[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Will Wright]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Screwing with Will is acceptable, screwing directly with the readers it's not. If there's a Van Dine rule whom I really agree with that's the number 2. That's the number 1 rule that every writer should respect.

2. No willful tricks or deceptions may be placed on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.

I'm not sure you follow the 2nd rule. No offense. The second rule says that if you are going to screw with the reader, you must screw with the detective.
Will is the detective. If Bern screwed with Will, she could have screwed with the reader.

[quote]Now let's suppose for a while that Bern wanted to make Will think that Shannon and Kanon are the same person. Does that make sense?
Imho it doesn't... at all.

-First off it would be pointless, Will is not the kind of person that would fall for a trick like that, and since he never mentioned shkanon, if Bern was pulling a joke it fell flat.

Not working=Not trying? That's not an argument against it. Besides, Will could have thought of it but said nothing.

-Second It didn't make any sense with Bern's purpose. She wanted Will to find the truth and expose it, she didn't want to make him stray from it.

She is sadistic enough to want to watch him struggle while he does it.
Sort of a "I'm sure he will get through this, but it will be fun watching how he does it."

I can't see this as a trap for the characters at all. if it was a trap for the characters at least one character would fall for it. So far we have seen none. If no character falls for a red herring, then I'm sorry but that quite blatantly means that it's a trap meant for the readers alone.

They trick would be to pretending that they are both dead while they are both alive(at the time) which tricked characters for sure(if real).

Imagine this:

-Kanon wants to play dead
-Rudolf wants to get near his body
-Kanon then gets Shannon to pretend to be Kanon's dead body and Kanon appears beside him

That's the kind of trick Double Shkanon would account for.

1) Shannon kills Kanon and disguises as him. That way she can pretend she's dead while hiding Kanon's death and while being free to go around.
However this is basically shkanon. From the very beginning the shkanon theory assumed that one of the two died and the other was impersonating the dead. The personality theory was created very recently after EP6.
The only difference is that the time of death of either of the two is placed after the start of the game.

The biggest reason for it is to fake your own death. Killing your accomplice would be useless.

2) Shannon wants to kill someone but she needs an alibi. Therefore Kanon plays the role of Shannon to cover her. But then Kanon wouldn't have an alibi for himself. Isn't it a lot smarter to provide an alibi for each other? They just have to say "Kanon was with me" "Shannon was with me", that's good enough usually.

Other options do not really exist. It could be said that this trick can be used to create the illusion of the same person being in two different places at the same time, but it never happened! Such a trick was never used.

Lots of options exist. And how do you know it never happened? It's not so much being in two places at once as being able to switch between being dead and alive quite easily.

In conclusion I don't see any valid reason for this disguise unless someone died, which in my eyes it's still the old shkanon theory. I don't see any real point into disguising as someone that is still alive and in the same island.

If I'm missing something please tell me.

Again, the point is that it gives the culprit freedom to switch between dead and alive, escapes red, and allows for a lot of scenarios. All closed rooms can be explained with it, the Erika perspective can be explained with it, it explains more than natural Shkanon.

Again it's not perfect. But it does explain a lot, like the "This is a tale of 17 people" red.

Also, I want to compare it to a few Ellery Queen novels but I can't think of a way to explain why the 2 as 1 thing is so advantageous to the criminal without spoiling the novel's plot.

[Renall]

Go ahead and spoil, just use the spoiler tags and name the works by title.

