Medaka Box [Manga]

[Soji]

Originally Posted by Lummie

I don't know why you guys are already assuming it's Zen's dad. It's empty logic with too many flaws. If it really was the case, then Hitomi-sensei's attitude towards Medaka would have been completely different, if he was the person who was supposedly "killed" by Medaka.

True you are right .. but there is always the possibility that she not knowing who killed her husband. (Obviously, if the father = Zen father theorie become true).
And if the father of Zen is died.
More than anything we're trying to figure out who that person is and why Najimi said that especially Zen not need to know about this.

[summers]

When medaka says its would be interesting to have him as an enemy it does sound cold but thats just how she talks, she thinks this is helping him grow, when she re-calculated she thought this is a good chance to make him my enemy so he can grow and Najimu is planning this anyways so why not.

The Reality that she doesn't understand is that Zen disturbs her pattern, many who calls themselves her ally or friends was her enemy,Just look at who makes up the student council. But Zen has been supporting her from the start, she never reformed him, it was the other way around. She thinks shes helping Zen, but she is going out of her way to turn allies into enemy's, she is uncomfortable being around someone who is with her who she never had to convince.

[Lummie]

Originally Posted by Soji

True you are right .. but there is always the possibility that she not knowing who killed her husband. (Obviously, if the father = Zen father theorie become true).
And if the father of Zen is died.
More than anything we're trying to figure out who that person is and why Najimi said that especially Zen not need to know about this.

That adds another layer of why it shouldn't be Zen's dad. Her goal was to set up a conflict between Zen and Medaka, right? If the victim in this case, was truly Zen's dad, then why would she keep such a crucial card a secret? She'd be able to speed up the process way faster, even now when Zen's ties are slowly breaking and she could use it to increase his motivation to defeat Medaka. Yet, she keeps it a secret.

[Soji]

Originally Posted by Lummie

That adds another layer of why it shouldn't be Zen's dad. Her goal was to set up a conflict between Zen and Medaka, right? If the victim in this case, was truly Zen's dad, then why would she keep such a crucial card a secret? She'd be able to speed up the process way faster, even now when Zen's ties are slowly breaking and she could use it to increase his motivation to defeat Medaka. Yet, she keeps it a secret.

This is just my idea so I could totally be wrong.....Zen has agreed to participate in the flank plan to return to be special in medaka eyes right?
So a similar disclosure could destroy his motivation plus Najimi wants to create a Mc / hero without flaw.
But with this information Zen probably would have a desire for revenge and would be counter productive to Najimi such a thing.
Or at least that's what I think.

[zeando]

what if instead "father" is a metaphor for "someone crucial in medaka's growth" ?
and "kill" it's something more like "Obi: darth vader killer your father, luke" ?
so "medaka killed her father" may mean "medaka modified the original ideals of zen"
this is veery far fetched , but i can't avoid looking for metaphors in this manga xD

[Used Can]

I was just checking those sound manga (?)... uhh.. whatever they are called in which they have manga pages be read by VAs. Anyhow, Medaka's VA was amazingly fitting, but.... Hiroshi Kamiya for Zen? Am I the only one who thinks he should be Kumagawa's VA? It's like... he was born to voice Kuma. Zen should be voiced, in my opinion, by someone with a slightly rough voice.

Originally Posted by Lummie

That adds another layer of why it shouldn't be Zen's dad. Her goal was to set up a conflict between Zen and Medaka, right? If the victim in this case, was truly Zen's dad, then why would she keep such a crucial card a secret? She'd be able to speed up the process way faster, even now when Zen's ties are slowly breaking and she could use it to increase his motivation to defeat Medaka. Yet, she keeps it a secret.

It depends on how you see it. Ajimu doesn't want Zen to give up on Medaka. She wants there to be conflict between them, but not enmity. If Medaka did kill his father, then chances are good Zen will give up on her.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Er, no? *snip*

It was. Compare them to all the other opponents who reformed when they had to. Those three were they only ones who never did until Medaka was either to beat them to death or she was actually doing it. Well, Unzen is an exception since he was going to let her kill him, but she was stopped by Zen and Co.

As for them having fun in the Medatrial, sure they did but it was the usual thing. Now tell me, when has Medaka tried to have a casual relationship with someone like the relationship Zen and Shiranui have? Notice that between those two, there's no need for challenges. They simply accept each other as they are, have fun together and they're okay if they're in opposite bands because they do try to understand each other. However, all over the most, they talk things out. Always.
I also think it's been clearly hinted Medaka is jealous of the type of relationship those two have (or it could be she simply didn't like Zen being close with other girls - well, it could be either, or it could be both).

