AnimeSuki Forums

Marion · 2009-11-12, 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

You fiends are trying to murder Beato just as heartlessly as Erika did!

fffffffffffffff

I lol'd.

Okay in EP 2 I understand she may not exist (Suit-Beato) because when she's introduced no one has died yet so her being an 18th person is impossible due to the red text. Maybe she was there at the end or a bit later, but then again Battler also saw golden butterflies and a living Kinzo so that scene alone is highly doubtful.

But in EP 4 nothing prevents a Beatrice separate from the 17 people, because when she's introduced it's implied people are already dead. The fact that Battler goes into the mansion then and sees the 6 twilight victims and Maria dead immediately after talking to the Suit-Beato means that they probably were dead for some time (at least the 6 people) thus letting a human Beato slip past the 17 people cut off.

It's not about shipping, it's about facts. There was no text saying Battler was clouded by darkness AND he even said that he didn't recognize Beato's voice on the other side when she talked with him.

Kitsu · 2009-11-12, 15:10

Quote:

By the way, who the hell would Battler end up with, assuming Beato isn't real? An incestuous pedophile with two underaged fangirls, with one being his half-sister and the other his cousin?

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I don't really care about who will Battler end up with you know...It's th last thing I would care about especially since I don't ship BxB at all and don't really handle it as canon anyway. Sorry. And even I am fine wiht ruining my ship in theories...Shipping is fun and stuff but if you want to argue and be objective than you cannot cling to yor ship so much.

Quote:

Battler saw her near the end of EP4, and I myself am surprised I am saying this, but I cannot wait for the anime's version to come out so people can stop saying "BUT IT WAS DARK AND FORGET ABOUT THE MOON AND THE LIGHTNING AND THAT PIECE-BATTLER SAW HER AND DESCRIBED SEEING HER CLEARLY, IT'S A SHAM!"

The peple will stay say that you know why? Because it will be like that in the anime version as well. Looking up to the third or second floor you are not able to see much details anyway and BAttler objectivity was badly influeced by Jessica's and kyrie's call so that he will be quick to assume "there is Beatrice live and in color!! It has to be Beatrice".

Quote:

Buuuut, that could simply mean killing her meta-self, aka the reason she made the game to begin with. Or by discovering the truth, by which point she was dead anyway.

Oh i think he means to kill her meta-self and with that the illusion of Beatrice

Quote:

So you don't think Beato is real simply because there's no proof that she exists?

Yeah, kinda. Something against that?

rogerpepitone · 2009-11-12, 15:17

Kaiba: Would Hideyoshi have kept playing along with the "fake bodies" scheme after there were several real corpses? (I think the fake murders would easily work in episode 4, and maybe episode 3.)

Any chance of a life double? (Example: X kills one of the residents Y before most of the people arrived on the island, and impersonates Y. After a little while, X lets Y's corpse be found and hides. Y is dead, and all corpses were identified correctly, and there were never more than 17 people on the island at a time, but there's still a free killer.)

Workworkwork · 2009-11-12, 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitsu

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.....
I don't really care about who will Battler end up with you know...It's th last thing I would care about especially since I don't ship BxB at all and don't really handle it as canon anyway. Sorry. And even I am fine wiht ruining my ship in theories...Shipping is fun and stuff but if you want to argue and be objective than you cannot cling to yor ship so much.

The peple will stay say that you know why? Because it will be like that in the anime version as well. Looking up to the third or second floor you are not able to see much details anyway and BAttler objectivity was badly influeced by Jessica's and kyrie's call so that he will be quick to assume "there is Beatrice live and in color!! It has to be Beatrice".

Oh i think he means to kill her meta-self and with that the illusion of Beatrice

Yeah, kinda. Something against that?

...So you're completely unwilling to even try to believe Beatrice exists? And you don't care about love, even though Battler himself said "Without love, the truth cannot be seen"? Romance is a factor in Umineko. Not as much as family bonds, but it's still an important factor.

Have you played EP5? Being objective does not mean rampaging about and crushing everything that isn't nailed down.

Jan-Poo · 2009-11-12, 15:36

Now now Work, I think maybe with some effort I can let pass most of your theory, but calling Battler a pedophile for loving someone who is 2 years younger (and 16 years old) is a total bullshit.

