Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

I'd imagine they would have when he was a little kid and not suddenly now. I'd like it if they addressed him wanting revenge again somehow though, since the story has pretty much let that be now that there's other villains to deal with.

Well, as I stated, he's in training right now. Let me put it this way... if Tsuzuki doesn't address his revenge and his feelings about it at some point down the road, then I'll call the story bad. But Tsuzuki has brought it up as a story element, so unless he drops the ball, I'm going to presume it will be addressed.

Yeah, I remember that. But until he actually does that, I count that as telling instead of showing.

Despite my general feeling of showing being better than telling, the latter isn't completely an invalid tactic. Remember, this is essentially Thoma's dark side addressing his light side, so they are showing us the seeds of his inner conflict. And this is something that can only really be told, rather than shown, at least at this point in time. If they didn't tell us, then when they showed us later, we'd be like, "What the hell? Did this just come out of nowhere?"

A writer has to establish plot points early. And Thoma's feelings are one big cocked Chekov's Gun.

And I'm asking why exactly Curren would call Touma up and threaten him instead of using the actual useful information she probably has now. Even if she does not have it, why do something that would reaffirm his opinion of them as dangerous criminals? Why would anyone who's supposed to be intelligent do that?

I'd say she doesn't know who the killers of Thoma's village are now. The pair that Veyron and Arnage fought, and the conversation they had then and prior, indicate that they are still looking for the "book and gunblade duo."

And Curren's message wasn't too much of a threat. It was mostly an invitation. She just said that if he waited too long, she might do some kidnapping. And if you'll note right after that, Thoma still feels sympathy for them.

Thoma: "I know that well. It's just that I do owe them for giving me a helping hand. I wonder if permission would be granted..."

So he's clearly thinking about it, and it proves that Curren is reading Thoma well enough. Also, RF is aware of it:

(Can't tell who is talking): "This has clearly become a solicitation. It'll be good if Thoma doesn't feel anymore affection towards them. His sense of morality is a bit unique... It seems he feels he owes them some gratitude."

The characters seem to understand Thoma well enough. And if they see it, then I'm forced to conclude it is there as well.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

I don't have any problems with Tohma trianing and preparing to face his destiny but i just hope the plot doesn't take too much time on this as that's a plot device with a pretty strightforward conclusion, he trains = he becomes stronger, the end ...one of the big failures of StrikerS was dragging out the training of the forwards a bit too long.

There's no reason why they can't just skip the training and let Tohma do actual important stuff. As far as i read the last post imply the old cast have little to do with the climax of the story as Tohma will be the only one able to actually do something significant so i wonder why they just don't let him do that xDU

I'd actually agree about the training, which was one of StrikerS failings. Some training is okay, but you don't overdo it unless you're working it into other plot points. Thus far, we haven't actually seen much of his training; just enough to know it is happening in the background. So, it doesn't bother me yet.

Now, if we get 5 more chapters mostly devoted to training, I'll begin to have a problem with it. But a page or two per chapter, interspersed with other developments, isn't so bad.

[Rising Dragon]

As far as potential future plot elements go, it could also turn out that Curren and Veyron were the "book and gunblade duo" like the one flashback implied, and they just don't remember it due to extenuating circumstances. Say they find what they think are the duo and Touma ends up joining them. Then once he's gained the Huckebein's friendship, he finds out the truth and that Curren and Veyron were responsible. What then? Go for revenge, or try to forgive due to the new feelings of friendship and such?

Could be interesting. And it's not without precedent either; we have Chrono and Lindy coexisting peacefully with the Wolkenritter, who were to a degree partially responsible for Clyde's death.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

As far as potential future plot elements go, it could also turn out that Curren and Veyron were the "book and gunblade duo" like the one flashback implied, and they just don't remember it due to extenuating circumstances. Say they find what they think are the duo and Touma ends up joining them. Then once he's gained the Huckebein's friendship, he finds out the truth and that Curren and Veyron were responsible. What then? Go for revenge, or try to forgive due to the new feelings of friendship and such?

Could be interesting. And it's not without precedent either; we have Chrono and Lindy coexisting peacefully with the Wolkenritter, who were to a degree partially responsible for Clyde's death.

Hmm, good point. I didn't think of that. Especially since they may be setting up the conflict of Thoma/Lily vs. Veyron/Fifth and Curren/Isis. I can see that as a 3 vs. 3. And all Veyron says is "I don't remember" with regards to Thoma's town, an interesting use of words if your theory is true.