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

If you actually think that none of Medaka's actions are selfish*snip*

Some of her actions have definitely been selfish, but my impression is that most of those actions come from her almost single-minded pursue of her life objective.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I think you've also missed a huge factor in Medaka's "no one is special" *snip*

The problem is that's not what Kikaijima meant by using the term "special". She didn't mean it as in putting people in a pedestal or giving anyone special treatment, but by "special" she meant people that matter to you, who are important to you. That's why I mentioned family and friends, because those are not just "other people".

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Kikaijima doesn't put Medaka on a pedestal*snip*

As for Akune, not putting Medaka on a pedestal was*snip*

They do it. They never really question any of Medaka's actions. Also, when Medaka called Akune by his name, he took it as an honour. He's still putting her in a pedestal. As for Kikaijima, fun enough, the only time she's actually questioned Medaka was when she started the whole issue with Zen.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

If Zenkichi can't see that his devotion/idealization of Medaka was itself part of the environment of fear and idolatry that she wished to escape, then he is deserving of what he got (and in truth, what he is receiving now is a lesson, not a punishment).

So, if Zen's "idolatry" of her annoyed her so much, why did she have him join the SC and kept him around for so long? Or, say, why didn't she confront him about it and tell him she didn't like it? Did a cat got her tongue? Notice that much of Zen's so called idolatry is him basically being in love with her. Other than that, we've seen in his internal dialogue he often questions Medaka's actions and he HAS stopped her when she has gone out of control as when it happened with Unzen or when she was turned evil and he has encouraged when she was losing heart. So, now that he acts bitchy ONCE, he deserves a "lesson"? Hahaha... Oh wow!

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Of course, because Medaka has never actually needed Zenkichi to be "strong".

Never? Really? I'm sure Kurokami Medaka II would like a word with ya.
Furthermore, remember Medaka couldn't fight against minuses, Zen had to fight Munakata and almost got killed. It was similar with Kumagawa when he had All Fiction. Oh, and the judo/karate club at the very beginning?

Zen felt he had to be strong because he knows they tend to meet strong people, and Medaka loves her challenges. Furthermore, it's been good for him to be as strong as he was, because he'd be otherwise dead by now. But notice, though, every single time he became stronger he did it on his own terms. He's never needed anyone to manipulate him into it.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Medaka did talk things out. *snip*

Are you serious, bro? Like... really? Medaka tried talking things out?
She approached Zen and told him he had lost after which Zen had an incorrect reaction. It was THEN when they needed to talk things out, not before when there was no apparent problem.

Honestly, when a friend of yours acts bitchy I seriously hope you don't think hitting and berating them is the proper course of action. If you seriously believe so, I won't push this topic any further.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Indeed, and what's wrong with finding value in the only bonds thus far available? One way devotion/idealization is not what you could call a bond.

See... this is one of the meta things I mentioned before. People tend to have a thing called ego. And thus, beating a person doesn't mean they'll be cool with you afterwards. In fact, it is very likely they'll dislike you and even avoid you. However, in this manga, as it is typically in most shōnen manga, might is right. So, Medaka hasn't had any problems so far and everything has turned out okay. If the author, despite some meta commentary here and there - from characters like Zen, Unzen and even Ajimu - decides to keep playing the shōnen gimmicks straight, then I'm arguing on no grounds, because ultimately, Medaka would be simply right. Mind you, I can easily picture an ending in which all of Medaka's rivals show up, defeat her and they're all close friends by the end. It could happen. To be honest, I really doubt Nisio will stray from the shōnen battle formula. But well, I can hope.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Nah, "proving himself to himself" was clearly not*snip*

It was, actually. Notice Zen never had any problems before. Remember the beginning of the FP arc with the door and codes? Zen couldn't do that, whilst Medaka and Kikaijima could and which Akune busted. Zen couldn't care less back then and tagged along. His problem started after he realised he was given Parasitic Eyes and that it wasn't some ability he had developed. It was a big problem for him, because it was a huge blow to what he had considered "Hitoyoshi Zenkichi" so far and his own ideals. If it was merely an issue of power, then I'm sure you'll agree with me he'd taken Parasitic Eyes as godsend.

In this case "proving himself to himself" is deeply intertwined with him remaining special to Medaka, because he'd prove he's still the same ol' Hitoyoshi Zenkichi and not something different now. Mind you, I'm not saying he was right. He was definitely acting illogically, but it's nothing weird when too many things were happening and he was trying to cope.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Communication is admittedly two way. I don't see why Medaka is supposedly the only one sober here, though*snip*

What? Have you read ch118? Medaka herself admitted she had planned this whole thing. Remember when Kikaijima mentioned Medaka's eyes after she hit Zen? She was planning this whole thing from back then. She's expected this whole thing dude.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Medaka is already a mountain to be surpassed.*snip*

I don't know about you mate, and this could clearly be a matter of opinions, but I don't think any person is a "mountain to be surpassed" unless they make themselves to play the role of one. The only "mountains to be surpassed" as far as I know are actual mountains and people's own mental limitations. If a person is amazingly good at anything, that's got nothing to do with you. Ultimately, as far as I'm concerned, that person is posing no limit to you, but you're the only one limiting yourself.