There are a lot of logistical advantages to two people posing as two but with the option to pose as one. Consider the following:

• If there is a servant named Kanon and one named Shannon on the duty roster, at some point Natsuhi is going to want them both on duty at once and, probably, will want to see both at the same time at some point. Solo-Shkanon is screwed in this instance, and we must jump through hoops as to how Shkanon can accomplish something physically impossible. Double-Shkanon just has one person be Shannon and the other Kanon. Show up, let Natsuhi know what's up, go back to whatever you were doing. No one has to know about this deception to make it work, because it's not a "deception" as such until the pair makes it so.
• They have the option to switch places. I don't specifically know what benefit this would be other than perhaps information-gathering, but it would mean that e.g. "Kanon" does not have to leave the guesthouse to go to the mansion when Kanon is requested there. The "Shannon" at the mansion switches to Kanon and Kanon at the guesthouse switches to Shannon. This allows information flow between "Shannon" and "Kanon" that seems impossible, because in fact it is just one person reflecting on information learned as the other identity.
• They can each be the same person any time this is necessary. Let somebody see Kanon in the garden working, let somebody else see him in the hall. Of course they have to be careful about this so their location isn't blatantly contradictory, but otherwise it's potentially useful for completing tasks which require either "Shannon" or "Kanon."
• They can perfectly fake the death of one while allowing both to operate under an assumed-alive identity. If "Shannon" dies, both can become Kanon and keep switching places or appearing in different places as needed. "Kanon" can kill while Kanon is standing in full view of a witness, giving him an alibi.
• If one truly dies, the second has the option to continue on as either, and can use the corpse to pose as both (as long as they're some distance apart and discovered at different times, anyway). This would be the nuclear option.

Logistically this is all very useful in a way it simply cannot be for one person. That doesn't make it true or plausible (the why is still very much an open question, let alone how there's two people similar enough to pose as each other). But it is more plausible.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Will Wright

I'm not sure you follow the 2nd rule. No offense. The second rule says that if you are going to screw with the reader, you must screw with the detective.
Will is the detective. If Bern screwed with Will, she could have screwed with the reader.

That's exactly what I said. Then I explained why the idea that Bern was screwing with Will doesn't work. This rule cannot be overridden with an half assed explanation. If the trick on the detective just plainly smells just as a cover for a trick against the readers there's only the illusion of the 2nd rule being respected.

Originally Posted by Will Wright

Not working=Not trying? That's not an argument against it. Besides, Will could have thought of it but said nothing.

She is sadistic enough to want to watch him struggle while he does it.
Sort of a "I'm sure he will get through this, but it will be fun watching how he does it."

It doesn't work in my book. This smells like an excuse a mile away. It isn't just Will, there's been tons of shkanon hints. before Will there was Erika. Now you are really trying my patience as a reader if you think you can pass all of them for tricks against the detectives, when none of the detective falls or even mention it. And Why would all these Game Masters try to deceive the detectives about shkanon being true if this strategy keeps on failing?
Sorry I'm not buying it.

Originally Posted by Will Wright

They trick would be to pretending that they are both dead while they are both alive(at the time) which tricked characters for sure(if real).

Imagine this:

-Kanon wants to play dead
-Rudolf wants to get near his body
-Kanon then gets Shannon to pretend to be Kanon's dead body and Kanon appears beside him

That's the kind of trick Double Shkanon would account for.

I don't get what you mean at all. Rudolf sees a dead Kanon and a Kanon alive next beside him? What's the point?

Originally Posted by Will Wright

Lots of options exist. And how do you know it never happened? It's not so much being in two places at once as being able to switch between being dead and alive quite easily.

I totally don't get what you mean Will. If Kanon wants to fake his death while still being able to run around, then the best strategy is to kill Shannon and disguise her as Kanon while disguising himself as Shannon (assuming they are look-alike).
A person that looks like you running around is just a liability, it just risks to make the plan fail.

If there is a servant named Kanon and one named Shannon on the duty roster, at some point Natsuhi is going to want them both on duty at once and, probably, will want to see both at the same time at some point. Solo-Shkanon is screwed in this instance, and we must jump through hoops as to how Shkanon can accomplish something physically impossible. Double-Shkanon just has one person be Shannon and the other Kanon. Show up, let Natsuhi know what's up, go back to whatever you were doing. No one has to know about this deception to make it work, because it's not a "deception" as such until the pair makes it so.

