Attack on Titan - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[ZeMaverick]

I thought I'd throw my chip in and say what thought of...well...just a really long post about everything.

Anime- negative: despairing rage. All his past experiences have told him that the world is a cruel place, he needs to shed his black and white perspective of the world and kill humans as well. To kill a human he has to throw away his Human vs Titan mentality, whether or not this is the right thing to do.

He was always a psychopath in the first cour but he had begun to tame down in the second cour. Turns out being human was the wrong decision. He needs to be a monster to save humanity.

I read the manga but since I watch the anime first I can't really say what I thought of it. However, from what I got it was generally positive development.

Regardless, i thoroughly enjoyed the filler. I can understand people who don't want to consider the anime-original content canon but since apparently the studio admires Isayama and works closely with him to produce what's basically the complete version of his story, I'm happy to consider it canon.

Firstly, it gave more insight into the recon corps collectively. Erwin's multiple backup plans adds to his personality as that well-prepared and cautious leader. Hanji also reinforces the scary side of her personality with some FOR SCIENCE lines. Overall, it was just nice to see that humanities army were doing something, not just letting the main character 'shoulder it all'. Annoying that they died whilst Mikasa lived. Damn her for buying the Advanced Plot Armor Bundle. At least she technically 'died' twice fighting the female titan and they did show her struggling to right herself. Hopefully she forgets to pick up her blade...boxes(?) that fell off her (why are these things so big compared to the gas canisters?).

The chemistry between Armin and Jean is always nice to watch. I was so thankful Armin was there with Eren. If it was just Eren and Mikasa nothing would have ever been done. Only other person I wish was there was Reiner. I really liked the team he formed with Armin and Jean in episode 17. This was one of the big things missing in SnK, character interaction as character development. Many of the lines they say can be said by any other character without affecting anything. Honestly, I wouldn't have minded if the training arc went on for longer but I guess people would complain about slow pacing lol. Additionally I only really felt for Elad/Erd and Gunther shortly before they died as that was the one of the few times I saw their personality in what they were saying. I mean seriously, that table they sat at was practically the character development table. So much more could have been done with them literally just sitting there. I know its far fetched but i hope they do some filler to rectify the problem the show's had with character development. From what's I've seen of the 'filler', I trust them to do a good job.

But the best was Nile Dawk. I liked that man the moment I saw him. People think he's evil but from his stand point, he was making the right decision. He looked Eren straight in the face without animosity and told him to die for humanities sake. As the leader of the military police, he's primary concern is keeping the peace. Eren threatened that peace. From his POV it was the right decision to make. On top of that he was patriotic. When the supreme commander appeared he looked quite patriotic. This was reinforced this episode again. Damn Erwin and Levi for trying to act all badass and cool and not telling him what was happening. I would have pointed my gun at Erwin for not telling me anything. After all they are of the same rank, Erwin should stop acting all mysterious badass and cool and just tell him what's on. To me it was completely reasonable to point a gun and demand answers.

Finally, it was nice seeing how slack the MP are, letting the recon corps smuggle weapons in and just standing around instead of fighting. Jean made a nice call back to what he could have turned out to be.

Basically this episode everybody except Eren and Annie put in the best to make a very enjoyable watch. One thing though, i don't understand why Annie would chase Armin. She's been consistently portayed as being dead-set on hunting down and capturing Eren. That change didn't sit so well with me, especially since the anime team could have quite easily rectified that by having Jean pretend to be Eren again and Armin 'pretending' to distract so 'Eren' could escape.

[kitsunisan]

I think the reason there's such a debate over the length of time Eren takes to transform is there's people who really want ErenxAnnie and are attempting to make more of their relationship than is really there. Yes, the two of them trained together, and were most likely good friends, or at least friendly, and I have no doubt that he was very torn about what was coming. But to think that that friendship is enough to make him allow his family (Yes, I believe to him Armin is as close as family) to go into danger alone is ridiculous. The manga spelled it out perfectly, when the choice is between Annie and Mikasa/Armin, there is no choice. The world is a cruel place, and he realized what he had to do to protect what was important to him.

