[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Cao Ni Ma]

I have a vague memory of sleeping (or headache) pills being mentioned in ep3 but it was actually Natsuhi that was offering them. Was it for Rosa or Eva though? I also remember Maria throwing a fit to go see her flower and one of the adults mentioning something about giving her a sleeping pill to calm her down and Rosa claiming that she didnt have any.

I could be totally wrong since its been a long time since Ive read it.

[Kealym]

I doubt the need for Rosa's sedatives to come into play.

Kratsuhi had been portrayed as awake for over a day by the time they were killed.
Both parts of Kratsuhi are at least, or brushing up on 50 years old.
Eva is probably the most physically fit parent, and would've had adrenaline on her side.

Really, all you have to do is get the drop on one of them while dozing with a blow to the head or such, and then pounce onto the other. It was a long time before the kids announced George's absence - enough time to clean up blood, carry corpses? They were staked either by circumstance via Yasu, Eva had access to the stakes, or Tohya is occasionally just a crappy writer.

[Leafsnail]

Yeah, you're right. I guess someone skilled in mixed martial arts could probably deal with them unarmed pretty easily. But something about the way EVA-B phrased her objection to Battler's theory made me think there'd be a more substantial solution... eh.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Don't forget completely awesome Fantasy scenes.

Give Gohda a laser sword. Problem solved.

[rogerpepitone]

I think the sedatives may have come into play at the end of Episode 2:
- Battler is napping for a while on the 4th.
- Battler wakes up on his own on the 5th.
- Rosa makes dinner for Battler on the 5th.
- Battler is sleeping again around 7pm on the 5th.

By contrast, in Legend, Battler is up late on the 4th, gets woken up early on the 5th, and still manages to stay awake until midnight.

But what's the point? It breaks Rosa's alibi for those times and could be useful to explain the 4th-8th twilights except ... it's not necessary. Ryu has stated that Shannon managed to set up Natsuhi's room on her own. Nanjo & Kumasawa's even easier for her to set up.

[Renall]

"Why did Battler take a nap in ep2?" is one of my favorite questions that nobody but me seems to care about because it's a completely different behavior than in ep1 yet it seems to have no different causation. It's seemingly arbitrary, yet changes the entire scenario of the 4th.

[AuraTwilight]

Because Yasu said so. It's really not worth the trouble analyzing the causality of everything because realistically speaking everything should be the exact same in every Gameboard since there's no transtemporal agent like Rika.

[Bluemail]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Because Yasu said so. It's really not worth the trouble analyzing the causality of everything because realistically speaking everything should be the exact same in every Gameboard since there's no transtemporal agent like Rika.

Almost all your posts lately have been about "there's no point thinking about it", and it's starting to be kind of irritating. I don't understand how every Gameboard should be the same if we take the interpretation that they're stories. Of course there's only one truth inside the catbox, but the stories about it can differ. But you're partly right about the causality, as Yasu can indeed just say that Battler took a nap. That doesn't mean there can't be an intent behind it.

Renall, you're right about how removing Kanon and changing some things could make Umineko better. Someone should make an Umineko Director's Cut removing the "zero of the roulette".
I think the zero thing was also a hint towards Kanon's illusionary nature. I do like Jessica's character too, but she does become kind of pointless if there's no Kanon going around. It could be said that Natsuhi never got a child after all... More torment to Natsuhi!?
It would be interesting. We would need new characters to fill in some twilights, at least one more so Nanjo's murder scenario could work. Because only 4 people are supposed to be alive after 8th twilight. Removing Kanon and Jessica would make the number two people, so new characters are necessary unless the ending scenes were changed too. We might potentially lose Rosa Musou if Battler doesn't die before 9th twilight in EP2.

I wouldn't want to lose Jessica or Kanon though, so maybe the "additional scenes" approach would be good. More Kanon to EP7 and 8.

I'd want some clarification to how the Forgery Author Test works. So I write my current answer to each question and grade it to "answers". Are these answers given in the games or is there some kind of answer page to this test as well? Because aren't the interpretations of answers given in the game the current answers I have? So against what am I supposed to grade them? Or is it some kind of theory evolution thing where I write my current one and when I think of a new one put it under the previous one and see which one is more probable, potentially combining some elements of them?

[rogerpepitone]

The test is missing questions along the lines of "Who else is lying to support the killer?" and "Why is that person lying?"

[AuraTwilight]

Almost all your posts lately have been about "there's no point thinking about it", and it's starting to be kind of irritating.

Not really. Most of what you're referencing was directed onto a single specific discussion, which is valid discourse. People are getting obsessed with tangents that are dismissed in the work itself.

I don't understand how every Gameboard should be the same if we take the interpretation that they're stories. Of course there's only one truth inside the catbox, but the stories about it can differ. But you're partly right about the causality, as Yasu can indeed just say that Battler took a nap. That doesn't mean there can't be an intent behind it.