This doesn't explain why they need to switch places at all. it just explains how it's more convenient than shkanon, but that's not the point, because if shkanon exist it exists because some circumstances made it necessary not because it was more convenient.

They have the option to switch places. I don't specifically know what benefit this would be other than perhaps information-gathering, but it would mean that e.g. "Kanon" does not have to leave the guesthouse to go to the mansion when Kanon is requested there. The "Shannon" at the mansion switches to Kanon and Kanon at the guesthouse switches to Shannon. This allows information flow between "Shannon" and "Kanon" that seems impossible, because in fact it is just one person reflecting on information learned as the other identity.

If you are assuming there is this flow of information the swap is meaningless. Shannon doesn't need to be Kanon to have access to information that only Kanon would get and vice versa. This would work better if there wasn't a flow of information between the two, but then you need to imagine they are not accomplice and then they could get in each other way.

They can each be the same person any time this is necessary. Let somebody see Kanon in the garden working, let somebody else see him in the hall. Of course they have to be careful about this so their location isn't blatantly contradictory, but otherwise it's potentially useful for completing tasks which require either "Shannon" or "Kanon."

Again if you assume a perfect accord between Shannon and Kanon they just need to ask the other to perform the task only he or she can perform, there wouldn't be any need to become the other.
As to show the same person in two places at the same time, it's a trick that was never hinted once. If such a trick existed how come it was never seen?

They can perfectly fake the death of one while allowing both to operate under an assumed-alive identity. If "Shannon" dies, both can become Kanon and keep switching places or appearing in different places as needed. "Kanon" can kill while Kanon is standing in full view of a witness, giving him an alibi.

Totally unnecessary. Two people that looks like Kanon (or Shannon) running around is more a liability than an advantage. And if the one that faked his/her own death needs to stay put and not be seen, then you can do it by yourself, you don't need a look-alike.

If one truly dies, the second has the option to continue on as either, and can use the corpse to pose as both (as long as they're some distance apart and discovered at different times, anyway). This would be the nuclear option.

Already covered this. This is the only reasonable advantage I see.

[Leafsnail]

Double Shkannon has the edge in solving the end of ep6, too. That way, Battler's thoughts aren't lying to us ("Kanon is in the other room" would be a legitimate red) and, as far as I can tell, he never said that Kanon didn't exist in the other room after the logic error...

It'd also make ep4 trivial (let's say the dead body by the well was actually "Kanon dressed up as Shannon". Then the "who died last" and the "who was Battler talking to" mysteries can easily be solved).

So... very useful, makes no real sense. Come to think of it, this is pretty much the same thing as "culprit X".

[Renall]

Jan-Poo, you're far too ready to dismiss something without a particularly valid objection. I don't like it, but I do dislike it less than Single-Shkanon, because it addresses many of the logistical problems Shkanon would otherwise have. You're right to ask why this is necessary, but you completely fail to grasp how useful the ability is for two people assuming there is some reason they have to want to set it up.

You clearly missed the point on the information thing. I'm not suggesting Shannon and Kanon have perfect information transfer. What I'm saying is that, by this theory, Shannon could observe something in a scene and overhear some dialogue. Later, we see Kanon thinking about or talking about information only Shannon should have heard. Solo-Shkanon would argue this is because there's just one person anyway, but then runs into personality problems etc. Double-Shkanon would interpret this as a hint that the "Kanon" we see in that scene is the "Shannon" we saw in the previous scene.

As to trading off, it's as easy as a phone call.

And I don't think you grasp the value of "two places at once." If it were obvious, it would give it away to the people being deceived. What we need to look for is not Kanon or Shannon being in two places at the exact same time, but Kanon or Shannon moving from one location to another without seeming to invest the time or effort required to actually move between those places in a reasonable amount of time. Will Wright says there are instances of this in ep2, but I haven't seen his notes so I couldn't say.

