Ichigo and Rukia? or Ichigo and Orihime?

[Seda]

Originally Posted by Jaimie

This is a thread about Ichigo/Rukia and Ichigo/Orihime.

My vote goes to Ichigo/Rukia, of course.

Oh, ok... sorry about that. *goes to change it*

[Starwing]

It's curious that the English speaking population likes IchiHime more than usual. Is there something in the western upbringing that promotes this? Any ideas?

After reading some extremely intelligent posts on other forums, it seems the western society is all for pro-action, and winning love instead of just letting it go. That may be why the western society approves of what Orihime does, which can be considered a violation by eastern cultures.

Also, Orihime herself, physically, resembles a more typical caucasian ideal of beauty. Rukia is anything but. Perhaps that also (subconsciously) played a role? Westerners just aren't accustomed to Rukia's type of beauty, so naturally, they find Orihime more visually appealing.

The same can be said of Ichigo, with his neon hair. He is far more typically 'masculine' than say... Orihime's alternatives; Ishida and maybe Ulquiorra, etc. Or Chizuru...

And matching Ichigo with Orihime fits more with the western visual ideal for a couple? I don't know. It would be interesting to see if IchiHime fans are proportionally more caucasian.


It seems there's also a trend that Orihime lovers are either fans of shoujo (which I guess makes them more tolerant towards the girly type of characters) or boys. Many shounen fans can't appreciate her presence as the soft, shoujo character. Hm...

[Tyan]

Originally Posted by Starwing

It's curious that the English speaking population likes IchiHime more than usual. Is there something in the western upbringing that promotes this? Any ideas?

After reading some extremely intelligent posts on other forums, it seems the western society is all for pro-action, and winning love instead of just letting it go. That may be why the western society approves of what Orihime does, which can be considered a violation by eastern cultures.

Also, Orihime herself, physically, resembles a more typical caucasian ideal of beauty. Rukia is anything but. Perhaps that also (subconsciously) played a role? Westerners just aren't accustomed to Rukia's type of beauty, so naturally, they find Orihime more visually appealing.

The same can be said of Ichigo, with his neon hair. He is far more typically 'masculine' than say... Orihime's alternatives; Ishida and maybe Ulquiorra, etc. Or Chizuru...

And matching Ichigo with Orihime fits more with the western visual ideal for a couple? I don't know. It would be interesting to see if IchiHime fans are proportionally more caucasian.


It seems there's also a trend that Orihime lovers are either fans of shoujo (which I guess makes them more tolerant towards the girly type of characters) or boys. Many shounen fans can't appreciate her presence as the soft, shoujo character. Hm...

That's some interesting points you bring up there. First of all: I like Orihime very much, and I'm what you can call the romantic type. I like mushy stuff, as long as it's good mushy stuff.

And matching Ichigo with Orihime fits more with the western visual ideal for a couple? I don't know. It would be interesting to see if IchiHime fans are proportionally more caucasian.

Well, we have all seen a great difference in which couple the westerners like and which the Asians like. Ichi/Ruki is very popular both places, but Ichi/Ori is only popular in the west, it seems. Perhaps culture really affects the look on love and affection? Looks a bit like it.

[Aadi]

Originally Posted by Starwing

It's curious that the English speaking population likes IchiHime more than usual. Is there something in the western upbringing that promotes this? Any ideas?

After reading some extremely intelligent posts on other forums, it seems the western society is all for pro-action, and winning love instead of just letting it go. That may be why the western society approves of what Orihime does, which can be considered a violation by eastern cultures.

Also, Orihime herself, physically, resembles a more typical caucasian ideal of beauty. Rukia is anything but. Perhaps that also (subconsciously) played a role? Westerners just aren't accustomed to Rukia's type of beauty, so naturally, they find Orihime more visually appealing.

This is an interesting point, but I don't think you can make such a blanket statement. In fact, I have found that most westerners are more attracted to the "asian" build than the "western" build, giving Rukia the clear physical advantage (aside from those who go for the big breasts regardless...I don't think that's a factor here though). Rukia is da bomb! Orihime has a very, very attractive personality and she is very nice and I don't want to see her feelings hurt or ignored...but Rukia is still da bomb!!!

I think they've done a good job developing both characters; although, through the 50 or so episodes, I thought Orihime was a lesbian...which I thought was pretty bold...I was kind of disappointed when they dropped that relationship (aside from a brief, depressed, flash in ep 125).

