2009-05-01, 01:21 | Link #1921 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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That's actually a really awesome theory. Cookies to you.
Also, the novels usually start off fairly dull... and then something really big happens. I'm still more inclined to think that these are actually parallel universes and that new girl is a slider though. Would make sense. |
2009-05-01, 02:24 | Link #1923 | |||
Sav'aaq!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 51
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For all we know, "Fujiwara's" group of time travelers are the time traveler equivalent of post WWI Germany. With the massive post-war penalties levied on Germany, the average German, who most likely had little to do with the war their former leaders got them into, would feel pretty much like a "puppet" of the rest of Europe. What they ended up doing to try to make their country great again was to elect a charismatic leader with a strong message who they thought would lead them back to greatness. It...didn't work out too well. On the other side, "friends having fun" has a pretty straightforward "noble" component when experience shows that one of those "friends" is very capable of subconsciously destroying the universe and all her billions of sentient creatures in a fit of boredom... Sympathize with "Fujiwara" all you want, but if one of the timelines ends up with Kyon giving the victory to his side, don't be too surprised when Ol' "Fuji" declares "Finally! With them gone, there's no one to stop us from nuking Detroit!"... Quote:
Best. Justice League. Ever. Quote:
With all the convolution involved in Haruhi to this point, wouldn't the most surprising and satisfying thing be if everything actually was what it seemed to be for once?
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2009-05-01, 06:17 | Link #1924 | |||
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
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Of course you could argue that if there was any attempt such as this, it'd be more comparable to that one Star Trek episode where they killed that good intentioned peace activist who would have prevented the US from joining world war 2, letting the Nazi's win. Quote:
On one hand we have the time travelers who realistically have to resort to the mass murder of millions continually to meet their objectives. Then we have Sasaki time travelers, who may have to kill quite a few (but still less than the Mikuru faction) for some time and who's success would mean they wouldn't have to kill anyone anymore and that the Haruhi time travelers wouldn't have to kill anyone. Quote:
And that's what the Mikuru group could be.
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2009-05-01, 09:30 | Link #1925 | ||
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Of course, now that they know Haruhi is the true source of the time machine, they have to kill Haruhi, a much harder task. Quote:
I give you "run kid over with truck" by the Fujiwara group. You give me something worse. There is no evidence that Fujiwara kill less people than Mikuru. You just THINK they do.
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2009-05-01, 09:41 | Link #1926 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Anyway, IMO, Mikuru's faction want to keep the past intact chiefly because any significant changes will result in people and things in their world becoming Ret Gone, i.e. erased from existence. You'd do a lot of morally dubious things too if you thought that you were preventing a change in history that would result in your friends, a family member, your nation, or possibly your SELF having never existed. I expect that it is the belief of Mikuru's faction that the goals of Fujiwara's faction can not be realized without the whole timeline from Haruhi's time until their own being rewritten, including the retroactive non-existance of any people who would not be in the new timeline. Let's look at the standard "Terminator" scenario. Somebody really REALLY hates somebody very dear to you will do, whom he blames for ruining his live, even though the action against himself itself is not one that a third party would call a morally reprehensible one. Maybe it was witnessing against him in court, resulting in him being jailed, or maybe it was something as unaware and innocent as making him late for an appointment and unwittingly causing him to be rejected for a job. Anyway, so this guy goes back in time and decides that the solution to his problem is to kill the person he blames before the offense ever happened. Now, let's say that you also have access to time travel, and you travel back in time to catch this guy just as he is about to pull the trigger. The question is: Would (and should) you stop him, even if you have to kill him to do so? More abstractly, how far would you go to ensure that yourself, or your husband/wife/family/friends are born (or are not killed)? That is the kind of dilemma that Mikuru's faction are facing. How many people can a person kill (or otherwise harm) in order to survive before we can be morally justified in saying that he or she should just submit to being killed instead? |
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2009-05-01, 13:24 | Link #1927 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Which is more evil? The person who kills a few to save the many or the person who kills many to save a few? |
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2009-05-01, 13:30 | Link #1928 | |
Kneel Before Your King!
