Psycho-Pass - Episode 14 Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

The technology and psychological-basis behind the Psycho-Pass readings themselves might be good and sound, I'll admit that. It's hard to say, because really, we don't know exactly what these readings are measuring (it honestly wouldn't surprise me if this is a major final twist given to us by Urobuchi in a future episode).

I'm honestly expecting at least one more "shoe to drop" when it comes to the Sibyl system. It's just a hunch I have, but it is a strong one. I'm expecting a scene analogous to the final minutes in Madoka Magica Episode 8.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Dengar

My point is, there is no blame to be put on the system. The system itself isn't the problem. The problem is the people who have allowed themselves to become so reliant on everything and so out of touch with reality, who feel content with giving away free will (because free will equals responsiblity, equals burden).

The Sibyl system is merely a system of measurement, it's the people who have used it in such a way that it turned society into a bunch of zombies. It didn't have to go that way. But it did go that way, because of people.

Going by a mechanistic interpretation of human nature, I'd say that it's not entirely their fault that they've been reduced to that point. Society is the very mechanism by which human acquire their values and preconceptions. Humans are susceptible to those socializing influences that come to make up their entire character. While it's easy to say that humans have the free will to allow themselves to not be subjected by the system, they are limited to whatever are choices offered by their own upbringing and values.

That said, on the entire whether Sybil is good or not argument, I'd say that it depends. If the priority is a stable society that promotes general happiness, then I think it's pretty good. But if the priority is something like individual freedom and self-actualization then of course it would seem abhorrent.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Qilin

Going by a mechanistic interpretation of human nature, I'd say that it's not entirely their fault that they've been reduced to that point. Society is the very mechanism by which human acquire their values and preconceptions. Humans are susceptible to those socializing influences that come to make up their entire character. While it's easy to say that humans have the free will to allow themselves to not be subjected by the system, they are limited to whatever are choices offered by their own upbringing and values.

I largely agree with this. And yes, it gets at the heart of the point I'm trying to convey to Dengar.

Some human beings may be special cases of people with an unusual aptitude for thinking outside their cultural and societal context (and even in those cases, there will tend to be at least some leanings or biases rooted in those cultural/societal contexts). But I don't think it's reasonable to hold your average human to that standard.

That said, on the entire whether Sybil is good or not argument, I'd say that it depends. If the priority is a stable society that promotes general happiness, then I think it's pretty good. But if the priority is something like individual freedom and self-actualization then of course it would seem abhorrent.

I appreciate that you're trying to be even-handed and "not take sides" here. But that being said, I don't know how anybody can watch this episode and find the Sibyl system to be impressively stable.

As smart and competent as he is, Makishima is nonetheless just one man. And he's an outlaw at that (i.e. it's not like he's in a position of great political power or direct social influence; he's not a popular revolutionary or wealthy celebrity). And yet, just look at the extent of the chaos and social unrest that he's brought to the world of Pyscho-Pass. Makishima has demonstrated how terribly exploitable the Sibyl system is. He's done this time and time again, with each "demonstration" representing new heights of horror and social unrest.

And there's nothing Makishima's done that strikes me as particularly hard to swallow. He's not quite as "over the top" as The Joker is, imo. And it's not like these cops are incompetent idiots. Actually, Kougami's guile and wits has been very impressive to me.

I seriously question the stability of any society that fails so spectacularly at handling one man like Makishima, even when they have pretty good cops working for them.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I seriously question the stability of any society that fails so spectacularly at handling one man like Makishima, even when they have pretty good cops working for them.

That's just the thing, isn't it? I meant my previous comment in the absence of a random wildcard like Makishima. He seems to me an element deliberately placed into the story just to highlight the flaws of the system. He's a character that conveniently exists outside the system thanks to some undisclosed flaw in the Psycho-Pass reading, so his actions don't really appeal to me as a natural consequence of such a system.

In a vacuum, an authoritarian society, though distasteful, certainly has its purposes, doesn't it? The one in Shin Sekai Yori comes to mind.