Also, how does Medaka not want to be worshipped when she's always attracting so much attention? When you're always flamboyant, right at almost everything you do - especially fixing other people - you'll obviously attract praise and worship, even though you may not want it. The moment she started seeing people as something to fix or to make happy, despite how noble it sounds, she's already creating that distance herself. No one needs her in order to be happy, no one needs her to put herself as some obstacle to overcome in order to become strong. Medaka's own actions have placed herself there.

[zeando]

^they're called vomic

[Soji]

Originally Posted by zeando

^they're called vomic

Since we are on the speech I never understood why they are called in this way.

[zeando]

i have no idea myself, but maybe it's a made up word from comic and something with a "v", maybe voice
but to me it resemble too much vomit every time i hear it... >.>

edit. yep, i was right (lal my memory sucks)

VOMIC（ヴォミック）は、集英社が運営するインターネットラジオサイト内の1コーナー。
「VOMIC」の名は、VOICE（ヴォイス）＋COMIC（コミック）から。

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/VOMIC

[Soji]

^thanks for the answer.
I was curious because I thought like you it reminded me too much the word vomit

[Shinn Kamiyra]

This theory about Medaka's "other" father being Zen's dad is interesting and all, but I'm still very interested in the idea that our supposedly righteous heroine has actually killed someone, regardless of who it is. I wonder if she actually remembers it...?

Regardless, Anshin'in is quite right in that killing a family member is one of the worst things a human being can do, and so I just can't wait to see how Zen responds to Medaka when he finds out. XD

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Used Can

It was. Compare them to all the other opponents who reformed when they had to. Those three were they only ones who never did until Medaka was either to beat them to death or she was actually doing it. Well, Unzen is an exception since he was going to let her kill him, but she was stopped by Zen and Co.

The point I was making actually is that almost none of the people Medaka fights actually "reform", in the sense of bending to Medaka's will. Unzen doesn't, Miyakonojou doesn't, and Kumagawa doesn't; they simply decide to temporarily accept their loss but promise that they will be back for more. In fighting against people, Medaka generally increases their desire and ability to stand against her. That's why I think you are totally off base in saying that Medaka lets people go after they "apologize".

Remember Medaka's fight with Kumagawa? Kumagawa was supported by numerous comrades/friends in the form of the members of Class Minus 13, but Medaka surpassed him because she was supported by, not only her own friends, but even her enemies--those people who showed up, saying, "The one who will defeat Kurokami Medaka is me."

As for them having fun in the Medatrial, sure they did but it was the usual thing. Now tell me, when has Medaka tried to have a casual relationship with someone like the relationship Zen and Shiranui have? Notice that between those two, there's no need for challenges. They simply accept each other as they are, have fun together and they're okay if they're in opposite bands because they do try to understand each other. However, all over the most, they talk things out. Always.
I also think it's been clearly hinted Medaka is jealous of the type of relationship those two have (or it could be she simply didn't like Zen being close with other girls - well, it could be either, or it could be both).

I wasn't talking about the Medatrial in general though, I was talking specifically about Medaka's interaction with Kumagawa. Kumagawa laughing at Medaka's Medakanmon and her smacking him for it was not about effort or improving themselves or challenges, it was just standard lighthearted teasing. And that's a friendly interchange that became possible because Kumagawa doesn't put Medaka on a pedestal (rather, Kumagawa does the opposite of putting Medaka on a pedestal--as Kumagawa's friendliness is part of him being the precise opposite of Medaka in that due to his weakness (contrast Medaka's strength) he is extremely easy-to-like and relatable (contrast Medaka's fear and awe)).

Medaka doesn't have any casual relationships simply because she isn't casual. I don't think you can actually say Zenkichi's relationship with Shiranui is about "understanding" anymore than his relationship with Medaka though. It's not that they "talk" to each other about stuff, it's more like they don't even care what the other does outside of their "casual" time together at all. Shiranui might be Zenkichi's best friend, but I honestly doubt if he understands or cares about anything about her further than "the person I hang around and eat with".

Is Medaka jealous of Shiranui? Hey, she might very well be! But who is the person responsible for the difference between how Zenkichi treats Medaka and Shiranui?

Some of her actions have definitely been selfish, but my impression is that most of those actions come from her almost single-minded pursue of her life objective.

And the point is that Medaka's life objective ultimately comes from a very simple and natural human desire--not to be alone. Medaka is not trying to force her ideals on anyone or anything, she's just looking for people to relate to her on a basic human level.

The problem is that's not what Kikaijima meant by using the term "special". She didn't mean it as in putting people in a pedestal or giving anyone special treatment, but by "special" she meant people that matter to you, who are important to you. That's why I mentioned family and friends, because those are not just "other people".

