[Manga] Naruto Chapter 619 Discussion Thread

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by El_Negro

so I'm guessing your'e okay with mass murder when one clan member does something that his clan wasn't remotely responsible for but since they're from the same clan, it's all the same to you: peter pay's for paul paul pay's for all

I don't think anyone's okay with mass murder (here). I would like to point out that the entire clan was in on it.

[gibits]

Originally Posted by El_Negro

Um yeah it so I guess they don't need the friggin votes of respectable Jounin & Elders from the village to nominate a Hokage right? the Daiymo agrees with the elders and jounin's nomination. After that the village pretty much is governed by said elders and the selected hokage . So you tell me where the dictatorship lies? Since dictatorship means sole role by one person only having a say everyone else's decision doesn't matter. If it was a dictatorship Danzo would've taken over by now and wouldn't need Elders/Jounin and the Daiymo's blessing to run the village.

You don really get how representation works in government do you? The Daiymo don't "give their blessing" they have the final say. They listen to everyone's input but I the end what they say goes. There is no majority rules, there is no vote.

I'm kinda glad you brought that up because Orochimaru mentioned the same thing, even though Tobirama gave them the Military Police, it was position where they were looked at bitterly (even in the real world, no one likes the cops or they are the least favored) so in a way Tobirama set them up for fall banking on the fact that their own downfall would be their mental instability.

Plus, the village already had ANBU Black Ops/ANBU Root Division who were alot higher status & rank, the Military police looked like Mall cops compared to them so they still weren't on good standing.

Mall cops with the authority to detain you? Hey I don't like cops either but I still know not to mess with them. Why? Because they have the power to ruin me. I'm pretty sure Itachi was part of ANBU so it wasn't like they were excluded from "elite" stuff.

We don't know how their coup de tat would've gone done, quietly or otherwise and if it would've destroyed the village then the elders could've punish the ones responsible not the innocents, it because of this Sasuke feels justified in returning kind. After all there were children and civilian who were not involved in the plot.
Hell, Itachi even admitted to Sasuke that this whole situation could've been handled better but he messed up by doing things on his own and with little time on his hands.

Negotiations had already broken down. It was stated several times already that they were dead set on revolting. Not saying the 3rd handled it well but the Uchiha put him in an untenable situation. Sit and do nothing and risk more a civil war or take decisive action? He choose the latter.

Nothing making things up, if it were a dictatorship/feudal system they wouldn't have the need for Jounin and Elder nomination as well.

then why even have the Daiymos present for something the Chuunin exam? Why did the ninja of the village have to defer the selection of the next Hokage to them? It's not a vote; no congress was held, no parliament assembled. Many dictators, emporors, despots had advisors who debated what to tell their ruler, but the ruler had the final say. You are fabricating this system of representation out of thin air.

Tobirama set them up for a fall, he knew they were not to be trifled with and try to make it a win-win, which in essence was primarily for the village and the elders gain. And you keep bringing this dictatorship argument up, the Daiymo fund the village efforts and the village secures the Daimyo's, it a hand in hand relationship and if it were a Dictatorship, why the hell would there be Jounins/Chounins and other respectable ninja involved in the election process/nomination of a Hokage?

P.S. Tobirama didn't trust them to begin with so what "trust" Tobirama placed on them are u talking bout?

WHAT ELECTION PROCESS??? The Hokage picks his next successor. It is just handed down. Naruto brings back Tsunade. Did you see an election? When the 4th died was there a fierce campaign battle between the 3rd and Danzo? No and no. Like I said stop making stuff up. There is no such thing as a representive system in the village. Ninjas are from feudal Japan.
Tobirama trusted the Uchiha to safeguard the peace. And yet they became a cancer. He wanted them to use their power to make their home better. Instead they decided to revolt. He was being naive for thinking they could be appeased. They can't. Give them a 1000 bucks and they wonder why you didn't give them 1 million.

[Mistressy]

I only liked this chapter because of Hashirama.


His personality reminds me of someone. I just can't quite put my finger on it.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by El_Negro

I'm kinda glad you brought that up because Orochimaru mentioned the same thing, even though Tobirama gave them the Military Police, it was position where they were looked at bitterly (even in the real world, no one likes the cops or they are the least favored) so in a way Tobirama set them up for fall banking on the fact that their own downfall would be their mental instability.