[Rosalena]

I watched the first two episodes of Psycho-Pass in the first two weeks . . . and promptly placed this show on the back burner for awhile. Two weeks ago I picked it up again and ran through all of the episodes in one sitting. Now I've joined all of you waiting impatiently each week for each new episode. I feel like a coi waiting for bread crumbs

This week's episode was chillingly brutal. The fact that no one even lifted a finger to help the woman as she was bludgeoned to death before their very eyes didn't bother me so much as her facial expression. The way her eyes jiggled (for lack of better word) and her eyelids tensed with each hit was masterfully done. I don't think I've ever watched an anime before and wanted a scene to hurry up and end so badly before. Well done, everyone, well done.

I was expecting the head of the Public Security Bureau to make an appearance after last week's credit scene, but alas, it appears we'll have to wait to figure out what their connection to each other is. From her appearance and reaction to seeing his face I would speculate that she is somehow related to Makishima (perhaps his mother?), but I just don't know. Something like that might be too obvious for Urobuchi.

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

(and it's not like people choose what their Psycho-Pass reading will be).

actually, it is. That's what the machines are measuring.

Also, saying that the system is flawed because Makishima can exploit it is like saying no system is perfect because everything can be destroyed. None of the current system we have today is perfect or at least as good as the Sibyl system.

One thing's for sure though, that society is too sheltered. They got everything handed to them on a plate. It's as if the government is one overly-protective parent.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

a system that quite clearly takes people's free will away.

People take people''s free will away.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Jailing people greatly reduces people's free will, after all.

I fail to see your point, should we stop jailing people today as well and let all criminals run free?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It jails people

People jail people.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

it kills people

people kill people.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Purely on the basis of their Psycho-Pass readings (and it's not like people choose what their Psycho-Pass reading will be). That is a major part of the Sibyl system. If you disagree with that (as I'm now very much inclined to do), then that is something to blame the Sibyl system itself for.

No it's not. It's like blaming a thermometor for giving you a fever. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Blaming people for this is like blaming a duck for walking and looking like a duck. What we're talking about here is part of human nature. If a system harms human society because it fails to properly account for inherent human failings then that is a flaw of the system itself. It is something that the system should be blamed for.

So you believe a mass murderer is asolved of all guilt because killing people is in his nature, got it!. (of course you don't, I'm not an idiot, suddenly when mass murderers are concerned, it's "different" isn't it?)

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, it's not. The Sibyl system is designed to kill and/or jail certain people. That is a key feature of the system; it is perfectly appropriate to judge the system, at least in part, by that feature.

The system is designed with a certain purpose in mind, but who put it to use? People.


Answer me THIS question. Does Sibyl pull the trigger, yes, or no?


I'm sorry if this sounds heated. But it feels like I'm being severely misunderstood here.


Is it really that hard to understand that it feels like you're blaming an inhuman object for the actions of people? I understand it comes natural to put the blame away from one's self, but is it really that virtuous to escape from one's responsibility?


I mean, what was all that exposition in Gino's episode even good for?

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Answer me THIS question. Does Sibyl pull the trigger, yes, or no?


I'm sorry if this sounds heated. But it feels like I'm being severely misunderstood here.

Come on, this is pointless. Nobody is absolving whoever came up with the system or whoever is upholding the system of any blame. All he's trying to say is that Sybil is a clear detriment to the expression of free will. It's not simply a matter of how it is used anymore. It's very existence is an obstacle to human freedom, though it's up to you if you think that's a good or bad thing.

Yes. People are the ones who pull the trigger, but it doesn't change the fact that there should be laws in restricting gun use for the sake of society's general safety.

[Dengar]

Is Hitler responsible for ALL the actions of ALL the Nazis?

And -I'm- saying that it all depends on how the system is used. Sibyl doesn't kill people. SOMEONE decided that people above a certain CC value should be exploded, and that someone is a person. (or group of people, before anyone gets nit picky)

"But it's Sibyl who tells you to kill someone lol derp". Yeah and who do you think made Sibyl do that? A person (or group of people lol derp)! Even more so, how does this absolve the one shooting of responsibility?