The problem is not the question Kikaijima asked. It is Medaka's answer that we are interpreting, and that means that it is what Medaka meant that we should care about. There's a very deliberate purpose in wording when someone chooses to say "There is no one special in the world" versus "There is no one special to me", don't you think? Medaka specifically admits that she is fond of Zenkichi, but in stating "there is no one special" she says that their relationship needs to go beyond the scope of simple preferences. Her familiarity and friendship with Zenkichi does not constitute a reason to treat him with any less impartiality than any other person. Frankly, the question of "should Medaka gone easier on Zenkichi after he challenged her than she normally would have, on the basis of their friendly past relationship", is a totally pointless one imo. Zenkichi had already disappointed her twice.

They do it. They never really question any of Medaka's actions. Also, when Medaka called Akune by his name, he took it as an honour. He's still putting her in a pedestal. As for Kikaijima, fun enough, the only time she's actually questioned Medaka was when she started the whole issue with Zen.

You don't understand what "putting someone on a pedestal" means. It means raising them above the status of a human. Raising the basic worth of their actions or reasoning above the basic worth of yourself. During the Treasure Hunt, Akune decided for the first time that winning for himself would be worth as much as seeing (or supporting) Medaka/anyone else's victory. He began valuing his own strength as much as he valued Medaka. There is nothing dishonourable about being acknowledged as worthy by another human you admire.

Kikaijima is a down to earth girl. She's not very flashy, but you'd be doing her a discredit if you said that she's also nothing more than a follower of Medaka. (Go reread the Kikaijima vs. Yukuhashi fight again. Here, I found the ch. number for you guys, ch. 47. If you still can't get what we are talking about regarding "putting Medaka on a pedestal" I think you might have some serious problems understanding the overall arc of Medaka's character development as the manga continues).

So, if Zen's "idolatry" of her annoyed her so much, why did she have him join the SC and kept him around for so long? Or, say, why didn't she confront him about it and tell him she didn't like it? Did a cat got her tongue? Notice that much of Zen's so called idolatry is him basically being in love with her. Other than that, we've seen in his internal dialogue he often questions Medaka's actions and he HAS stopped her when she has gone out of control as when it happened with Unzen or when she was turned evil and he has encouraged when she was losing heart. So, now that he acts bitchy ONCE, he deserves a "lesson"? Hahaha... Oh wow!

Medaka has never kept Zenkichi around for his "belief" or "protection" in/of her. She's kept him around because he's the foundation of her belief in having a place in the world. Zenkichi told her that she was able to help people, showed her how to make friends, and agreed with her that her existence wasn't "special" in the world. Zenkichi is essentially the foundation of what made Medaka remotely human. And that (being human) is what she wants.

Zenkichi has indeed helped Medaka out plenty of times, in pulling Medaka back from the verge of becoming a real monster when the frustration of what other people did or saw her as became simply too much for her. But the problem, and the irony is that Zenkichi doesn't not even see her as a real person himself in the first place. Zenkichi has saved Medaka from becoming feared, but he is an obstacle to saving her from being worshipped. Now that Medaka has gained a lot more control of her power, and has become more aware of her own status/place and identity, it is indeed high time for her to decide to knock the illusion Zen has of her off of its pedestal.

Never? Really? I'm sure Kurokami Medaka II would like a word with ya.
Furthermore, remember Medaka couldn't fight against minuses, Zen had to fight Munakata and almost got killed. It was similar with Kumagawa when he had All Fiction. Oh, and the judo/karate club at the very beginning?

Zen felt he had to be strong because he knows they tend to meet strong people, and Medaka loves her challenges. Furthermore, it's been good for him to be as strong as he was, because he'd be otherwise dead by now. But notice, though, every single time he became stronger he did it on his own terms. He's never needed anyone to manipulate him into it.

As I said, Zenkichi's main influence/help to Medaka has been his words. Whether it was Kumagawa or Munakata, Medaka would always have pulled back from actually harming other people with their mastered abilities so long as Zen was there to remind her what her real 'purpose' was. Sure, it's a good thing that Zenkichi was driven to become strong, but that's more for his own sake than any practical ability he's had in "protecting" Medaka. It's more than clear, and Ajimu has even said this explicitly in ch.117 while she was converting him, but Zenkichi's "protection" and "devotion" have never been things that Medaka has truly needed.

Are you serious, bro? Like... really? Medaka tried talking things out?
She approached Zen and told him he had lost after which Zen had an incorrect reaction. It was THEN when they needed to talk things out, not before when there was no apparent problem.

Honestly, when a friend of yours acts bitchy I seriously hope you don't think hitting and berating them is the proper course of action. If you seriously believe so, I won't push this topic any further.