But it will mean at the end, with Veyron beaten, and Thoma pointing his sword at the man who wiped out his town... and overcoming his dark feelings to get Veyron some help instead of kill him. Or maybe Veyron will kill himself, or someone else will.

Lots of interesting potential here.

[LostSome]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Lily and Isis never really did something I could consider important. Isis could be interesting at first, when she mention he identity and I was thinking maybe she was related to the Hückebein or the AEC makers or something and that ended being pointless really. Lily on the other hand was just damsel in distress and not that much a character since we know so little about her. I like her when she could not talk and had problems to walk, really add much to the characters nature. But that is just my take on it.

This is one of my main disappointments...
Isis was basically a big "there is no mystery here, it was all in your head". Nice trolling, Tsuzuki...
Lily... Don`t like her much. I can`t see her as more than a device... A plot device.
I can find Fifth more interesting with her having faced the same experiments as Lily plus getting beat up by her driver.
Getting "saved" by Veyron who told her that there was no god to save her somehow was touching. To me, at least.

Just asking, is it that easy to get in and out of a TSAB prison ?
One breakin and one break out in the same chapter.
After Lucky Luke and the Daltons, you have Nanoha and the Grendels.

[Sansker]

I will give that to Force the training is handle better there than StrikerS. I still consider those scenes as unnecessary padding but aren’t that bad and overall harmless.

I still consider Thoma to be way too passive. Is not a matter of what may happen but more of what is he doing? And the short answer to that is: nothing. He might train, and be ready for anything but he lacks passion and shows no interest on learning the truth he was looking before. He just sits there and waits to the others to go and tell him what he wants to know. I mean, if he did use his new “job” on SD6 to search for the truth of his past I will not mind it as much. I only talk about what we see and we really don’t see him doing much, in fact he seems to be having a lot of fun right now and almost forget how much he care in the beginning.

And “maybe later” is not always a good answer. I just think that if Thoma was to get rid of the Silver Cross and the Eclipse he will go back home and wait, after all those are the only reasons he still remains with the TSAB. It really doesn’t matter what he does but he needs to do something. Maybe is just that I miss the feeling and rather faster pace the first part of the series had when I compare it to this rather boring office routine they made for the characters when we see them writing reports, cleaning tables, having reunions, serving tea, going to pick people, etc. is no what I call “exiting adventure”

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Maybe is just that I miss the feeling and rather faster pace the first part of the series had when I compare it to this rather boring office routine they made for the characters when we see them writing reports, cleaning tables, having reunions, serving tea, going to pick people, etc. is no what I call “exiting adventure”

The exact same problem with StrikerS is alsmost as if Tsuzuki didn't knwo how to fill those gaps. The fact eveyrone seems to be so ok with all the terrible things that ocurred on part 1 of the plot is also pretty unsettling.

For example, as someone mentioned before, the Wolkenritter have the tendency to treat anyone who do as much as threaten Hayate's life as mortal enemies. Here? not so much.

[Justin_Brett]

I'd say she doesn't know who the killers of Thoma's village are now. The pair that Veyron and Arnage fought, and the conversation they had then and prior, indicate that they are still looking for the "book and gunblade duo."

And Curren's message wasn't too much of a threat. It was mostly an invitation. She just said that if he waited too long, she might do some kidnapping. And if you'll note right after that, Thoma still feels sympathy for them.

But she does know they exist. If you're good with words, that should be enough to sway him. If he joins because he threatened you I don't think he'd make a very valuable teammate.

Him being cool with it is the thing I don't like. Even if he feels grateful to the Hucks as a whole, the first person this woman does when he meets her is threaten him and his friends? At least get a little upset.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

But she does know they exist. If you're good with words, that should be enough to sway him. If he joins because he threatened you I don't think he'd make a very valuable teammate.

She only knows they exist, because Thoma told them about it. All the information they have is that it was a man and a woman, a book and gunblade duo. Remember Fortis saying that they didn't do it, because if they did, they wouldn't have left anyone alive? Basically, at this point, Curren is only looking for them in order to use them as a carrot to lure Thoma in.

Well, not totally. She has her own version of "ridding the world of evil" that she is engaged in, hence her destruction of the fake dividers and people experimenting with the zero gene. At this point, I think she(and the other Hucks) feel Thoma really would be better off with them. His own kind, so to speak.

Him being cool with it is the thing I don't like. Even if he feels grateful to the Hucks as a whole, the first person this woman does when he meets her is threaten him and his friends? At least get a little upset.