Had Annie stomped on Eren before Mikasa and Armin were able to leave the tunnel, I don't think there would be any kind of debate at all, but to me the biggest issue I have about it is the fact that he allowed Mikasa to leave his sight. This completely changes the tone and message of the manga. In the manga, he made a decision, he did what he believed was right. In the anime, he couldn't make up his mind on what was important to him, and just laid there until he went berserk. Both send a completely different message about what kind of person Eren is, and how much or little growth he's gone through in the series. Once again, he had to fall back on his "I'll kill them all" mentality to make a difference. I liked the fact that in the manga, he was able to finally take control of his transformation. It wasn't instinct, it wasn't an unconscious reaction, it was a deliberate action he took that wasn't fueled by unreasoning rage or fear. It seemed like a small victory to him, and the anime took that away.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by ZeMaverick

But the best was Nile Dawk. I liked that man the moment I saw him. People think he's evil but from his stand point, he was making the right decision. He looked Eren straight in the face without animosity and told him to die for humanities sake. As the leader of the military police, he's primary concern is keeping the peace. Eren threatened that peace. From his POV it was the right decision to make. On top of that he was patriotic. When the supreme commander appeared he looked quite patriotic. This was reinforced this episode again. Damn Erwin and Levi for trying to act all badass and cool and not telling him what was happening. I would have pointed my gun at Erwin for not telling me anything. After all they are of the same rank, Erwin should stop acting all mysterious badass and cool and just tell him what's on. To me it was completely reasonable to point a gun and demand answers.

I'd say Nile is coward, incompetent and corrupt. The MP he knows is just a house of cards.

No match for the Recon Corps or if the masses revolt against them.

As such his fears controls him rather than facing them.

Of couse Erwin won't tell him. The MP are compromised by a sleeper agent. Who is to say there are not more? Even in the Recon Corps there is a thing such as a need to know basis. Nile did not need to know.

[ZeMaverick]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

I'd say Nile is coward, incompetent and corrupt. The MP he knows is just a house of cards.

No match for the Recon Corps or if the masses revolt against them.

As such his fears controls him rather than facing them.

Of couse Erwin won't tell him. The MP are compromised by a sleeper agent. Who is to say there are not more? Even in the Recon Corps there is a thing such as a need to know basis. Nile did not need to know.

I don't see how you saw all those traits in him. I haven't seen him do any such things to give him such a negative label. The MP system is inherently corrupt, not him.

Course he's no match. He's the head of an cowardly, incompetent and corrupt organisation.

How does his fear control him? There hasn't been any scenarios where his fear did that. What fear does he have to face? He doesn't know what going on so he asks the recon corps leader, who doesn't answer. Then he learns he was double crossed and that the recon corps have been undergoing a secret operation. His reaction was normal. How is it cowardly and not facing his fears. There wasn't much fear to face.

Yup, he didn't need to know. But he doesn't know that. So he wants answers.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by ZeMaverick

How does his fear control him? There hasn't been any scenarios where his fear did that. What fear does he have to face? He doesn't know what going on so he asks the recon corps leader, who doesn't answer. Then he learns he was double crossed and that the recon corps have been undergoing a secret operation. His reaction was normal. How is it cowardly and not facing his fears. There wasn't much fear to face.

Did you see him shitting his pants when Levi was beating the crap off Eren? Just a while ago he Nile was advocating Eren to be dissected. Now he is begging Levi to stop realizing how stupid he is.

[ZeMaverick]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Did you see him shitting his pants when Levi was beating the crap off Eren? Just a while ago he Nile was advocating Eren to be dissected. Now he is begging Levi to stop realizing how stupid he is.

Because he's not evil. Torturing someone (Levi beating Eren) is different from dissecting them.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by ZeMaverick

Because he's not evil. Torturing someone (Levi beating Eren) is different from dissecting them.

It has nothing to do with morals. Nile was so scared of Eren that he wants to dispose of him. When he realized Eren can very well kill him where he stands if he antagonizes him he tucked his tail and leaves the whole matter to the Recon corps specifically Levi.

His fear makes him very incompetent as a leader.

Heck he is just scared with Eren just shouting at them. Lack of trigger discipline his people pointed guns at a room full of top brass without authorization.

[ZeMaverick]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

It has nothing to do with morals. Nile was so scared of Eren that he wants to dispose of him. When he realized Eren can very well kill him where he stands if he antagonizes him he tucked his tail and leaves the whole matter to the Recon corps specifically Levi.

His fear makes him very incompetent as a leader.

Heck he is just scared with Eren just shouting at them. Lack of trigger discipline his people pointed guns at a room full of top brass without authorization.

As I said earlier, Nile wasn't so scared of Eren that he wanted to dispose of him. When he is first introduced he talks about his 'duty' in removing Eren to prevent a rebellion.

You realise that you contradicted yourself there, saying he was scared of Eren just shouting at them and saying Eren can very well kill them where he stands. He ordered the gun pointed because steam was coming off Eren's hands as he was shouting. Eren looked, to Nile who doesn't know Eren, as if he was about to transform. He was afraid of course, as everybody was. If he let fear control as you said, he would have ordered his companion to shoot Eren, not to ready his weapon. Also, He is the military police...so its kind of his job to reaction in those situations. He is the authority in this regard and he gave himself authorization to order weapons readied at Eren.