Actually, it was clear from the atmosphere to everyone that Zenkichi had leaped way off the right path from the beginning. Medaka's casual encouragement and advice not to take it too badly was already an expression of trust and reconciliation.

See... this is one of the meta things I mentioned before. People tend to have a thing called ego. And thus, beating a person doesn't mean they'll be cool with you afterwards. In fact, it is very likely they'll dislike you and even avoid you. However, in this manga, as it is typically in most shōnen manga, might is right. So, Medaka hasn't had any problems so far and everything has turned out okay. If the author, despite some meta commentary here and there - from characters like Zen, Unzen and even Ajimu - decides to keep playing the shōnen gimmicks straight, then I'm arguing on no grounds, because ultimately, Medaka would be simply right. Mind you, I can easily picture an ending in which all of Medaka's rivals show up, defeat her and they're all close friends by the end. It could happen. To be honest, I really doubt Nisio will stray from the shōnen battle formula. But well, I can hope.

Where, exactly, have any of Medaka's enemies in this manga lost their "ego"? The only thing "meta" about this aspect of the series you bring up is that Medaka is simply so overpowered that her opponents generally give up directly getting back at her (at least for now). I think you're a bit off base with your assessment of Nishio's characteristic writing tendencies as you don't seem to be familiar with many of the major works he's done. None (or very few) of the people Medaka's beat are actually "cool" with her, they've simply raised their personal confidence/determination levels and are waiting for a great chance to get back at her. Well, after coming out of a fight with her alive, they are probably also less inclined to outright kill her if they indeed get the better of her. But y'know, Medaka's enemies still in many ways remain antagonistic to her. I don't think any of them end up "losing their egos" in the way that you are suggesting.

It was, actually. Notice Zen never had any problems before. Remember the beginning of the FP arc with the door and codes? Zen couldn't do that, whilst Medaka and Kikaijima could and which Akune busted. Zen couldn't care less back then and tagged along. His problem started after he realised he was given Parasitic Eyes and that it wasn't some ability he had developed. It was a big problem for him, because it was a huge blow to what he had considered "Hitoyoshi Zenkichi" so far and his own ideals. If it was merely an issue of power, then I'm sure you'll agree with me he'd taken Parasitic Eyes as godsend.

In this case "proving himself to himself" is deeply intertwined with him remaining special to Medaka, because he'd prove he's still the same ol' Hitoyoshi Zenkichi and not something different now. Mind you, I'm not saying he was right. He was definitely acting illogically, but it's nothing weird when too many things were happening and he was trying to cope.

Zenkichi did angst after having received Parasite Seeing. But that has nothing to do with refusing the aid of others. Simply not using the ability would be enough to "prove himself to himself" in that context. The real issue, I believe, in this specific case was the influx of people gathering around and becoming closer to Medaka. And this issue, although only fully aggravated most recently through Ajimu's manipulations, has been arising as recently as Kumagawa gaining the Vice President position and in truth can be seen going all the way back to Akune's introduction. It was not to "prove himself to himself", but rather "prove himself better than others", that Zenkichi refused to cooperate in the Treasure Hunt with absolutely anybody. In Zenkichi's mind, it's the "better than others" part that has become the key to remaining "special" to Medaka.

What? Have you read ch118? Medaka herself admitted she had planned this whole thing. Remember when Kikaijima mentioned Medaka's eyes after she hit Zen? She was planning this whole thing from back then. She's expected this whole thing dude.

Medaka's recalculating eyes happened after she hit Zen. Smacking him was just her immediate reaction. The offer/instruction to clean the Clock Tower basement was her resultant test. Had Zenkichi recapitulated (not for disobeying Medaka, keep in mind, but rather for being unwilling to accept his loss and accusing a fellow Council member), things would've been dandy, and Medaka would have taken back her negative reassessment of him. Remember her words? "What is it Zen? If you've already finished cleaning the Clock Tower, I might just praise you." It was only after Zenkichi revealed that he had abandoned that test and decided to go against her that Medaka formulated her plan to encourage Zenkichi's growth as her enemy.

I don't know about you mate, and this could clearly be a matter of opinions, but I don't think any person is a "mountain to be surpassed" unless they make themselves to play the role of one. The only "mountains to be surpassed" as far as I know are actual mountains and people's own mental limitations. If a person is amazingly good at anything, that's got nothing to do with you. Ultimately, as far as I'm concerned, that person is posing no limit to you, but you're the only one limiting yourself.

Also, how does Medaka not want to be worshipped when she's always attracting so much attention? When you're always flamboyant, right at almost everything you do - especially fixing other people - you'll obviously attract praise and worship, even though you may not want it. The moment she started seeing people as something to fix or to make happy, despite how noble it sounds, she's already creating that distance herself. No one needs her in order to be happy, no one needs her to put herself as some obstacle to overcome in order to become strong. Medaka's own actions have placed herself there.