Anyway maybe I can think that Beatrice exists but I definitely won't accept that she is disguising as Kumasawa.

You'd have more chances if you tell me that she's disguising as Kanon.

Marion · 2009-11-12, 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Now now Work, I think maybe with some effort I can let pass most of your theory, but calling Battler a pedophile for loving someone who is 2 years younger (and 16 years old) is a total bullshit.

Anyway maybe I can think that Beatrice exists but I definitely won't accept that she is disguising as Kumasawa.

You'd have more chances if you tell me that she's disguising as Kanon.

If people were pedophiles for being in love with people a couple years younger than them then a LOT of people in the world would be considered pedophiles - especially people who are married but are sometimes decades apart.

Ithekro · 2009-11-12, 15:45

I think he meant Maria and Ange.

Jan-Poo · 2009-11-12, 16:07

Which is still preposterous, I've never seen anyone claiming that Beatrice is Ange or Maria

Marion · 2009-11-12, 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Which is still preposterous, I've never seen anyone claiming that Beatrice is Ange or Maria

Especially since Ange isn't even on the island during the game and Maria is too young and short to look like what Suit-Beato has been described as.

Ithekro · 2009-11-12, 16:17

He wasn't talking about Beatrice with that pedo comment. He was talking about Battler and how he come off so far. First his comment to Maria about waiting ten years and then telling him to "eat her", and then Ange's bro-con thing.

This, from what I can tell, is what Work is worked up about, because if anything other than Beatrice being real is true, his view is that from a shipping angle...only Maria and Ange are left for Battler.

That's not entirely true. Rosa is free.

Kaiba · 2009-11-12, 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

Beatrice IS one of the 17. She's just... in disguise as somebody for an unknown reason. Perhaps to do with Battler's sin. I'm talking about Piece-Beatrice. AKA Meta-Beatrices' piece. AKA the Blonde and Bouncy witch we know and love. Is that specific enough?

You fiends are trying to murder Beato just as heartlessly as Erika did!

But if Piece-Beatrice exists, than there are more than 17 people on the island, so that' s impossible.

Marion · 2009-11-12, 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaiba

But if Piece-Beatrice exists, than there are more than 17 people on the island, so that' s impossible.

This. Piece-Beato is only ever seen on a meta-level in some form. Now a real Beatrice outside of the 17 is a completely different thing.

Jan-Poo · 2009-11-12, 17:37

What about Shannon? He even had a crush on her.

Plus there is absolutely no reason to think Battler will end up with someone. We know Keiichi didn't, nor any of his friends for what matters.

Ithekro · 2009-11-12, 17:54

Ship defense would keep Shannon with George, Kanon with Jessica...the wives with their husbands, and then try to keep Beatrice with Battler. That's just how it works...which is also why it doesn't...since there should be no real world Beatrice via the red text, that doesn't damage one of these ships...aside from Rosa, Maria, or old lady Chiyo. And Rosa or Maria returns to incest taboo in some countries and Chiyo is rather too old for Battler since she's old enough to be his grandmother.

Thus, shipping clouds one's perceptions. While without love one cannot see, love alone will not find it.

Shamisen · 2009-11-12, 18:08

I'm finally gonna throw this out there. I've had this theory for a really long time, maybe even since EP 1 or 2 and it seems to have made the most sense to me on the relation of magic to the story and how it can be explained. I guess this was an obvious theory but I just wanted to be heard.

Not sure if anyone else has had this same theory but it's what I've been going with. It's long, so I'll keep it in spoiler tags.

Spoiler for Magic Theory:

What I think is "magic" in Umineko is possibly a big metaphor for the imagination. Going with that logic, it explains how magic can exist in some people and not in others. How reviving things with magic, is almost always temporary. How despite all these magical things happening around Battler, he can still deny it because of his narrower imagination (Although I think his imagination is bigger than he is letting on). This can also explain how "magic" cannot exist around people who completely disbelieve in it. These people have no imagination and therefore aren't affected by it. "All magic exists to bring happiness to the human world."

Someone had a theory on this with the case of Ange and Kasumi on the island. Even though she "believed" herself killing Kasumi and her bodyguards with the stakes, it can be said that in reality, Amakusa secretly sniped them from some far off position without them knowing.