The point I'm trying to make is that, narratively speaking, there's no reason for things to be different. If this timeloop were actually happening and no one remembered it, things should go the same. But things are different AND THESE CHANGES ARE COMPLETELY ARBITRARY, happening only so things can go the way the author wants them to go. These worlds are fictions; they're not Butterfly-Effect causal branches where things are unexpectedly different because of little changes, they're different because God said so, and the justifications can only come after the fact of the writer's intent.

I'd want some clarification to how the Forgery Author Test works. So I write my current answer to each question and grade it to "answers". Are these answers given in the games or is there some kind of answer page to this test as well? Because aren't the interpretations of answers given in the game the current answers I have? So against what am I supposed to grade them? Or is it some kind of theory evolution thing where I write my current one and when I think of a new one put it under the previous one and see which one is more probable, potentially combining some elements of them?

The idea is that there is no answer sheet. You write your Forgery as a way of answering these questions. If your forgery has the 'feel' of a real Umineko story, you pass.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The idea is that there is no answer sheet. You write your Forgery as a way of answering these questions. If your forgery has the 'feel' of a real Umineko story, you pass.

Yes, that's pretty much the idea behind the test.
The basic approach is, you think back what your ideas were when you read the Episode and what your theories were back then (if you don't remember you could skip that part) and then you write your theories that you had after you finished Umineko in a second row. Then you grade both answers depending on how well they fit into the overall scheme you created.
Ryûkishi said it himself in the interview, it's great if you feel that there are things that are off. For him it's not about providing the perfect answer, but enjoying yourself in the same thing that all other forgery authors and meta characters in the story did...create a story that has the truth at it's core.
It's more like an invitation to a battle among fan authors...like we were the witch hunters in the When They Cry universe.

But Ryûkishi did imply that those questions are pivotal to the story.

[Kealym]

In response to Renall suggesting Kanon be cut - well, I can't disagree. When Clair's narrative ended at 1984 I was actually on Bern's side, despite her nasty bitchiness - I was eagerly awaiting to see how Kanon fit into this mindscrew spaghetti. Honestly, I read it as kind of a cop out. That, maybe, Shkanon had been the plan since the beginning, but later in the story Ryukishi changed his mind about some element of it, only to find he'd written himself too deep to just back out of it ?

Spoiler for Irrelevant "If I were writing this story" diatribe":

Random thought - Kanon is a separate person. Gender irrelevant. Has the hots for Jessica. Solves the epitaph after the '85 conference, finds gold, starts to believe him/herself really is the revived Beatrice, reinforced entirely coincidentally by Shannon maintaining her own night-time shenanigans, and doing small things for Kanon's benefit without admitting it. Plans to announce his/her headship in October 1986, Genji just kind of panics, and before Kanon can go all "suck it, bitches", to the Ushiromiya's with some ingot's, Shannon's letter happens first, and Kanon hangs back try and figure who else had found the gold.

tl:dr, Shannon and Kanon are physically different peeps. Both find the gold and start calling themselves Beatrice independently, and hatch different plots for the 86 conference. In R-Prime, Kanon confronts Shannon, and is relatively willing to give up the whole "Beatrice" thing for several billion yen and a hot girl, thus his "Grrr witches!" attitude. Furniture complex is either the weird genital situation or just severe self worth issues. Body always disappears because Shannon would rather confine him than kill him, writes Shkanontrice hints into the first two fictions because they were written after the incident, and Shannon decided to be a huge misleading troll. <_<

tl:dr again, there are two people seriously claiming to be Beatrice who aren't aware of one another.

Obviously that doesn't work for the story as it is, but, hey, the catbox is my fanfic oyster.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The point I'm trying to make is that, narratively speaking, there's no reason for things to be different. If this timeloop were actually happening and no one remembered it, things should go the same. But things are different AND THESE CHANGES ARE COMPLETELY ARBITRARY, happening only so things can go the way the author wants them to go. These worlds are fictions; they're not Butterfly-Effect causal branches where things are unexpectedly different because of little changes, they're different because God said so, and the justifications can only come after the fact of the writer's intent.

The main reason it's so odd is that Battler's sleep schedule in ep2 is rather markedly different than it is in any other episode. He takes a seemingly longish nap on the 4th (from the late morning/early afternoon until around the time of Maria's meeting with Beatrice), goes to bed normally that same night, and winds up sleeping again on the 5th.

It's just weird. If it's authorial fiat it's remarkably hamfisted ("Oh, yeah, Battler's just inexplicably really tired" having slept 15 hours out of the past 24). If it's a clue, it never seems to be followed up on. We know there exist sedatives, but not that they were ever used or why anyone would use them on Battler on the 4th (and why they wouldn't have done so in any other episode).

Just bugs the hell outta me.

[Leafsnail]

I'm pretty sure Rosa is doing something in episode 2. Investigating, maybe, and knocking Battler out so she can do it in peace. Or leaving him alone and asleep as bait to trap the killer (which of course doesn't work since Yasu never kills Battler). Or is playing the detective as part of a fake twilight plot I dunno.

[AuraTwilight]

Btw Kealyn's idea is fucking awesome and someone needs to write a fanfic with that premise immediately.