This is where you need to focus on the meta aspects that Nisio is playing with. Medaka is not simply any other genius that a person could avoid, she is the perfect one who can surpass absolutely anything. It's not Medaka who's making the world revolve around herself--in fact, she was born with the world revolving around her. The world started revolving around Medaka from probably before she could even speak, which might've been something like "age: three days old" or something if I remember correctly. The unnatural way in which the world revolves around them is part of the fundamental "abnormal" concept Nishio introduced in the first place, and Medaka's status among even them has been reinforced by Najimu's "one in a thousand years" etc. talk. Medaka is not attracting attention to herself--from the beginning, the world has simply centered around her. Not trying to help/encourage people or create relationships by interacting with them would not in any way have saved Medaka from being seen as inhuman by others. It is only because Medaka was taught to care about other people's happiness, that she has had any chance at being human at all.

(Regarding "fixing", I request again that you re-examine your presumptions about this. Medaka has never decided that people are something she needs to fix. She has never tried to carry out any sort of correction (going back to the Unzen arc, this was precisely the difference between them). The only objective Medaka has ever adopted towards others is the desire to help make them happy. And in the end, you should also understand that Medaka has ultimately always left the question of "what makes me happy" to each person themself.)


edit:

Originally Posted by Shinn Kamiyra

This theory about Medaka's "other" father being Zen's dad is interesting and all, but I'm still very interested in the idea that our supposedly righteous heroine has actually killed someone, regardless of who it is. I wonder if she actually remembers it...?

Regardless, Anshin'in is quite right in that killing a family member is one of the worst things a human being can do, and so I just can't wait to see how Zen responds to Medaka when he finds out. XD

Well, y'know, now that you bring this up (whether and why Medaka might've actually killed somebody, and how that relates to Zen), this makes the fact that a Medaka from middle school was shown very interesting. If I remember right, middle school was when there was a period of time Medaka spent separate from Zenkichi. As such, if we take into consideration what I wrote above about Zenkichi's primary significance being in how he's the foundation of Medaka's decision not to kill people, there seems like there might be a very good reason for why Ajimu might not want Zen to know what Medaka experienced while he was away from her.

[Last Carpet]

The fight between Medaka and Zenkichi is inevitable

But I'm not sure who I want to win and why.

Medaka herself said that "Those who win are not strong. It is those who lose and crawl back up who are strong".What would someone who never loses know about it? It would be good for Medaka to get beaten at least once. Zen wants to teach her the meaning and, more importantly the value, of failure, and learning it would be good for Medaka

I want Zen to win, not just for him, but for her. (But yeah, mostly for him)

Ajimu said the most heroic one will win the fight.

Who is more heroic here....there are to many flaws for me to tell.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The point I was making actually is that almost none of the people Medaka fights actually "reform", in the sense of bending to Medaka's will. Unzen doesn't, Miyakonojou doesn't, and Kumagawa doesn't; they

Ur what? Kumagawa got whipped, the fact he cared enough to actually tell Zenkichi that he would get no support from class minus 13 means he doesn't truly plan to oppose Medaka in any way, not even passively.

[Sol Falling]

lol. Is Zenkichi supposed to become the poster child for opposition to Medaka, now? The people who will potentially support Zenkichi over Medaka are allies of Zenkichi, not enemies of Medaka. That's why the conflict is being looked at like an internal squabble. You can bet all of Medaka's actual enemies will be supporting her or, at worst, staying out of things.

Kumagawa's got a good thing going and is having fun in the Student Council, but you're just trying to piss yourself off if you think he's actually become some sort of loyal and supportive underling. Kumagawa's working with Medaka just as much to screw around with her as he is for himself. How do you take him not revealing the trainees' Not Equal statuses to the Student Council? And his recent happiness has itself been the key to the unsealing of Anshin'in's power, but does he look like he cares? If you can point out even one example of when Kumagawa has done something that Medaka has wanted, please go ahead.

[Takigashima]

Question: has Medaka realized herself that she has just made the one closest to her unhappy?
And that even if he does get stronger, but possibly loses. Does she seriously think he will be happy?

[evil|plushie]

question: Does medaka care?

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The point I was making actually is that almost none of the people Medaka fights actually "reform"*snip*

Most have actually reformed, and even the ones she ended up beating the shit out from, haven't remained antagonistic. I'll agree a good amount of the people that has fought Medaka remain rivals, but none of them are antagonistic. The example you gave with Kumagawa is actually perfect. However, even the biggest baddies ended up reformed. Miyakonojou hasn't kept up with the FP after he apologised. Unzen hasn't kept forcing his justice. You may be right about Kuma since he can be unpredictable, but he doesn't seem to have any plans of screwing with Medaka any more.