Ange was a very lonely girl after being left alone without her family. A girl like that could easily develop a very powerful imagination. Thus, Ange became very powerful because she understood the truth about magic. Ange could still deny witches but still retain such powerful magic. In her world, she understood something and her magic became so powerful, she could pretty much anything. Perhaps this "truth" she understood was that it had no limits, as does the imagination have no limits. Therefore, her magic could do anything she wanted it to. To kill people, to revive people, to give things form that didn't exist before. Ange's imagination became a whole world. In her world, witches did not exist but magic still did. Her imagination could do anything. She didn't need to imagine herself a witch to be able to make these miracles. All she needed was her mind. Therefore, she could easily deny witches but still be able to do what she wants. Or perhaps she understood the love she held for her brother which helped her. Maybe only people with love can have such vivid imaginations. This is where that saying comes into play: "Love is the single element. Without love, one cannot see. But love alone will not find it. (There's more on Ange I'd like to talk about but I can't remember it at the moment and I can't check since I don't have the game installed at the moment. EP4 TIPS would help).

This might also be heavily implied when Maria becomes the With of Origins. How she can "give birth to 1 from the sea of zero." Giving life to a stuffed animal seems to be the work of the imagination of a child. Everyone in the real world just sees Maria simply making Sakutaro's voice. When he was destroyed, it was thought impossible to revive him since he had no form. Beatrice couldn't do it because perhaps her imagination wasn't strong enough but Ange was able to. How else could they explain something that was supposed to be impossible made possible?It lies within the limits of the imagination of one person. All Ange did was realize there was no true limit to it.

There's also Maria's belief that when her mother abuses her, it's simply the work of a "Black Witch." The black witch has many forms in Umineko but really it can simply be a personification of the evil we see in people. Rosa has that side of her, Eva had that side of her, as did Kasumi. Perhaps the black witch will take on a meta-form in a later EP besides looking like Eva-Beatrice.

There was also the hint of the Siestas being Maria's 4 porcelain rabbits. In EP 4, Rosa destroys one of the rabbits. Later, we discover that Siesta 556 was killed by a "Black Witch" who is heavily suggested to be Rosa. Siesta 556 coincidentally played a trumpet, just like the porcelain rabbit was shown to. Perhaps this holds true for the 7 stakes as well? Each represents one of the 7 deadly sins.

The story of Umineko always concludes with someone finding a piece of paper in a bottle. Perhaps everything that happens on this island was caused by a true culprit but in her eyes, it's something much, much more. Or to look at it another way, perhaps the letter was written by a mysterious other person on the island that we don't know about. The "true" Beatrice as it is her handwriting. Maybe Rosa didn't kill that Beatrice long ago and only thought she did. Perhaps Battler has the biggest imagination of all and simply doesn't want to accept it. In this manner, the true culprit could easily be accepted as a human.

Well, that's it for now. My theory supporting anti-fantasy. It mainly concerns Episodes 3 and 4. Maybe I'll add to it later on.

Jan-Poo · 2009-11-12, 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Thus, shipping clouds one's perceptions. While without love one cannot see, love alone will not find it.

I don't think this is the correct way to interpret "love" in umineko. It has nothing to do with romance. This is where english fails for having only one word to define a vast spectrum of affective relationships. In japanese a couple relationship would be called more properly "koi" while "ai" is a lot more generic.

Marion · 2009-11-12, 18:42

Spoiler for But Romance is a greater mystery:

Workworkwork · 2009-11-12, 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I don't think this is the correct way to interpret "love" in umineko. It has nothing to do with romance. This is where english fails for having only one word to define a vast spectrum of affective relationships. In japanese a couple relationship would be called more properly "koi" while "ai" is a lot more generic.

Like I said, romance is secondary to family, but it's still an important factor.

Spoiler for But I guess if you want to SINK SHIPS, here's the REAL Beatrice:

Neofio3 · 2009-11-12, 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

By the way, who the hell would Battler end up with, assuming Beato isn't real? An incestuous pedophile with two underaged fangirls, with one being his half-sister and the other his cousin?

The only pairing happening so far with Battler is meta-Battler, with meta-Beatrice. And both aren't real people so much as abstract concepts (especially with meta-Beatrice).