It's not like Sibyl is some kind of gun of which its only purpose is to kill people.


If you keep saying "well, it's human nature to become sheep" or something like that, that's like saying a guy with good publicity is at fault for humans being so weak-willed to begin with! People sure shift around repsonsibility real easily.


"Oh, but he was so charming, I couldn't help but believe every word he said."

Don't make laugh. Or cry. Yes, don't make me cry.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Is Hitler responsible for ALL the actions of ALL the Nazis?

And -I'm- saying that it all depends on how the system is used. Sibyl doesn't kill people. SOMEONE decided that people above a certain CC value should be exploded, and that someone is a person. (or group of people, before anyone gets nit picky)

"But it's Sibyl who tells you to kill someone lol derp". Yeah and who do you think made Sibyl do that? A person (or group of people lol derp)! Even more so, how does this absolve the one shooting of responsibility?


It's not like Sibyl is some kind of gun of which its only purpose is to kill people.


If you keep saying "well, it's human nature to become sheep" or something like that, that's like saying a guy with good publicity is at fault for humans being so weak-willed to begin with! People sure shift around repsonsibility real easily.


"Oh, but he was so charming, I couldn't help but believe every word he said."

Don't make laugh. Or cry. Yes, don't make me cry.

You're talking as if "responsibility" was some real thing that you can attribute with certainty to any one thing. In actuality, it's simply a societal construct that makes it easier for the law to attribute "blame", whatever that even means. There are obviously very objective standards by which the law judges accountability for specific behavior, but I'm in no way referring to such things.

Well, I don't know. You seem to have an optimistic outlook towards human nature based on your arguments, and I can't fault you for that. Still, let me just say that humans are pretty much organic machines that are made up of the sum of environmental & genetic factors. No more no less. As such, I don't really see the need for such a complicated dichotomy.

[Ultramarinus]

As some have pointed out, the episode was a rather shocking yet effective way to demonstrate the bystander effect that's prevalent in today's societies. The era that the series takes place in, people have gone even further down the road and more detached from the events taking place amongst them. Sibyl is also to blame but I think it was also intended to warn us since high-profile incidents like the one in China 2 years ago. We're already going down that way without any Sibyl.

And man, leave it to Production IG to shock and awe when it comes down to death scenes. The opening was brutal enough and then just top practically anything mainstream. Disturbed yet admired at the same time, I don't think the issue could be delivered to the audience any better than that.

Though I gotta say, I'm getting more and more agitated to see our leads insisting at using dominators to the point that it challenges their perceived competence. What were they going to do if the guy decided to fight then flight, he certainly had the tools for it. Heck, the pile of masks would be enough to burn down their whole HQ. I was especially upset at how they handled Makishima & Akane encounter as it was rather foolish to hang on to the dominator till the very bitter end even though the fact kept slapping her in the face, now their whole group is carrying the idiot ball.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Answer me THIS question. Does Sibyl pull the trigger, yes, or no?

I mean, what was all that exposition in Gino's episode even good for?

Wasn't that the episode where it's stated they have humans pulling the trigger because they don't trust sibyl's judgement to be accurate 100% of the time.

So really,even the ones who created it don't trust it completely.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Qilin

That's just the thing, isn't it? I meant my previous comment in the absence of a random wildcard like Makishima. He seems to me an element deliberately placed into the story just to highlight the flaws of the system.

I agree. Now, why would an author use a character like that? Could it be that he wants to highlight the flaws of the system because he thinks that the system gives people a false sense of security?

Suppose the Sibyl system is meant to be a metaphor for some sort of societal system that exists in real life. If so, then by having Makishima continually exploit all of Sibyl's flaws the potential is there for compelling social commentary pertaining to whatever it is that Sibyl is meant to be a metaphor for.

He's a character that conveniently exists outside the system thanks to some undisclosed flaw in the Psycho-Pass reading, so his actions don't really appeal to me as a natural consequence of such a system.