Also, I never meant Medaka bends other people to her will as if they become her dogs, but that after they're defeated they end up with the purpose "beat Kurokami Medaka". That's what I meant by her becoming central to them.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I wasn't talking about the Medatrial in general *snip*

That's nothing that hadn't happened before, though. Back in during the challenges arc, when Zen told Shiranui he loved her she hit him. Or when Maguro hugged her and Naze and they hit him. Or the times Medaka tried to wear an apron like Naze or bloomers and everyone thought it didn't suit her. So, her interaction with Kumagawa isn't really anything new.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Medaka doesn't have any casual relationships simply because she isn't casual.*snip*

But that's precisely the problem here. Normal friendships on equal grounds, which is what you say Medaka wants, are casual. As for Zen and Shiranui it's not that they don't care what the other does. Notice Zen got seriously worried when he thought Shiranui was forced into Kumagawa's group, but after she told him she did it out of her own will he was okay with that, because that's a relationship based on trust, and I don't think you cannot trust other person if you don't understand them and you cannot understand other people if you don't communicate - which was exactly what Zen did with Shiranui.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Is Medaka jealous of Shiranui? Hey, she might very well be! But who is the person responsible for the difference between how Zenkichi treats Medaka and Shiranui?

Zen and Medaka for the type of relationship they've built, of course.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

And the point is that Medaka's life objective ultimately comes from a very simple and natural human desire--not to be alone. Medaka is not trying to force her ideals on anyone or anything, she's just looking for people to relate to her on a basic human level.

Actually, not wanting to be alone is something that came later. Remember when Zen suggested Medaka's purpose was to make people happy she was broken, because Kuma had told her there was no purpose to living. And even before that Medaka had become ostracised by those old people after showing her abilities. Now, she's no longer ostracised by people but praised for her heroic actions.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The problem is not the question Kikaijima asked. It is Medaka's answer that we are interpreting, and that means that it is what Medaka meant that we should care about*snip*

Now Zenkichi challenged her... When did that happen? Zen went there, told her she was wrong and why he thought so. Then he turned his back and Medaka took that as a challenge, to which Zen's reaction was she didn't take anything in of what he had just said. Then, after she wiped the floor with Zen and left, Kikaijima told her she had overdone things and that she should go back an apologise, reminding her Zenkichi is an important person to her. Notice that in Kikaijima's working there's no implication Zenkichi should receive any special treatment, but she clearly said that what Medaka had done wasn't correct and that she should apologise. Then Medaka replied there were no such thing as special people in this world, which if we're going to look it in terms of "giving people special favours" make no sense as a reply considering what Kakaijima had just told her, and it is right after Medaka said this and explained her new mode that Kikaijima thought Medaka doesn't understand other people.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

You don't understand what "putting someone on a pedestal" means.*snip*

I think your definition is a bit extreme. Putting something on a pedestal means to have something elevated to a position of honour or reverence. Also, I never said Akune didn't learn he shouldn't look down on his own desires. However, that doesn't stop him from idealising Medaka. He didn't simply refer it as being honoured by being called by his name, he called it a privilege.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Kikaijima is a down to earth girl. She's not very flashy, but you'd be doing her a discredit if you said that she's also nothing more than a follower of Medaka.

I'm not trying to discredit her. In fact, in my previous post I actually gave her a lot of credit, since she's one of the few who's actually questioned Medaka. No, in fact, she even told her in ch118 that she was wrong in her actions. But that's all she did. She limited to say Medaka was wrong and kept following her even though her mind hadn't changed.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Medaka has never kept Zenkichi around for his "belief" or "protection" in/of her. *snip*

I don't disagree with the idea of Zen stopping worshipping Medaka. That's something I said I wanted him to do in the very first post ever since we started this discussion. However, here's the thing I keep repeating over and over again, why not simply talk things over? That's what person in real, functioning relationships do. No one needs to be taught lessons. In fact, failing to resort to actual communication and feeling that "you have to teach someone else a lesson," isn't that a form of arrogance?

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

As I said, Zenkichi's main influence/help to Medaka has been his words.*snip*

That's wrong, though. Remember, the reason Zen fought Munakata was precisely because it was extremely dangerous for Medaka to absorb his minus. So, Zen took up the fight. It was the same against Medaka II. Whilst it was ultimately Zen's words and actions what changed her, he needed to be strong enough to stand up to her and be able to defend himself, otherwise, he'd never have been able to make his words reach her.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Actually, it was clear from the atmosphere to everyone that Zenkichi had leaped way off the right path from the beginning. Medaka's casual encouragement and advice not to take it too badly was already an expression of trust and reconciliation.

Pffft... What? Does this look like the kind of atmosphere you talk about? They were surprised he was still unable to finish the puzzle. That's it. There was nothing clear about his state of mind until Medaka tried to cheer him up.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Where, exactly, have any of Medaka's enemies in this manga lost their "ego"? The only thing "meta" about this aspect of the series you bring up is that Medaka is simply so overpowered that her opponents generally give up directly getting back at her (at least for now).