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2009-05-01, 13:35 | Link #1929 | |||
Sasaki-ist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 37
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True, there is no evidence that Mikuru's group would kill more people than Fujiwara's group. There is evidence, though, that they are willing to mindrape their own agents to keep them from giving away any information that would be inconvenient to spread. Remember my point about there not being a need to refuse to tell people about future events unless said people would prefer to avoid those events? |
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2009-05-01, 14:21 | Link #1930 | |
Kneel Before Your King!
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2009-05-01, 14:49 | Link #1932 | |||
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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You WANT information to be inconveniently spread? Does timeline chaos sound fun to you? You might as well claim it is a breach of freedoms to force doctors to wash their hands before performing surgery. Safety first.
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2009-05-01, 14:58 | Link #1933 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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They can't actually kill Haruhi though. History says they didn't. Maybe.
Hence why they need to use her powers to do so, and the easiest way would be to transfer the powers to Sasaki, who they can control easily. Or so they think. Quote:
That's a bad analogy and I can't think of a better one, unfortunately. |
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2009-05-01, 15:58 | Link #1934 | ||||
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
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And if the Fujiwara group really wanted to kill the kid in question, you gotta wonder why they they didn't turn around to finish the job. Or put a bomb in the truck. Or just have someone shoot him. Quote:
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-Future people want history X to happen -History X happening is reliant on Future people going into the past at certian events and committing acts that will ensure the future -Given that their sole concern is for history X, whether or not an action will result in a positive, neutral, or negative outcome short term or long term will not be considered. -So while good things and neutral things will be done, very negative things will also be done So bassically the time travelers would have to do anything without regard for morality to ensure their future. For example, if the Future peoples history did not include Guy Gabaldon talking 1500 Japanese soldiers from surrendering and surviving to return home in WW2, the future people would have to ensure that Guy got shot on the first day. Quote:
Where is the actual quote that indicates that anyone in the Anti SOS actually went out and tried to kill time travel kid?
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2009-05-01, 16:57 | Link #1935 | |||
Sasaki-ist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 37
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And you missed the point I was trying to make about the spread of information that would be inconvenient to the time travelers. If the spread of the information about the future amongst present-time allies would be inconvenient for the time travelers, it must be because said allies would try to change the future. Which they would only try if the future the time travelers are trying to bring about is not the desired future of their present-time allies. You cannot trust a time traveler who won't tell you what their time is like. |
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2009-05-01, 17:19 | Link #1936 | |
Kneel Before Your King!
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2009-05-01, 20:00 | Link #1937 | ||
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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If you ask me, I wouldn't TRUST a time-traveler who seemed hell bent on being helpful and don't give a damn about the consequences of each and every action he or she take. Mikuru-chan, as an under-qualified young kid, is already pushing believability until we realize she is only here to maintain a stable time loop of her own; that is, adult Mikuru was an important time traveler because of her past with Haruhi, hence the inexperienced young Mikuru was deliberately sent on a task she was ill prepared for. Quote:
Killing Kyon, of course, means they have to kill Yuki too. But by having a deity Sasaki on their side, it should be easy... Too easy. Before you know it, entire populations of people get wiped out from causality.
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Last edited by Vallen Chaos Valiant; 2009-05-01 at 20:22. |
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2009-05-01, 20:51 | Link #1938 |
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
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...This is kinda heavy on conjecture. Really self righteous conjecture.
You realize of course, that they probably aren't going to try to kill Kyon or Haruhi. Given that Sasaki probably wouldn't like that and in this scenario she's just been elevated to not just god hood, but conscious godhood?
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2009-05-01, 21:49 | Link #1939 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Seriously, the Anti-SOS-dan are not nice people. They have demands. They are not together because they are friends, like what the SOS-dan is now, they are together for convenience. Sasaki is chosen because she is either easily manipulated, or don't care what they do. Either way, Sasaki is NOT going to be a leader if she gets godhood.
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2009-05-01, 22:22 | Link #1940 | |||
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
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The only person in the series of any importance/power who we can be sure of being "good" are Haruhi and Kyon.
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Tags |
shounen, sneaker bunko, seinen, light novels, manga |
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