And if you think it's "unnecessary" to have two people running around as one, vs. one person required to account for two (one of whom has to be dead), I question your ability to see the benefits. There are extreme advantages to having two of the same person when a corpse is assumed. Imagine how easy it is to get someone to let their guard down when they see it's "only" Kanon instead of seeing Shannon (or Beatrice or some other person) who "ought to be dead."

[Will Wright]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's exactly what I said. Then I explained why the idea that Bern was screwing with Will doesn't work. This rule cannot be overridden with an half assed explanation. If the trick on the detective just plainly smells just as a cover for a trick against the readers there's only the illusion of the 2nd rule being respected.

Dine's rule works like this:
Trickery is only acceptable if both the detective and the reader have equal chance of seeing through the trick. The detective has no obligation to share his discovery with the reader. There is no illusion of the 2nd rule being respected here.

This is what the second rule is about. A trick can only be placed on the reader if the same trick is applied to the detective and both have the same chance of seeing through the trick.

For example,

Spoiler for Ellery Queen Novel:

Egyptian Cross Mystery...Has a similar thing. The detective is somewhat tricked, and you have to realize yourself that he was tricked.

...Going off topic.

It doesn't work in my book. This smells like an excuse a mile away. It isn't just Will, there's been tons of shkanon hints. before Will there was Erika. Now you are really trying my patience as a reader if you think you can pass all of them for tricks against the detectives, when none of the detective falls or even mention it. And Why would all these Game Masters try to deceive the detectives about shkanon being true if this strategy keeps on failing?
Sorry I'm not buying it.

Feel free not to buy it.
But if you want me to try to convince you, I will. This is the multiple layer strategy mystery writers use. First, set up impossible scenario. That's phase 1. Then, set up near-okay solution. That's phase 2. Then set up the truth behind the near-okay solution. That's phase 3.

I would like to cite the

Spoiler for Agatha Christie Novel:

A.B.C Murders

as evidence for that kind of plot.

Moreover, those tons of Shkanon hints have lots of objections against it as well. That an alternative Shkanon that covers those holes exist should be expected.

I don't get what you mean at all. Rudolf sees a dead Kanon and a Kanon alive next beside him? What's the point?

Let me try again.
Kanon fakes death.
Rudolf and Shannon see the body.
Rudolf now thinks Shannon can't be the body. Minutes later, he sees Shannon's body(which was Kanon pretending to die) and then suspects Kanon of faking his death. But then he sees two "bodies" and concludes they must be dead.

I totally don't get what you mean Will. If Kanon wants to fake his death while still being able to run around, then the best strategy is to kill Shannon and disguise her as Kanon while disguising himself as Shannon (assuming they are look-alike).
A person that looks like you running around is just a liability, it just risks to make the plan fail.

It doesn't. This plan allows them to take turns being the body, and keeping one of them free to move while giving the other an alibi. It's a bit like...Hmm, let me try to find an analogy here. May I use a chess analogy?

This doesn't explain why they need to switch places at all. it just explains how it's more convenient than shkanon, but that's not the point, because if shkanon exist it exists because some circumstances made it necessary not because it was more convenient.

Shkanon can't exist until a few contradictions are cleared up. If single Shkanon exists, it would be a plot hole. Let's assume Ryuukishi is competent. Therefore single Shkanon doesn't work without contradicting his own rules.

Again if you assume a perfect accord between Shannon and Kanon they just need to ask the other to perform the task only he or she can perform, there wouldn't be any need to become the other.
As to show the same person in two places at the same time, it's a trick that was never hinted once. If such a trick existed how come it was never seen?

Episode 5. Shannon and Kanon are seen at the same place. How would that be possible without them being two different people?
My argument goes like this:
It's impossible for them to be the same person. Therefore they are different people. However, Kanon must be Shannon in order to escape the locked room in the second game. Therefore they are different people who switch identities freely. As for hints, it's a process of elimination. This is the only logical conclusion we can arrive at, therefore it is the truth.
Shannon's body at the first Twilight.
Kanon being there when her body was discovered.
Episode 5.
Episode 6's logic error.