But he doesn't exist outside the system. I mean, he was born and raised in the world of Psycho-Pass just like everybody else in that world was. Even if he was a genetic experiment gone horribly wrong, he's still a part of the world of Psycho-Pass. Even if he has chosen to exist outside the system as much as possible, that is a choice rooted in his experience within the system.

Now, I'm not yet sure if I'd say that Makishima is a "natural consequence of the Psycho-Pass system". But I do think that just about every reasonably advanced society will have particularly nasty criminal elements like Makishima rise up from time to time. And a good, thorough system should have back-ups in place to deal with such outliers. If such a system doesn't have that, then any stability the system may grant is no more secure than a house of cards. A good, stiff wind in the form of a Makishima is all it takes to send those cards flying...

In a vacuum, an authoritarian society, though distasteful, certainly has its purposes, doesn't it?

Sure. I don't doubt that stability is the goal. And perhaps great stability was in fact achieved. But in the specific case of the Sibyl system, there's nothing in place for dealing with outliers. And that's a failing of the system, imo.

Originally Posted by jeroz

actually, it is.

People choose their own Psycho-Pass reading? Of course they don't. If they did, nobody would ever "choose" the reading of a latent criminal.

Also, saying that the system is flawed because Makishima can exploit it is like saying no system is perfect because everything can be destroyed.

Well yeah. That's much of my point. Because no system is perfect, there should be backups or fail-safes in place for when the system fails. And the Sibyl system has no such backups in place. This episode made that abundantly clear.

Originally Posted by Dengar

No it's not. It's like blaming a thermometor for giving you a fever. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Ok, let's work with this analogy. Let's say you have a system called "Fever Father".

The Fever Father system was designed to catch fevers (and the common cold) before they can happen! So every day that people go to work, they get a Fever Father scan. If the scan comes back "Healthy", those people are allowed to go to work. If the scan comes back "Unhealthy", those people are immediately quarantined and given medical treatment until their Fever Father rating goes down to "Healthy" levels.

The result? Well, less sickness at work. Society seems healthier, literally so. Diseases are caught before they can spread through the workplace. But a lot of people spend a lot more time forced into quarantine because of it. Some people who ended up in forced quarantine several times a year, often for days at a time, become annoyed at this. It interferes greatly with them living their daily lives. Some might have even lost out on promotions at work due to being forced into quarantines during critical times at their place of work.

Would some of these people have ended up spreading the common cold around if they were allowed into the workplace? Probably. But would all of them? I have my doubts.

Who or what should these people blame for being quarantined so often? Should they blame themselves for being so susceptible to the common cold? Should they blame "people" in general for getting quarantined like this? Or should they blame the Fever Father system as it is the system used to determine if they get quarantined or not?


Oh, and one more thing - Viruses can adapt over time. So as the common cold keeps getting stamped out everywhere, viruses adapt in order to overcome the Fever Father system. So a sort of "new" Common Cold comes to the fore. The Fever Father system can't catch it! It can't register it properly. And people are now so used to relying on Fever Father to handle any and all minor health issues (like fevers and the common cold) that they don't have a clue in this world how to handle this new and nastier strain of the old Common Cold that eludes the Fever Father system. Alas, the Fever Father system has no backups in place for dealing with this virus evolution.

This new version of the Common Cold is given a name by a Dr. Kougami that's working to overcome it. It's named "the Makishima".

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Qilin

You're talking as if "responsibility" was some real thing that you can attribute with certainty to any one thing. In actuality, it's simply a societal construct that makes it easier for the law to attribute "blame", whatever that even means. There are obviously very objective standards by which the law judges accountability for specific behavior, but I'm in no way referring to such things.

Well, I don't know. You seem to have an optimistic outlook towards human nature based on your arguments, and I can't fault you for that. Still, let me just say that humans are pretty much organic machines that are made up of the sum of environmental & genetic factors. No more no less. As such, I don't really see the need for such a complicated dichotomy.

Let me put it this way, if I'm not responsible for my own actions, what's the point of doing anything at all? I'd just be at the mercy of external factors.

Originally Posted by totoum

Wasn't that the episode where it's stated they have humans pulling the trigger because they don't trust sibyl's judgement to be accurate 100% of the time.