And here is where I don't think we can come to a agreement. In my mind, the judge has the final say and he decided to give Eren to the recon corps. The judge heard both Nile and then Erwin+Levi's proposition and decided to go for the recon corps. I don't see how he tucked his tail between his legs. He already said all he had/could say.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by ZeMaverick

As I said earlier, Nile wasn't so scared of Eren that he wanted to dispose of him. When he is first introduced he talks about his 'duty' in removing Eren to prevent a rebellion.

Really?

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Yeah right he wasn't scared of Eren huh?

He was so damn scared of him realizing how stupid he is trying to dissect Eren. Nile Dawk hasn't fought a Titan in his life yet is so afraid of them he can't think clearly. Eren called on every person that isn't a real soldier on that.

Nile Dawk was afraid Eren will be a hero that people will turn on the MP as they are a useless bunch. There is only 2000 of them with no actual human combat experience covering millions of people. Millions of people who are not happy with them.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by ZeMaverick

As I said earlier, Nile wasn't so scared of Eren that he wanted to dispose of him. When he is first introduced he talks about his 'duty' in removing Eren to prevent a rebellion.

That sounds like a rationalization of his own fears to me. There's no logic in appeasing the masses when there's so much more at stake, namely the survival of said masses.
Nile wasn't even willing to evaluate whether they could use Eren or not, and that's only because he didn't want to take the risk. Perhaps we can discuss if he was driven by a healthy fear of a realistic threat or just cowardice, but that's still fear and I don't think he had logical basis to consider Eren a realistic threat anymore than there were logical basis to consider the large hadron collider a realistic threat to our world's existence.

Originally Posted by ZeMaverick

If he let fear control as you said, he would have ordered his companion to shoot Eren, not to ready his weapon. Also, He is the military police...so its kind of his job to reaction in those situations. He is the authority in this regard and he gave himself authorization to order weapons readied at Eren.

I don't think that's true. If it was in the middle of a street inside wall Sina you might have a point, but it was in the middle of courtroom where the final authority is the judge and the judge in this case was the highest military authority to which Nile defers to.

If Nile ordered to shoot Eren without a very damn good reason before the generalissimo emitted his verdict, he wouldn't have gotten away with it with just an admonishment.

That's not his "cool" that kept Nile at bay there, he had already decided that Eren should be killed, the reason he didn't gave the order is because he was as much afraid of Eren as he was afraid of losing his job.

[ZeMaverick]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

removedforspace

You were saying he made his decision to dispose of Eren because he was scared of him. He hadn't even met Eren before he made that decision so I don't know what you're trying to say there.

He was scared in the courtroom, which I already talked about. He was calm whilst delivering his speech about his decision too. He only became afraid when Eren looked like he was transforming into a titan, which is only natural.

As for not thinking clearly, I just said this before, he reacted normally. Eren looked like he was about to transform so he ordered his men to ready his weapon. If he wasn't thinking clearly he would have ordered Eren shot. As for realising what a stupid decision it was...well as i said we probably can't come to an agreement because he wasn't shown much on screen after Levi+Erwin gave their speech. We only saw him scared that Levi was going to make Eren transform. When he saw that Eren wasn't going to do so, it's quite likely that he realised his decision to dissect Eren was wrong. I still don't see how it makes him a coward, incompetent etc. He hasn't fought titans before so Eren+Levi showed him that Eren can be controlled. That's the way I see it.

That's true but I fail to see how he is incompetent or cowardly because of that. He probably knows how useless his subordinates are. That's why he decides to have Eren executed because the MP would not be able to hold back the outer wall dissenters.

EDIT: Just a heads up that I'm calling it a night so I won't be replying till a few hours later now.

[ZeMaverick]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

deletedforspace

Quite likely he was afraid (see reply to ReddyRedWolf). Yeah, that's probably due to his job, which is MP so he naturally prioritizes removing the threat of rebellion. It's a theme SnK has that people are like cattle and don't prepare for the future. He represents that by showing how he thinks short term and 'within' the walls, instead of everything within and how the outside may affect it. That's also seen with the merchant.
He did evaluate that they dissect him for information but he needed to actually kill Eren otherwise Eren would remain a symbol of 'hope' for the outer wall dissenter (as a means of breaking in). It seems everybody within the wall is a conservative. Healthy fear? More like his limited perspective its a normal. When they showed him in ep14, I got the feeling that he considered the recon corps as just this other military party rivals, not as a military party rival that is seeking to save the whole of humanity. It felt all very introverted and closed within the walls. A sheltered life so to speak. If he really knew what was happening he may show what ReddyRedWolf says he does but since he doesn't really understand, he's pretty rational. I think ep24 was like a wake up call for the MP (and Wall Sinnan's in general). Afraid of Eren directly before he saw him, no. He was afraid because Eren was a symbol for the outer wall dissenters. Afterwards, well he definitely had immediate fear but in my opinion he wasn't irrational, incompetent or cowardly in his reaction.