Because they stopped him from going nuts the first time. Remember, right before Cypha showed up, he was beginning to lose it. They contained him, and then explained everything to him about his condition, and told him they have a way to contain and control the murderous impulses. In their own way, they were helping him, and he saw that. He probably recognizes they are a little screwy, but that's what leads to his inner conflict.

In short: Yeah, a part of him knows they are technically criminals and seem to have done bad things, but another part of him is thankful for their help. There's also another part of him that doesn't think he can fit in with a normal family (the imaginary Veyron conversation), so while his dark side is repressed for now, it's not gone. He may go with the Hucks, just because his dark side convinces him that he belongs with an outcast family.

I'm sure you've come across many stories where someone went emo claiming, "I have blood on my hands, so I can never be part of something good. I must remain in the shadows and atone for my sins." This is a similar variation to that. Thoma's subconscious is keeping him open to the Hucks as a possible home.

And as RF6 noted, he is "morally unique."

I'll agree that it isn't something I'd do, but then again, I'm not inflicted with a disease that will make me kill people and amplifies my darkest thoughts. I'd imagine that would have something of an effect on me.

[Akiyoshi]

Well, since it was revealed the EC-virus also works to alter the psyche of it's victims (providing yet another convenient excuse to justify the Hucks's behavior xDU) it's probably that imaginary chat with Veyron was induced by the virus itself.

[Kaijo]

I'm not saying the virus/book/etc had no effect, and I'd be willing to agree that a large part of stuff like that chat were induced by his condition. Then again, humans have had such thoughts naturally, when they sink into depression.

Anyway, the important thing is... that part is still there. Expect it to come up again.

Lastly, as a psychology/sociology lesson, we humans love to associate with our own kind. Not just racially, but with countries or sports teams, etc. There is a very primal impulse to join the side most like us and root for it, regardless of what they've done. If I'm a fan from Big City A, and my city has a soccer team, I am going to identify with the soccer team my city has, because it is from my city. Even if that team has a reputation for drunkeness, assault, douchebaggery, etc. Even if the city next to mine has a soccer team that is well-mannered and good sports, I'll still identify with the one from my city.

On a subconscious level, Thoma probably feels like he is more Huck than human, hence those lingering pleasantries he feels towards them. We'll probably never know the exact ratio of what is affecting him, but one thing to be damn sure of, is that both the book and his own feelings are in play. Ruling either out, would be folly.

[Sansker]

There is only one problem with all that Kaijo. We don’t see it. So far Thoma doesn’t seem to have any trouble fitting in to the SD6 or Subaru’s family. At all. And when you don’t make some room to construct this “conflict” is really nothing that can be use as a plot device to make him join the Hückebein family. And if that were the case I should come up already after 3 months Thoma have been living with SD6. I think that could be nice but as this is going right now will be kind of rush, or I am afraid it will be.

Besides Thoma’s morality is odd. I am still confused by his reaction to Veyron when he apologizes for attacking him on the church. First, while Veyron might not be the one who attack his village (That being said, they never offer any proof and Thoma just take Fortis word for it) Veyron did kill 3 innocent nuns that were not a treat to him. That is bad. That is enough to attack someone. I don't know you guys but I will never apologize to a guy who commits murder in front of me just because he isn’t the murder I am looking for.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Sansker

There is only one problem with all that Kaijo. We don’t see it. So far Thoma doesn’t seem to have any trouble fitting in to the SD6 or Subaru’s family. At all. And when you don’t make some room to construct this “conflict” is really nothing that can be use as a plot device to make him join the Hückebein family. And if that were the case I should come up already after 3 months Thoma have been living with SD6. I think that could be nice but as this is going right now will be kind of rush, or I am afraid it will be.

It's almost like his condition is under some sort of stable control now... oh wait, that happened.

Thoma is between two worlds at the moment, which is why he feels he can fit in with RF6 and Subaru's family. He was taken in and helped by Subaru, a kind person, whereas the Hucks were helped only by other outcast Hucks. The Huck's themselves realized Thoma could become some sort of liaison.

Besides Thoma’s morality is odd.

If only it had been mentioned somewhere that Thoma was "morally unique" ...

Seriously, dude, you've been told he's a strange person. And yet you still complain when he acts strange... despite being pointed out the exact factors that direct his motivation.

Just because someone doesn't think like you, doesn't make them a less valid character. You may as well be calling everyone here who doesn't agree with you (and most don't): "strange."