There's absolutely nothing icky about real-world Beatrice being related to Battler, if the shipping is occurring with meta-Battler and Beatrice. They're not the same people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Ship defense would keep Shannon with George, Kanon with Jessica...the wives with their husbands, and then try to keep Beatrice with Battler. That's just how it works...which is also why it doesn't...since there should be no real world Beatrice via the red text, that doesn't damage one of these ships...aside from Rosa, Maria, or old lady Chiyo. And Rosa or Maria returns to incest taboo in some countries and Chiyo is rather too old for Battler since she's old enough to be his grandmother.

Thus, shipping clouds one's perceptions. While without love one cannot see, love alone will not find it.

If anything, you can be sure a shipping arrangement is going to be destroyed at some point. Everything ending happily for all couples is extremely unlikely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

What about Shannon? He even had a crush on her.

Plus there is absolutely no reason to think Battler will end up with someone. We know Keiichi didn't, nor any of his friends for what matters.

What strikes me though with the difference in Umineko and Higurashi are the age of their players. It would make sense that no pairings would take place in Higurashi - the players are children, all too young, emotionally inexperienced. Even if one of them paired up, there's no guarantee its not teenaged hormones or whatever. Who ever bets on the couple in a high school romance ever ending up for good in the future?

In Umineko, its different. The players are old enough to deal with love in a mature manner. George can propose to Shannon, and have it seen as an adult act. Battler is a "man" much more than a boy (as are just about all the cousins really, save Maria). The parents are adults and have consummated romance already. So romance is definitely a factor in Umineko, much moreso than in Higurashi.

Jan-Poo · 2009-11-12, 22:54

Are you really sure they are children? I always thought Mion/Shion were 18 and Keiichi and Rena 17.

2009-11-12, 15:36	Link #3145
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Now now Work, I think maybe with some effort I can let pass most of your theory, but calling Battler a pedophile for loving someone who is 2 years younger (and 16 years old) is a total bullshit. Anyway maybe I can think that Beatrice exists but I definitely won't accept that she is disguising as Kumasawa. You'd have more chances if you tell me that she's disguising as Kanon. __________________

2009-11-12, 15:45	Link #3147
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	I think he meant Maria and Ange. __________________

2009-11-12, 16:07	Link #3148
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Which is still preposterous, I've never seen anyone claiming that Beatrice is Ange or Maria __________________

2009-11-12, 16:17	Link #3150
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	He wasn't talking about Beatrice with that pedo comment. He was talking about Battler and how he come off so far. First his comment to Maria about waiting ten years and then telling him to "eat her", and then Ange's bro-con thing. This, from what I can tell, is what Work is worked up about, because if anything other than Beatrice being real is true, his view is that from a shipping angle...only Maria and Ange are left for Battler. That's not entirely true. Rosa is free. __________________

2009-11-12, 17:37	Link #3153
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	What about Shannon? He even had a crush on her. Plus there is absolutely no reason to think Battler will end up with someone. We know Keiichi didn't, nor any of his friends for what matters. __________________

2009-11-12, 15:17	Link #3143
rogerpepitone Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	Kaiba: Would Hideyoshi have kept playing along with the "fake bodies" scheme after there were several real corpses? (I think the fake murders would easily work in episode 4, and maybe episode 3.) Any chance of a life double? (Example: X kills one of the residents Y before most of the people arrived on the island, and impersonates Y. After a little while, X lets Y's corpse be found and hides. Y is dead, and all corpses were identified correctly, and there were never more than 17 people on the island at a time, but there's still a free killer.)

2009-11-12, 17:54	Link #3154
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Ship defense would keep Shannon with George, Kanon with Jessica...the wives with their husbands, and then try to keep Beatrice with Battler. That's just how it works...which is also why it doesn't...since there should be no real world Beatrice via the red text, that doesn't damage one of these ships...aside from Rosa, Maria, or old lady Chiyo. And Rosa or Maria returns to incest taboo in some countries and Chiyo is rather too old for Battler since she's old enough to be his grandmother. Thus, shipping clouds one's perceptions. While without love one cannot see, love alone will not find it. __________________