Moreover, as for "claiming" a name...Here comes a cheap blue.
Shannon and Kanon have already talked about giving each other things before as they are brother and sister. Therefore I propose the name wasn't claimed, but given! An exchange is expected between two people conspiring about murder! Therefore Shannon did not "claim" Kanon's name, she was given it!

Totally unnecessary. Two people that looks like Kanon (or Shannon) running around is more a liability than an advantage. And if the one that faked his/her own death needs to stay put and not be seen, then you can do it by yourself, you don't need a look-alike.

Let me put it this way:
2 people have a better chance murdering 15 people than only 1 person would have. It's fine to have objections against it, but do you really not see the advantages here?

EDIT:

Will Wright says there are instances of this in ep2, but I haven't seen his notes so I couldn't say.

There is one questionable scene in ep 2, I still have to double check it myself as I kinda forgot where it was and my notes are in my other computer. I'm going over it one more time as we speak though, so I'll post once I see it.

[ameskitty]

Shannon's BSOD being Bern's twist/lie to lead Will and readers towards Shkanon isn't that ridiculous of an idea, because you need something similar for Shkanon to be the answer in the first place.

If Shkanon is indeed the answer, you have to explain the fact that Erika seems to recognize Shannon and Kanon as separate entities without any questions and that she gathered everybody in one room multiple times in EP5, without noticing or pointing out that somebody was "missing", despite being an obnoxiously talented and observant detective. One of the best ways I heard to explain this was that Bern was screwing with Erika.

Why would she lie to Erika? Well, aside from her generally being a giant jerk to her pieces, she doesn't have a lot of reason. She wants to solve the mystery, right?

In my opinion, she has a lot more personal incentive to watch Will stumble around when she already knows the answer than she does to mess with Erika when she doesn't and needs her insight (well, supposedly, I guess).

By the way, if there was another explanation for that scene, please remind me of it - I was just trying to make the parallel because the two situations are really similar.

[Will Wright]

Originally Posted by ameskitty

Shannon's BSOD being Bern's twist/lie to lead Will and readers towards Shkanon isn't that ridiculous of an idea, because you need something similar for Shkanon to be the answer in the first place.

If Shkanon is indeed the answer, you have to explain the fact that Erika seems to recognize Shannon and Kanon as separate entities without any questions and that she gathered everybody in one room multiple times in EP5, without noticing or pointing out that somebody was "missing", despite being an obnoxiously talented and observant detective. One of the best ways I heard to explain this was that Bern was screwing with Erika.

Why would she lie to Erika? Well, aside from her generally being a giant jerk to her pieces, she doesn't have a lot of reason. She wants to solve the mystery, right?

In my opinion, she has a lot more personal incentive to watch Will stumble around when she already knows the answer than she does to mess with Erika when she doesn't and needs her insight (well, supposedly, I guess).

By the way, if there was another explanation for that scene, please remind me of it - I was just trying to make the parallel because the two situations are really similar.

Bern screwing with Erika would not be allowed because that would contradict the fact that the detective is supposed to be a reliable viewpoint.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

It's funny, just today I thought of Double Shkannon, too.
It just keeps hanging itself at one certain red truth that works very much in favour of Shkannon, but poses a problem with double Shkannon.　It's not really cancelling it out, but it again requires more double thinking than one would suspect and maybe more than is necessary:

嘉音の名を名乗ることが出来るのは本人のみ！　異なる人間が名乗ることは出来ない！(To take on the name Kanon is something that only the real person can do! A different human could never do that!)

If we were to assume that there were two people that both carry the name Kanon, then it could work. It would be a little like the additional switch between Mion and Shion before the events of Higurashi...nobody expects it and the hints are small but it explains a lot more...
Yet I'm still not completely sold on that one, because I wouldn't see how both Yasu/Shannon/Kanon and Shannon/Kanon could carry the name Kanon with this being a lesser infringement than any other person assuming that name.