I understand what you mean but in such situations he has to handle the situation. If he asked for permission it might be too late. The supreme commander is supreme commander of all three branches. Nile is head of the MP so this is under he has authority to act if he thinks it necessary. Afterwards he may be trialed for being an idiot depending on if they thought Eren was really going to transform

Exactly. And he didn't because Eren didn't transform. If he was truly acting out of irrational fear he would have just ordered his men to fire without thinking things through. Being afraid of losing his job suggests he was thinking things through and not acting irrationally. So basically he could have not shot Eren because of one of a combination of: Not wanting to lose his job for shooting without (enough) good reason, because he realised what an ignorant idiot he was and frightened that Eren would kill him or that he was afraid of dying but thought things over (lose my job, will he actually transform, what's for lunch) a bit and decided to just order his soldier to ready his weapon. After that levi proved to everybody that Eren can be kept under control. At which point Nile's after reaction isn't really shown.
In my opinion, I think he was afraid he was going to die but still kept his cool.

Afraid of Eren? Yeah. unreasonably so? No, otherwise he would have ordered his men to shoot. He did keep his cool. Wait, "That's not his "cool" that kept Nile at bay there", you mean he kept his cool, right? Or that he kept his cool at bay and was irrationally afraid?

Well, at this point i'm repeating myself.

[lateraldeath]

Originally Posted by ZeMaverick

It's a theme SnK has that people are like cattle and don't prepare for the future. He represents that by showing how he thinks short term and 'within' the walls, ..... More like his limited perspective .... he considered the recon corps as just this other military party rivals.

You yourself pretty much said that he represents the short comings of humanity, so at least Niles is an incompetent leader and his decision for Eren isn't what's best for humanity. To begin with, when humanity is in such a dire situation, he still think about stuff like rivalry as the leader of an entire military unit and base decisions on that? That's pretty immature for a leader. Look at Pixis or Erwin, they know what a leader's priorities should be in this world ensure peace for mankind.

Different topic but incompetent leaders breeds incompetent soldiers, I wouldn't be surprised if MP is the way they are because of Nile's inabilities to watch over them. I'm sure if Pixis or Erwin were to replace him, things will be different.

[Alex939197]

about episode 23 when annie is laughing seriously though. its a half-hysterical laugh of relief so yes, some are claiming its OOC. Hell look at her friends faces. they've NEVER seen her like this and its freaking them out. Its supposed to feel OOC, you're supposed to feel betrayed. Because outside of her skills and bits where her real self came out (under the mask of her stoicism/deadpan voice), you don't know the actual Annie in the least. Its been an act, she's thrown off both her friends here AND us. And that is awesome to pull off. and does this make her weak?
Not in the least. Infact she might be even more deadlier now without the emotional burden of being a spy, and backed into a corner right in the most deepest reaches of the Wall Territories. And then one day when aiding one of the closer friends, you get ousted. Just like that suddenly you're being openly & directly identified. after years of deception and careful trickery. Annie is experiencing shock, and intense relief, not to mention feelings of how ridiculous the situation is. She's laughing cause she doesn't need to put up a charade, she's blushing from the blood rushing into her face from the intensity of emotions (not just the situation but the long term bottling up). Imagine you've been deep undercover for years acting as a complete stoic (cause you're a damn kid) & not being yourself for all those years, committing horrible acts of deception and then facing a situation where you need to push yourself to more and more desperate acts of slaughter. You feel the pain of people killed, specially friends. people keep misunderstanding this scene for some reason. Since she didn't react like this in manga (more like a creepy smile). The change was made from the original author, he pushed for it while the anime director wanted to retain the original scene.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by ZeMaverick

I understand what you mean but in such situations he has to handle the situation. If he asked for permission it might be too late. The supreme commander is supreme commander of all three branches. Nile is head of the MP so this is under he has authority to act if he thinks it necessary. Afterwards he may be trialed for being an idiot depending on if they thought Eren was really going to transform

Exactly. And he didn't because Eren didn't transform. If he was truly acting out of irrational fear he would have just ordered his men to fire without thinking things through. Being afraid of losing his job suggests he was thinking things through and not acting irrationally. So basically he could have not shot Eren because of one of a combination of: Not wanting to lose his job for shooting without (enough) good reason, because he realised what an ignorant idiot he was and frightened that Eren would kill him or that he was afraid of dying but thought things over (lose my job, will he actually transform, what's for lunch) a bit and decided to just order his soldier to ready his weapon. After that levi proved to everybody that Eren can be kept under control. At which point Nile's after reaction isn't really shown.
In my opinion, I think he was afraid he was going to die but still kept his cool.