I do think the story thus far proves me correct, though. None of these past enemies has shown up to have revenge or has shown hatred toward Medaka. In fact, by far, the vast majority have become friendly rivals. Hell, Unzen cooperated in the Treasure Hunt and Kumagawa is currently in the Student Council. And those were two of her most complicated enemies.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Zenkichi did angst after having received Parasite Seeing. But that has nothing to do with refusing the aid of others. Simply not using the ability would be enough to "prove himself to himself" in that context.*snip*

It actually does. Zen's problems go back before the Treasure Hunt. It's painted clearly in his interview to Yojirou. This is why I keep saying he's trying to prove himself to himself. This has got little to do with the other girls. They were just the final straw.

Once again, I don't think he was right. He was clearly being illogical in thinking Parasite Eyes suddenly turned his lives hard work into nothing. But it particularly because of him acting like that that I think Medaka really had to talk to him.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Medaka's recalculating eyes happened after she hit Zen.

No, lol. Look, she had those eyes BEFORE hitting Zen, during hitting Zen and after. Then, after she beat his life out of him she told Kakaijima she had been taunting him more than necessary. So... yeah...

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

This is where you need to focus on the meta aspects that Nisio is playing with. Medaka is not simply any other genius that a person could avoid, she is the perfect one who can surpass absolutely anything.*split*

Those aren't meta aspects, though. Also, I disagree on the whole world revolving around Medaka. For example, a genius is only praised when he plays the role of a genius. Also a genius is not merely a genius just for having a high IQ. That's merely potential. A genius is considered one because of his actions. No matter how much raw potential a person may have, ultimately, all comes down to the actions they take. Even if you have a extremely high IQ, or high potential for sports or whatever, if you do nothing with them then you'll simply never receive the praise a genius receives. At worst, you'll be called wasted potential and that's it.

Also, remember, Medaka isn't praised merely for her abilities. Zen has already explained that much. Only beasts take Medaka's potential into consideration. People, on the other hand, worship her because of her personality. And so, when Medaka has decided to play the role of something that is pretty much a hero, she's quite likely to be worshipped. Especially when she plays the role of a hero that is highly talented and who's almost always right.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Regarding "fixing", I request again that you re-examine your presumptions about this.*snip*

I disagree. Notice how Medaka is constantly talking about having people set on the right path. That's pretty much fixing. Also, the whole thing about trying to make people happy is again something unnecessary, especially if she wants to be treated normally. It'd be okay if she was acting normally and just giving some aid here and there like... say... Doctor Tenma in Monster. However, Medaka always end up making a display of her prowess which ultimately brings all that undesired worship.

Anyhow, I really feel we're going on circles. So, I think I'll leave the discussion here. I guess by now we've fully exposed our points of view, since currently we've basically kept on repeating them over and over. Thus, I think I'll simply wait and see how the plot unfolds to see who has the more accurate views on these matters. Anyhow, it was fun.

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by Takigashima

Question: has Medaka realized herself that she has just made the one closest to her unhappy?
And that even if he does get stronger, but possibly loses. Does she seriously think he will be happy?

Medaka can't understand people feeling that's why she's dangerous and scary.

[ziggi92]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling
This is where you need to focus on the meta aspects that Nisio is playing with. Medaka is not simply any other genius that a person could avoid, she is the perfect one who can surpass absolutely anything. It's not Medaka who's making the world revolve around herself--in fact, she was born with the world revolving around her.

That means that Medaka will win the fight against Zenkichi since she is the perfect one so how can
Zenkichi become strong than the perfect one & can flask plan make something which better than perfect.
What interest about Zenkichi is the mystery surrounding him like
relationship with Ajimu in middle school how he cannot remember anything for that also Medaka why Zenkichi was not with Medaka in Middle school both time when she went mad first one was when Zenkichi was going to beat Akune and also when Medaka attacked Kumagawa when he killed the vice president how looks like Ajimu which means that he was
also part of that attack.
Then second mystery is his connection with flask plan
It cannot be coincidence that he was chosen as perfect for that plan since has been indirectly
part of it when he was with his mother in hospital where she was studying abnormal & Minus for flask plan so it can be that they were also researching on him.
Then there is third mystery what Zenkichi is, an abnormal,minus or not equal:

Zenkichi is introduced as a Normal, a human lacking any special abillity. He is neither a genius nor does he appear to have any Abnormalities. After obtaining the Abnormality Parasite Seeing however, both Zenkichi and Ajimu state that he can no longer be categorized as a Normal, having now obtained an ability, even if it is not originally his own. Whether this means Zenkichi is now an Abnormal, Minus, or Not Equal, is still unknown.
taking from :
http://medakabox.wikia.com/wiki/Zenkichi_Hitoyoshi