[FirstTwilight]

I still think Kanon is important, maybe not as a character, but as a piece of the whole thing.

He reinforced the idea of genderless Beatrice and he was an important clue about Yasu's problem. (granted, many people ignored Shkanon because it was silly and Shannon and Kanon problems because they were boring, so it's kinda pointless )

He makes Clair dilemma much more meaningful, instead of a girl that can't chose between two lovers you got a genderless boy/girl with a complex dilemma about her body, identity and fate...


Also, without Shkanon ep VII and ep IV final duels lose their meaning. Beatrice wanted Battler to solved her, to discover the truth about her heart, Shkanontrice, that is required to solve Umineko. Without Shkanon this can't happen.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I'm pretty sure Rosa is doing something in episode 2. Investigating, maybe, and knocking Battler out so she can do it in peace. Or leaving him alone and asleep as bait to trap the killer (which of course doesn't work since Yasu never kills Battler). Or is playing the detective as part of a fake twilight plot I dunno.

That makes sense on the 5th. On the 4th, Battler's just taking a post-lunch nap or something. The adults haven't even gotten all pissy over the inheritance. Of all the people you could drug right now, Battler ain't one of them.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Btw Kealyn's idea is fucking awesome and someone needs to write a fanfic with that premise immediately.

It certainly would've been a shocking Shkanon variant. "Shannon and Kanon are both Beatrice, but they aren't each other." Not as funny as "everyone is Beatrice" though.

Having said that, Kanon's pseudo-characterness does make him an interesting tool for mind-screwery. Still experimenting with that myself.

Originally Posted by FirstTwilight

He reinforced the idea of genderless Beatrice and he was an important clue about Yasu's problem. (granted, many people ignored Shkanon because it was silly and Shannon and Kanon problems because they were boring, so it's kinda pointless )

That problem doesn't really change without him. It takes some minor tinkering, but it winds up working out about the same.

He makes Clair dilemma much more meaningful, instead of a girl that can't chose between two lovers you got a genderless boy/girl with a complex dilemma about her body, identity and fate...

What exactly stops Beatrice/Yasu from having the same complex without introducing unnecessary and pointless characters?

Also, without Shkanon ep VII and ep IV final duels lose their meaning. Beatrice wanted Battler to solved her, to discover the truth about her heart, Shkanontrice, that is required to solve Umineko. Without Shkanon this can't happen.

Except it's not required to solve Umineko and doesn't solve it, in the sense that it actually answers anything. It's not even a particularly good distraction since one way or the other you assume there's an unseen person "behind" the appearances of the characters. At best, Kanon is a minor fleshing-out of this concept (compared to Beatrice and Shannon, which are reasonably major ones); at worst, he gives us nothing we didn't already get from other characters. Pretty much his sole purpose was to be Shannon's foil, then he wasn't, then he was all trying to be himself, then whoops it turns out nothing about him matters in any important sense, let's talk more about Clair/Shannon/Yasu and literally mention Kanon in passing.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Renall

That makes sense on the 5th. On the 4th, Battler's just taking a post-lunch nap or something. The adults haven't even gotten all pissy over the inheritance. Of all the people you could drug right now, Battler ain't one of them.

Yeah, that's completely true. Uh... was there something that made him less inclined to hang out with the others after lunch?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

Yeah, that's completely true. Uh... was there something that made him less inclined to hang out with the others after lunch?

I don't think Battler even mentions lunch at the beach in anything more than passing, though I believe he still goes. I forget when he actually settles in to nap, but he wakes up after it's started raining.

[victorino123]

Originally Posted by Kealym

Spoiler for Irrelevant "If I were writing this story" diatribe":

Random thought - Kanon is a separate person. Gender irrelevant. Has the hots for Jessica. Solves the epitaph after the '85 conference, finds gold, starts to believe him/herself really is the revived Beatrice, reinforced entirely coincidentally by Shannon maintaining her own night-time shenanigans, and doing small things for Kanon's benefit without admitting it. Plans to announce his/her headship in October 1986, Genji just kind of panics, and before Kanon can go all "suck it, bitches", to the Ushiromiya's with some ingot's, Shannon's letter happens first, and Kanon hangs back try and figure who else had found the gold.

tl:dr, Shannon and Kanon are physically different peeps. Both find the gold and start calling themselves Beatrice independently, and hatch different plots for the 86 conference. In R-Prime, Kanon confronts Shannon, and is relatively willing to give up the whole "Beatrice" thing for several billion yen and a hot girl, thus his "Grrr witches!" attitude. Furniture complex is either the weird genital situation or just severe self worth issues. Body always disappears because Shannon would rather confine him than kill him, writes Shkanontrice hints into the first two fictions because they were written after the incident, and Shannon decided to be a huge misleading troll. <_<

tl:dr again, there are two people seriously claiming to be Beatrice who aren't aware of one another.

Obviously that doesn't work for the story as it is, but, hey, the catbox is my fanfic oyster.

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Why this doesn't work for the history? 'o' I think that theory is perfect lol