But it would explain some stuff in Episode 2. Like Beatrice summoning Kanon and mocking Shannon with it, or especially Genji saying to Battler that お館様達 (the masters of this house) would like to see him.

Kanon is an assumed name, much like how Battler beat through the illusion of Kinzo in episode 4. Since "Kanon" is no one's true name, all one needs to do is be someone who was given the name "Kanon" before the family conference. If we use double Shkannon, then we overcome that hurdle.

[Disz]

lol Will,let me explain it because the way you explain your theory is very confusing and looks self contradicting.


Here's an example:

Spoiler for Theory:

Kannon and Shannon want Rudolf to think Kannon died.Kannon fakes his death,and is now free to kill anyone.
Now,if the family thought that Shannon and Kannon were the same person,wouldn't it confuse them to see Shannon standing right next to them?
Then they would believe this body is a fake.
Next they see a fake Shannon body later on in the story after she decides to leave,after just seeing a Kannon body.
Logically,1 cannot disguise as the other if they're both ''dead'',so then they can both go around killing people without being suspected because they are both ''dead'' after all.

ALSO,the main trick is a little something like this,which is actually pretty smart,but I can't say I'm sure I buy it just yet:
Family and Shannon find Kannon body.
Kannon is still alive and Shannon is talking with family.Sooner or later,Shannon meets with Kannon alone and switches places.The ''Shannon'' with the family is now actually Kannon.Now lets say the real Shannon killed someone after this.You can say in red that Shannon just killed someone,but at the same time ''Shannon'' has an alibi because she's with the family.
Take notice of the quotation marks.

But alas,every theory has it's holes:
1.If there were to be a situation in which they both faked death,how in the hell could they still have fake bodies?
2.It seems to make much more sense if you're thinking Meta-Wise.It's only purpose is the dodge the red,but in a real life senario there would be no reason for Shannon to switch with Kannon after faking that he was dead.Unless you say that the family just told the people there including Shannon where they are going and what is their plan,and she decides to switch with Kannon so she can counter them.Then again she could just TELL Kannon.
3.I really have no memory of Shannon having anytime to switch with Kannon,unless you suspect that in EP2 when Shannon,George and Gohda left,Kannon switched with her.But that's only if you want to suspect fatman(that's fair) and Gohda(Don't you dare).

[TehChron]

All four question arcs are treated as individual "games" on the meta level. Therefore, the main trick being used to fool the limitations and views of those on the meta board makes sense.

[Disz]

Originally Posted by TehChron

All four question arcs are treated as individual "games" on the meta level. Therefore, the main trick being used to fool the limitations and views of those on the meta board makes sense.

Then explain how Erika makes sense! D:

[ArcticHelm]

A double Shkanon confuses my ability to make sense of anything involving the trap-twins or butterfly broach/miracle of magic. ( ` ~`)

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Disz

Then explain how Erika makes sense! D:

Shes a corpse that functions as the detective in one of the games, and the apparent culprit in another.

I challenge you, good sir, to explain how Erika makes sense.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by ArcticHelm

A double Shkanon confuses my ability to make sense of anything involving the trap-twins or butterfly broach/miracle of magic. ( ` ~`)

Actually it perfectly explains Zepar and Furfur, just not a lot of what they say.

[Will Wright]

Originally Posted by Disz

lol Will,let me explain it because the way you explain your theory is very confusing and looks self contradicting.


Here's an example:

Spoiler for Theory:

Kannon and Shannon want Rudolf to think Kannon died.Kannon fakes his death,and is now free to kill anyone.
Now,if the family thought that Shannon and Kannon were the same person,wouldn't it confuse them to see Shannon standing right next to them?
Then they would believe this body is a fake.
Next they see a fake Shannon body later on in the story after she decides to leave,after just seeing a Kannon body.
Logically,1 cannot disguise as the other if they're both ''dead'',so then they can both go around killing people without being suspected because they are both ''dead'' after all.