So really,even the ones who created it don't trust it completely.

Uhhh, when did I ever say that its readings are perfectly accurate. I never said that at all.
What it does do, is contradict what people are saying: That Sibyl is responsible for everything, even though even the higher-ups acknowledge that human judgment is needed. The logic doesn't make sense.

[HandofFate]

when they were looking at the recording of the girl getting hammered, anyone else expected to see YouTube logo in the corner lol

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well yeah. That's much of my point. Because no system is perfect, there should be backups or fail-safes in place for when the system fails. And the Sibyl system has no such backups in place. This episode made that abundantly clear.

Ah. I get it. I was mostly talking about it in theory, as in, there's nothing wrong with what Sybil is trying to achieve from a ideological perspective, assuming you're going for total control or something like that. But I certainly can't deny that this turn of events is a blunder on the part of whoever is upholding the system.

Originally Posted by Dengar

Let me put it this way, if I'm not responsible for my own actions, what's the point of doing anything at all? I'd just be at the mercy of external factors.

What it does do, is contradict what people are saying: That Sibyl is responsible for everything, even though even the higher-ups acknowledge that human judgment is needed. The logic doesn't make sense.

Human judgment is a merely a safety net to watch out for anomalies like Makishima. It's pretty safe to safe to say that regular citizen aren't offered such luxuries, so it's not everything but nearly everything. I don't suppose you want to argue on that point, do you?

Originally Posted by Dengar

Let me put it this way, if I'm not responsible for my own actions, what's the point of doing anything at all? I'd just be at the mercy of external factors.

There you go talking about some object called "responsibility" again. What in the world is it?

But I guess this cuts deep into the source of our disagreement, doesn't it? I do, as a matter of fact, believe that we are at the mercy of external factors. The only sort of internal factor I'd acknowledge is genetics and heredity. Not to say that I'm at all deterministic, but I don't believe in the complete autonomy of man either. A sticking point though, is how humans can pretend that they have any real control over their own actions. I don't mean to discredit that, but it's a means by which we can justify our own existence.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Qilin

I do, as a matter of fact, believe that we are at the mercy of external factors.

Obviously something is keeping you from lying down and waiting for your pointless existence to end. Therefore, what you saying can't possibly be true.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Obviously something is keeping you from lying down and waiting for your pointless existence to end. Therefore, what you saying can't possibly be true.

I'm sorry. I'm confused as to the assumptions you seem to be going by. How the heck does that even refute my position to begin with?

Life is pointless. The universe is pointless. Existence is pointless. However, why should that stop me from living life as it is? Like I said, humans like to pretend otherwise to justify their existence in the face of such a nihilistic world view. I'm no different. I like to pretend that my decisions are my own, and that there are beautiful things in this world, and eventually that pretense evolves into a reality of its own within my subjective world.

If you can't grasp my perspective at this point, then I'm not sure if we should be arguing this in the first place.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Qilin

I'm sorry. I'm confused as to the assumptions you seem to be going by. How the heck does that even refute my position to begin with?

Life is pointless. The universe is pointless. Existence is pointless. However, why should that stop me from living life as it is? Like I said, humans like to pretend otherwise to justify their existence in the face of such a nihilistic world view. I'm no different.

I hope you realize that many humans, probably even most humans, sincerely reject that nihilistic worldview. Plenty of humans are not merely "pretending".

I don't believe that life is pointless or that existence is pointless.


That being said, no man is an island, so no man has complete and utter autonomy. We're all influenced by external factors to at least some degree. I would argue that for those who value "free will", the key is to ensure that such external factors are carefully managed so that they don't corrode free will away. And that's one of the dangers of the Sibyl system. The more humans cede control over to it, the less humans act on their own free will. Sibyl, as it currently exists and functions, has probably become too controlling for the good of humanity.

[Dengar]

But once you start making your own decisions, pretend or otherwise, there's no way you can make a mistake, point to someone or something else and say it's their fault. I mean, to "stop pretending" only when it becomes inconvenient to keep up your "charade"? Am I weird for thinking that's rather warped?