[Akiyoshi]

It could be that Tohma is really an amoral person trying to mantain sanity? It won't be the first case of someone having inner murderous impulse but trying to hold on the idea of moral principles. Disgrace hit Tohma at a very young age and spent some time living by himself as a small child, probably his concept of "good" and "evil" (or more specifically what "fair" means) isn't a well cemented as normally rised people.

Sure, he was taken by Subaru and learn't what a kind and functional family is but he himself feels stranged from that scene, sometimes people only follows rules and do the "right" thing not quite conviced at heart but more likely for a desire to fit inside that society. The Hucks rejected society and live their lives doing as they pleases, it's almost hedonistic, and it could be very temptating to Tohma's inner psycho the chance to be part of a family that doesn't try to impose rules on him nor forcing him to be a "good person".

Tohma could probably be just a tortured kid that grows up as a mosnter who is constantly deluding himself into believing he's a noble person.

[WarpObscura]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Could be interesting. And it's not without precedent either; we have Chrono and Lindy coexisting peacefully with the Wolkenritter, who were to a degree partially responsible for Clyde's death.

I'm surprised there aren't more fics where that's an issue. Offhand I can only think of Lyrical Twilight making a fuss of it being personal for the Harlaowns.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by WarpObscura

I'm surprised there aren't more fics where that's an issue. Offhand I can only think of Lyrical Twilight making a fuss of it being personal for the Harlaowns.

According to the MOVIE 2nd A's trailers it's supossed Lindy took things a bit more personal on that version isn't o_o? (remember the scene where she's about to curbstomp Signum).

[Yasanagi]

So Thoma becomes the Nanoha equivalent of Kotomine Kirei (Fate Zero version) who tries to keep a sense of morality but can only find pleasure by killing and doing generally immoral things? That would be an interesting twist.

[Sansker]

It will but Thoma is a little bland for it. Passive and without passion. To me he doesn't really stands out as he should. And still, why nobody ever address the fact he apologizes to Veyron who kill 3 defenseless nuns? That did happen and Thoma say to him "Sorry I attack you because of a misunderstanding". To me that is always strange.

[Rising Dragon]

So he forgave him for accusing him of a crime he may not actually have committed. Can we please not translate that as "absolving him of all his sins"? Seriously, that's right up there with Aki and his stupidity over Signum's one loss.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Sansker

It will but Thoma is a little bland for it. Passive and without passion. To me he doesn't really stands out as he should. And still, why nobody ever address the fact he apologizes to Veyron who kill 3 defenseless nuns? That did happen and Thoma say to him "Sorry I attack you because of a misunderstanding". To me that is always strange.

It could be as Rising says but i was referring Tohma's easy forgiveness about that as a sign of his inner amorality. He could be less of an idealistic hero like Nanoha and more of a pragmatic anti-hero (remeber he learnt how to survive only for himself when he was little). So a bunch of death nuns he never get to met probably aren't that much of an issue for him o_o.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

It could be that Tohma is really an amoral person trying to mantain sanity? It won't be the first case of someone having inner murderous impulse but trying to hold on the idea of moral principles. Disgrace hit Tohma at a very young age and spent some time living by himself as a small child, probably his concept of "good" and "evil" (or more specifically what "fair" means) isn't a well cemented as normally rised people.

Sure, he was taken by Subaru and learn't what a kind and functional family is but he himself feels stranged from that scene, sometimes people only follows rules and do the "right" thing not quite conviced at heart but more likely for a desire to fit inside that society. The Hucks rejected society and live their lives doing as they pleases, it's almost hedonistic, and it could be very temptating to Tohma's inner psycho the chance to be part of a family that doesn't try to impose rules on him nor forcing him to be a "good person".

Tohma could probably be just a tortured kid that grows up as a mosnter who is constantly deluding himself into believing he's a noble person.

You know, Aki, you drive me nuts most of the time, and your skewed Signum fanboyism is enough to make anyone sick, but...

This post was actually an incredibly insightful and thoughtful observation. It... brings a tear to my eye, and almost makes me take back everything I may have said about you.

Having said that, I don't think Tsuzuki will go that deep, but that's at least closer to what I feel is going on. I don't think he'll become a Kirei(maybe a bit of an Kiritsugu), but he might be tempted to. Hell, Curren might think she is one, feeling she is doing dirty work for a good cause, so the TSAB "white knights" don't have to dirty their hands like this.

And Sansker... no, nevermind. No matter what Thoma does or doesn't do, he'll always be bland to you, and he'll always be a problem. There is no situation or condition that would make you think anything of him. He could become a Kotome Kirei or a Kiritsugu Emiya, and you'd still think he was bland.