Afraid of Eren? Yeah. unreasonably so? No, otherwise he would have ordered his men to shoot. He did keep his cool. Wait, "That's not his "cool" that kept Nile at bay there", you mean he kept his cool, right? Or that he kept his cool at bay and was irrationally afraid?

Well, at this point i'm repeating myself.

Apparently you think you can argue that he wasn't afraid by pointing out that he wasn't panicking.

[Revolutionist]

Is it just me or does Annie have romantic feelings towards Armin? There seems to be more than just respect there. This episode she had another chance to kill the little genius and does nothing as he runs right under her feet...It should be pretty obvious by now that the brains behind the Scouting Legion (Erwin and now Armin) pose a bigger threat to her goals, whatever they may be, than blunt instruments like Levi and Mikasa.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Is it just me or does Annie have romantic feelings towards Armin? There seems to be more than just respect there. This episode she had another chance to kill the little genius and does nothing as he runs right under her feet...It should be pretty obvious by now that the brains behind the Scouting Legion (Erwin and now Armin) pose a bigger threat to her goals, whatever they may be, than blunt instruments like Levi and Mikasa.

Let's make a religious reference out of that!

Levi & Mikasa: Body aka muscles
Erwin & Armin: Spirit aka brains
Eren: Soul aka f33lz

nah, just joking

[ZeMaverick]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Apparently you think you can argue that he wasn't afraid by pointing out that he wasn't panicking.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make.

[ZeMaverick]

Originally Posted by lateraldeath

You yourself pretty much said that he represents the short comings of humanity, so at least Niles is an incompetent leader and his decision for Eren isn't what's best for humanity. To begin with, when humanity is in such a dire situation, he still think about stuff like rivalry as the leader of an entire military unit and base decisions on that? That's pretty immature for a leader. Look at Pixis or Erwin, they know what a leader's priorities should be in this world ensure peace for mankind.

Different topic but incompetent leaders breeds incompetent soldiers, I wouldn't be surprised if MP is the way they are because of Nile's inabilities to watch over them. I'm sure if Pixis or Erwin were to replace him, things will be different.

Incompetent in the overall or real picture of things. For the people within the wall i.e. everyone except recon corps, his behavior was fine. That rivalry stuff was not letting the recon corps get their hands on Eren because they he seems them as 'radicals' or 'loonies' depending on your sub. As a conservative he'd be opposed to them messing things up and doing something he thinks is wasteful or stupid (sending Eren out of the walls and not removing the symbol of hope). That was the type of rivalry was talking about, not the immature type. I thought that highlighted how limited and enclosed his perspective was. That was the point I was trying to push across. As an MP, ignoring the outside world as nearly everybody except the recon corps does, his decision was normal. As an MP acknowledging the danger of titans, it wasn't. The people inside the wall are content like livestock with the status quo, as I think the opening lyrics say. Yeah, I noticed that Pixis and Erwin are both people who have been willing to throw away their humanity to ensure victory for mankind. Ian and Mitabi (those 'elite' garrison soldiers) died because they retained their humanity (Ian saving a soldier, Mitabi being distracted by his comrades deaths).

Yeah I agree. The system seems to be inherently corrupt and encourage corruption and incompetence but not enough information has been given on that area to say if Nile could change it. However, his companion soldier seem to hold an active interest in politic affairs. As for discipline, we've only seen the 'companion' try stop Jaegar leaving the carriage, which isn't any real test. Still, if Nile bred incompetence in his soldiers, I don't think his companion would be interested in keeping (from their stand point) the civil peace.

On another subject, do you think the King created and continues the fund the recon corps because they are a failure. Why keep dissenters who can cause trouble within the walls when you can send 'em out to die? Either that or he really is trying to help humanity. Way too early to say though since the show focuses on soldiers.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Is it just me or does Annie have romantic feelings towards Armin?

For added drama, they were lovers, and Armin didn't hesitate one bit! Because He can make the choice that no one else can make, the right choice. He's the hero Shiganshina and the walled cities need, not the one they deserve.