ALSO,the main trick is a little something like this,which is actually pretty smart,but I can't say I'm sure I buy it just yet:
Family and Shannon find Kannon body.
Kannon is still alive and Shannon is talking with family.Sooner or later,Shannon meets with Kannon alone and switches places.The ''Shannon'' with the family is now actually Kannon.Now lets say the real Shannon killed someone after this.You can say in red that Shannon just killed someone,but at the same time ''Shannon'' has an alibi because she's with the family.
Take notice of the quotation marks.

But alas,every theory has it's holes:
1.If there were to be a situation in which they both faked death,how in the hell could they still have fake bodies?
2.It seems to make much more sense if you're thinking Meta-Wise.It's only purpose is the dodge the red,but in a real life senario there would be no reason for Shannon to switch with Kannon after faking that he was dead.Unless you say that the family just told the people there including Shannon where they are going and what is their plan,and she decides to switch with Kannon so she can counter them.Then again she could just TELL Kannon.
3.I really have no memory of Shannon having anytime to switch with Kannon,unless you suspect that in EP2 when Shannon,George and Gohda left,Kannon switched with her.But that's only if you want to suspect fatman(that's fair) and Gohda(Don't you dare).

Okay thanks, that fits what I meant to say better. Now...

Spoiler:

1.That situation didn't happen until episode 4, in which case we conclude that if this theory is true, then Nanjo is an accomplice. Before that they could have been using Jessica's body for Shannon, and cutting George's legs to make him look like a midget and dressed him like Kanon.
Or they just never had a situation like that.
But I will go for any situation that ridicules George.

2.Maybe something like "Kanon disguised himself as Shannon so that George would let his guard down. Shannon did the same thing with Jessica. Jessica fell for it because she is a moron. George fell for it because he was raised in the jungle."
Would adequately explain why they would switch places like that.
Also switching places would explain George meeting Shannon after her "death" briefly during 3. He was like "HEY SHAN-Kanon why are you wearing a dre-why I am I bleeding? I thought I was made of pure fat-OH GOD IT HURTS"

Switching gives them alibis.
"This crime couldn't have been done by Shannon, because I saw Shannon somewhere else!"
(But that was not, in fact, Shannon.)

Things like that. It could also be "one of them must be framed for the murders" in which case even the love duel would be explained. The winner gets to love and stuff, the loser goes to jail.

3.For EP2, Kanon could just have dressed up as Shannon and walked. At that point there were two Shannons walking. Then when Gohda, Shannon and George were being chased by psycho Shannon(Kanon) who had a...Machine gun? Gohda was killed as he bravely fought psycho kanon, but he refused to use his magical jacket for such petty things like saving lives. Then psycho Kanon also killed Jessica. At that point, a body switch was possible.

...There is an earlier time for a body switch, but that's in my damn notes that I can't go get until sunday. I might as well just start re-reading ep 2.

[Disz]

Alright.I agree now that it makes sense.


@TehChron:
You're evil.

[Will Wright]

Shes a corpse that functions as the detective in one of the games, and the apparent culprit in another.

I challenge you, good sir, to explain how Erika makes sense.

I'll take you up on that.
Like Battler demonstrated, the game can change from one setup to another. That includes the number of humans and other variables. For Erika to exist, all that was needed was the game master to move a piece towards the beach she ended up in and saved her life, saving her before the start of the game.

If we interpret the game to only start when the letter is received, such possibility exists. Therefore, Erika who did not affect episodes 1-4 is alive in 5 and 6.