2009-11-12, 18:08	Link #3155
Shamisen Talking Cat Join Date: Sep 2006	Also, I haven't read EP 5 yet. I'm finally gonna throw this out there. I've had this theory for a really long time, maybe even since EP 1 or 2 and it seems to have made the most sense to me on the relation of magic to the story and how it can be explained. I guess this was an obvious theory but I just wanted to be heard. Not sure if anyone else has had this same theory but it's what I've been going with. It's long, so I'll keep it in spoiler tags. Spoiler for Magic Theory: What I think is "magic" in Umineko is possibly a big metaphor for the imagination. Going with that logic, it explains how magic can exist in some people and not in others. How reviving things with magic, is almost always temporary. How despite all these magical things happening around Battler, he can still deny it because of his narrower imagination (Although I think his imagination is bigger than he is letting on). This can also explain how "magic" cannot exist around people who completely disbelieve in it. These people have no imagination and therefore aren't affected by it. "All magic exists to bring happiness to the human world." Someone had a theory on this with the case of Ange and Kasumi on the island. Even though she "believed" herself killing Kasumi and her bodyguards with the stakes, it can be said that in reality, Amakusa secretly sniped them from some far off position without them knowing. Ange was a very lonely girl after being left alone without her family. A girl like that could easily develop a very powerful imagination. Thus, Ange became very powerful because she understood the truth about magic. Ange could still deny witches but still retain such powerful magic. In her world, she understood something and her magic became so powerful, she could pretty much anything. Perhaps this "truth" she understood was that it had no limits, as does the imagination have no limits. Therefore, her magic could do anything she wanted it to. To kill people, to revive people, to give things form that didn't exist before. Ange's imagination became a whole world. In her world, witches did not exist but magic still did. Her imagination could do anything. She didn't need to imagine herself a witch to be able to make these miracles. All she needed was her mind. Therefore, she could easily deny witches but still be able to do what she wants. Or perhaps she understood the love she held for her brother which helped her. Maybe only people with love can have such vivid imaginations. This is where that saying comes into play: "Love is the single element. Without love, one cannot see. But love alone will not find it. (There's more on Ange I'd like to talk about but I can't remember it at the moment and I can't check since I don't have the game installed at the moment. EP4 TIPS would help). This might also be heavily implied when Maria becomes the With of Origins. How she can "give birth to 1 from the sea of zero." Giving life to a stuffed animal seems to be the work of the imagination of a child. Everyone in the real world just sees Maria simply making Sakutaro's voice. When he was destroyed, it was thought impossible to revive him since he had no form. Beatrice couldn't do it because perhaps her imagination wasn't strong enough but Ange was able to. How else could they explain something that was supposed to be impossible made possible?It lies within the limits of the imagination of one person. All Ange did was realize there was no true limit to it. There's also Maria's belief that when her mother abuses her, it's simply the work of a "Black Witch." The black witch has many forms in Umineko but really it can simply be a personification of the evil we see in people. Rosa has that side of her, Eva had that side of her, as did Kasumi. Perhaps the black witch will take on a meta-form in a later EP besides looking like Eva-Beatrice. There was also the hint of the Siestas being Maria's 4 porcelain rabbits. In EP 4, Rosa destroys one of the rabbits. Later, we discover that Siesta 556 was killed by a "Black Witch" who is heavily suggested to be Rosa. Siesta 556 coincidentally played a trumpet, just like the porcelain rabbit was shown to. Perhaps this holds true for the 7 stakes as well? Each represents one of the 7 deadly sins. The story of Umineko always concludes with someone finding a piece of paper in a bottle. Perhaps everything that happens on this island was caused by a true culprit but in her eyes, it's something much, much more. Or to look at it another way, perhaps the letter was written by a mysterious other person on the island that we don't know about. The "true" Beatrice as it is her handwriting. Maybe Rosa didn't kill that Beatrice long ago and only thought she did. Perhaps Battler has the biggest imagination of all and simply doesn't want to accept it. In this manner, the true culprit could easily be accepted as a human. Well, that's it for now. My theory supporting anti-fantasy. It mainly concerns Episodes 3 and 4. Maybe I'll add to it later on. Last edited by Shamisen; 2009-11-12 at 18:26.

2009-11-12, 18:42	Link #3157
Marion The Great Dine Join Date: Feb 2009	Spoiler for But Romance is a greater mystery:

2009-11-12, 22:54	Link #3160
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Are you really sure they are children? I always thought Mion/Shion were 18 and Keiichi and Rena 17. __________________