I don't think Tobirama was intentionally setting them up for anything. He did want to keep them in a position where they could be closely monitored, but beyond that, I believe he wanted them to be a beneficial force in Konoha. He drew animosity from members of the clan who figured out his ulterior motive, but most, (including Sasuke's father) seemed to have a great deal of pride for their role as Konoha's police force

Likewise, the feelings towards the Uchiha didn't seem to be bitter as a whole. Really it seems like the opposite. They were admired, or at least respected. Sasuke's classmates whisper in awe that he's from the great Uchiha clan. And Kakashi mentions in the Gaiden how the Uchiha are considered a genius clan. Oro only points out that police forces tend to draw resentment from the population, but if there was actually negative feelings towards the Uchiha among the general population, we never see it.

Originally Posted by james0246

It's Daimyo, not Dynamo.

"Dynamo" sounds much more awesome

Originally Posted by gibits

WHAT ELECTION PROCESS??? The Hokage picks his next successor. It is just handed down. Naruto brings back Tsunade. Did you see an election? When the 4th died was there a fierce campaign battle between the 3rd and Danzo? No and no. Like I said stop making stuff up. There is no such thing as a representive system in the village. Ninjas are from feudal Japan.

Not exactly true. The Hokage can choose his own successor and the Daimyo can place someone in the position should the previous Hokage not be able to choose a new one. But the Hokage elect still has to be officially accepted by the council of jounin. Ninja of the village (at least in Konoha) absolutely retain right to remove the new Hokage from the seat if he doesn't prove to their liking. Danzou even says this the reason he didn't imprison Naruto after he became Hokage because he knew Naruto was seen as a hero by the village and they would kick him out if he did that.

[El_Negro]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I don't think anyone's okay with mass murder (here). I would like to point out that the entire clan was in on it.

Nope only the higher-ups/elite of the Uchiha clan plotted rebellion remember the 3rd mentioned that there were innocents such as children, women and civilians who were not involved. That's just generalizing

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I don't think Tobirama was intentionally setting them up for anything. He did want to keep them in a position where they could be closely monitored, but beyond that, I believe he wanted them to be a beneficial force in Konoha. He drew animosity from members of the clan who figured out his ulterior motive, but most, (including Sasuke's father) seemed to have a great deal of pride for their role as Konoha's police force

The way it seems he was trying to find a way to use their power for the greater good, he even admitted that he knew the coup de tat was coming sooner or later well sooner anyways.

[Photonbeam]

Excuse me but, is Naruto on a break this week?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by gibits

Mall cops with the authority to detain you? Hey I don't like cops either but I still know not to mess with them. Why? Because they have the power to ruin me. I'm pretty sure Itachi was part of ANBU so it wasn't like they were excluded from "elite" stuff.

itachi was in anbu as part of his double agent mission. he fed the uchiha little inklings of anbu plans, but nothing major. in the flashbacks his father reminds him that he is their spy because itachi wasn't providing enough information to the uchiha. his real purpose was to spy on the uchiha for the konoha elders and to thwart their coup d'etat

i think shisui was also in the anbu ranks but he was also on konoha's side like itachi. there may have been other uchiha in anbu, but nobody of consequence clearly. the loyal uchiha had no true positions in any kind of power in konoha

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by El_Negro

Nope only the higher-ups/elite of the Uchiha clan plotted rebellion remember the 3rd mentioned that there were innocents such as children, women and civilians who were not involved. That's just generalizing

...So the entire clan was in on it. Or are you saying that the Uchiha were all about equality and letting every single woman or child have a say?

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

itachi was in anbu as part of his double agent mission. he fed the uchiha little inklings of anbu plans, but nothing major. in the flashbacks his father reminds him that he is their spy because itachi wasn't providing enough information to the uchiha. his real purpose was to spy on the uchiha for the konoha elders and to thwart their coup d'etat

i think shisui was also in the anbu ranks but he was also on konoha's side like itachi. there may have been other uchiha in anbu, but nobody of consequence clearly. the loyal uchiha had no true positions in any kind of power in konoha

i figured shisui was in root since he had the baby butter knife on his back like they all seem to have...but there is no evidence of the vow of silence seal danzo uses so idk...

[itachi-san314]

my bold prediction for sasuke's next question:

"orochimaru, what do the akatsuki rings mean?"

[Taco Bell]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

my bold prediction for sasuke's next question:

"orochimaru, what do the akatsuki rings mean?"

earth, wind, water,fire, heart to summon captain planet to stop the jyubii

[El_Negro]

Originally Posted by Dengar

...So the entire clan was in on it. Or are you saying that the Uchiha were all about equality and letting every single woman or child have a say?

