but if they truly desperately need the coordinate power, it's still a valid course of action (assuming our speculations so far are correct).

[Ultragunner]

chap 106 is out, and we get more context of things, and I am still salty about Sasha