Erika is a master key. That's all she is. As for her killing people in episode 6, I can counter that with "It wasn't mentioned whether the people she killed were human. She could have killed their identities" or even "Since she confessed, then their deaths were not a mystery. If their deaths weren't a mystery, then they are not limited by Dine's 12th and as such her intervention in the game, while changing its result, is still a legal move for her. Moreover, since Dine stated that there must be a detective, we can assume that the regular murders would still have taken place had the game not been suspended by then.

Therefore we can assume that Battler was again the detective for episode 6 and Erika was just The Loony. You know, that player that appears in every tabletop rpg ever just to act insane.

How is that?

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Will Wright

Okay thanks, that fits what I meant to say better. Now...

Spoiler:

1.That situation didn't happen until episode 4, in which case we conclude that if this theory is true, then Nanjo is an accomplice. Before that they could have been using Jessica's body for Shannon, and cutting George's legs to make him look like a midget and dressed him like Kanon.
Or they just never had a situation like that.
But I will go for any situation that ridicules George.

2.Maybe something like "Kanon disguised himself as Shannon so that George would let his guard down. Shannon did the same thing with Jessica. Jessica fell for it because she is a moron. George fell for it because he was raised in the jungle."
Would adequately explain why they would switch places like that.
Also switching places would explain George meeting Shannon after her "death" briefly during 3. He was like "HEY SHAN-Kanon why are you wearing a dre-why I am I bleeding? I thought I was made of pure fat-OH GOD IT HURTS"

Switching gives them alibis.
"This crime couldn't have been done by Shannon, because I saw Shannon somewhere else!"
(But that was not, in fact, Shannon.)

Things like that. It could also be "one of them must be framed for the murders" in which case even the love duel would be explained. The winner gets to love and stuff, the loser goes to jail.

3.For EP2, Kanon could just have dressed up as Shannon and walked. At that point there were two Shannons walking. Then when Gohda, Shannon and George were being chased by psycho Shannon(Kanon) who had a...Machine gun? Gohda was killed as he bravely fought psycho kanon, but he refused to use his magical jacket for such petty things like saving lives. Then psycho Kanon also killed Jessica. At that point, a body switch was possible.

...There is an earlier time for a body switch, but that's in my damn notes that I can't go get until sunday. I might as well just start re-reading ep 2.

Hrm, I also have a theory that may work:

Spoiler:

The reason why PsychoShannon and Kanon decide to set it up to begin with is because they both wanted Battler so bad it hurt. Kanon realized how vapid and useless Jessica is, and Shannon finally had something resembling a real man coming into her midst.

Episode 1 confirms that Battler made Kanon consider going homo, if only for a brief second:


I mean, in all honesty, is it any wonder that Battler is nigh-unsurpassed in regards to sheer sexual magnetism for this story? Even Ronove tries to get in on that action.

It's of no real surprise that Shannon and Kanon would drop their dead-end partners as soon as they got an eye on a better option. The true meaning of the love duel was not so much to determine which of the three couples could exist...But to see which one of them (Beato, Shannon, Kanon) would be allowed to survive and shack up with Battler.

When something better came along, it became a simple matter to discard the inferior products...Like George.

[Will Wright]

Originally Posted by TehChron

Hrm, I also have a theory that may work:

Spoiler:

The reason why PsychoShannon and Kanon decide to set it up to begin with is because they both wanted Battler so bad it hurt. Kanon realized how vapid and useless Jessica is, and Shannon finally had something resembling a real man coming into her midst.

Episode 1 confirms that Battler made Kanon consider going homo, if only for a brief second:


I mean, in all honesty, is it any wonder that Battler is nigh-unsurpassed in regards to sheer sexual magnetism for this story? Even Ronove tries to get in on that action.

It's of no real surprise that Shannon and Kanon would drop their dead-end partners as soon as they got an eye on a better option. The true meaning of the love duel was not so much to determine which of the three couples could exist...But to see which one of them (Beato, Shannon, Kanon) would be allowed to survive and shack up with Battler.

When something better came along, it became a simple matter to discard the inferior products...Like George.

I seriously love that theory.