No the just stating that there were people in the clan who were not aware that their own clan was planning to overthrow the konoha government for the clan's benefit. For instance, I didn't see Sasuke's Aunt or Uncle at the meetings so we can't assume they would know what's going unless Kishi tells us in the manga or databooks

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

I think you are overstating the sacrifice. You can still be a "bad person" but sacrifice yourself for family and friends (and country). Nagato is a bad person, but he still sacrificed himself in the end for what he believed to be a higher cause. Itachi is a bad person, but he still sacrificed himself for his brother. If you commit extreme acts of cruelty (edit: or just extreme acts in general) you are generally a bad person, and Tobirama committed such acts (even if he felt it was due to the fact that the Uchiha are biologically driven to insanity whenever they get any power).

Tobirama sacrificed himself for the simple reason that it was more practical for his team to survive and lead Konoha than it was for him to survive but the future generation die. He didn't sacrifice himself out of the kindness of his heart, nor do I think he was being altruistic in any respect. He sacrificed himself because logically he was the only one there that could do what needed to be done while also helping his village. (Shikimaru did something similar during the Sound/Sand invasion.)

First they're not robots, to sacrifice your life for the sake of others is not a matter of practicality and logic it's a matter of ideal. Now I'm not saying the mere fact to believe in something greater than yourself and lay down your life for it is in itself what make someone good or bad but it is a measure of selflessness and it's nonsense to simply dismiss it as a practical issue. A better counter would be that there is a difference between altruism and duty or loyalty which I'd be hard pressed to challenge since the 2nd Hokage seems to embody that but it's still a far cry from the cost–benefit assessment you're trying to portray.
You've mentioned Itachi and I think it's a great example to show you that you're wrong (granted that we both agree that we're discussing this purely from this story point of view). I'd argue that the author went to almost unsurpassed length to explain that Itachi wasn't a bad person, that he was in fact quite the opposite, too good for this world even. The editorial view of Kishimoto is that Itachi cannot possibly be blamed for what happened, he's a virtually perfect man put in an awful situation and whose sole flaw was to be too self-reliant. He isn't a bad person, he was wrong. You said that since it's established that Naruto represent Good then it stands to reason that all who don't behave as he does are bad but it is incorrect. It only makes them wrong.

Two other things to consider are also that their world is firmly based on the principle that people are good before the society they live in twist them into worse aspects of themselves and that death is revelatory of their true nature. For example someone like Jiraiya who squandered most of his life is still a true hero because of his selflessness at the end. Another example of a less seemingly good natured person would be Kisame whose death reveled that despite his life and deeds his true nature was one of pure loyalty.

Long story short very few of the characters are truly bad people, most are simply misguided and even the worst among them usually (if not all the time) used to be good people whose flaws were twisted beyond recognition by the ninja system which transformed them into monsters.

As for the Uchiha being a lost cause.
[...] If Tobirama is correct in his assessment, then they were always going to be a ticking time bomb, he simply, and stupidly, helped speed up their destruction.

Honestly, I do not know if Hashirama appealed to their humanity or he simply made them complacent, whatever the case it is hard to see how simply treating the Uchiha with kindness helped to stave off the monster that presumably lives inside of them. Hopefully Hashirama will be able to discuss this problem next chapter and give us some further insight into why he felt the Uchiha could be saved (whereas Tobirama felt they were doomed since birth).

That's probably Naruto's job and not Hashirama.
Basically the one true vilain of the story is the ninja system. Hashirama lessened this evil with the creation of ninja village but it fell short of a true solution (or at least he died before he could do better).
As far as Tobirama is concerned the village is the final answer, anything that could threaten it must thus be dealt with whereas in Madara's point of view there is no solution because this is just the way reality is, thus his answer is to gain enough power to physically deny reality.
Both will be proved wrong by Naruto because of some cheesy speech I don't care to fathom yet.

[ranchan13]

Originally Posted by Taco Bell

earth, wind, water,fire, heart to summon captain planet to stop the jyubii

You know, I made almost that same reference a few pages back

Tobirama.....
Hashirama.....
Hiruzen.....
Minato.....
Will of the Leaf!

By your powers combined, I am Captain Hokage!

[amaterasu4]

Looks like Yamato's mean face was inherited from the First Hokage, lol

[Dengar]

They're not related.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Dengar

They're not related.

they're arguably more related than family. yamato was a test tube baby made out of hashirama's cells. he's basically a weak version of hashirama. that said, i don't see much resemblance...

[Hunter]

He's not, Orochimaru kidnapped infants and spliced their genes with Hashirama's in order to reproduce the Kekkei Genkai.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

He's not, Orochimaru kidnapped infants and spliced their genes with Hashirama's in order to reproduce the Kekkei Genkai.

oh yea. i forgot that orochimaru used actual children as the base for the experiment. thanks. makes sense then