Anyway...my fave match is Inu Yasha and Kagome, but this Ichigo and Rukia could quickly take it's place...Inu Yasha is taking way too long to get a clue...Ichigo seems to be just as clueless...that's just my 2 cents...

[Lendra-chan]

There have been many points and accusations of Rukia and Orihime as separate characters and characters in comparison.

In my opinion, Rukia and Orihime are very two different extremes of the same string. Like opposite sides of a coin. Many things point that out, not just physical appearances. Their attitudes are quite the opposite as well. I don't need to explain that, haha.

Orihime is very obvious with her feelings of affection [in regard to Ichigo anyway] where as Rukia [does she have any affections for Ichigo --I hope-- ] has shown to be subtle and hushed with her own - thus making it quite difficult to discern whether or not there is something there.

Also, we have to take into account that Rukia is much older than Orihime. She is going to be wiser, more experience, more mature. A little bit later rather than earlier in the series, Rukia begins to sort of tug Orihime along, just a bit. They had this void between one another. Like Ichigo, Rukia never really established a full out friendship with Orihime, and such a lack of explination and being left out of the full loop, I believe, had Orihime feeling jealous. Among other reasons too, of course. A lack of understanding. relationship, all of that sort of unraveled once Orihime and Rukia finally connected.

What I believe has people so drawn to Rukia's character is just how much she fits reality when it comes to actual people. There are quirks of her character that are melodramatic, but such idiosyncracies and sort of oxymoron [sort of - she's like a tomboy who openly wears dresses and loves bunnies -shrugs-] type of attributes just add to her affable flair.

She has control and rationality in intense situations, but she occasionally loses her ground and cracks from time to time. She has had an innocent side of her portrayed and her past is deep and heavy, but she wallows in it only when the time is right - the guilt and passion is her own burden, and she carries it splendidly. All of this is very realistic and relatable.

Orihime is a teenager. She's experiencing some of the roughest waters of her life - so it is expected for her to be rocky and unstable in many of her characteristics. It's no wonder she admires and is even jealous of Rukia. That's natural, just as Matsumoto said.

Rukia is not afraid to be rough. She isn't frightened of hurting people's feelings if that's what it takes to set them in line. Most of the time, what she says is true, even if it hurts. Orihime has a sugar coating around her. She's sweet by nature and thus, she doesn't want to speak ill of anyone.

They're two different extremes, so they're bound have two completely different sets of supports in all areas. Opinions, explinations, indications, you name it. They can't be compared on a level ground without unfair tweaks being made. :3

[Lendra-chan]

Originally Posted by Seda

Oh, ok... sorry about that. *goes to change it*

Lol, don't worry about that. :3 You can support any couple you want, just at least include yourself in an argument with facts, opinions and situations to back yourself up. <3

[Aadi]

Originally Posted by Lendra-chan

In my opinion, Rukia and Orihime are very two different extremes of the same string. Like opposite sides of a coin. Many things point that out, not just physical appearances. Their attitudes are quite the opposite as well.

I don't buy this whole opposite premise...they are quite similar, both passionate protectors of the weak; both passionate supporters Ichigo and friends; both honorable women with the highest levels of integrity. Opposites would point toward one being evil, one good; one smart, one dumb; one successful, one failure. That’s not what’s happening.

Remember, this is a different culture and their actions are appropriate within that culture. Also, Rukia has to control herself to a greater degree than Orihime, she is, after all a member of a prominent family…her actions would bring great dishonor to her family…she has a lot of pressure on her not act on, or express her feelings. Orihime doesn’t have the family pressures, but she still has the cultural pressures.

[Lendra-chan]

Originally Posted by Aadi

I don't buy this whole opposite premise...they are quite similar, both passionate protectors of the weak; both passionate supporters Ichigo and friends; both honorable women with the highest levels of integrity. Opposites would point toward one being evil, one good; one smart, one dumb; one successful, one failure. That’s not what’s happening.

Remember, this is a different culture and their actions are appropriate within that culture. Also, Rukia has to control herself to a greater degree than Orihime, she is, after all a member of a prominent family…her actions would bring great dishonor to her family…she has a lot of pressure on her not act on, or express her feelings. Orihime doesn’t have the family pressures, but she still has the cultural pressures.

My indication toward opposite wasn't in that direction. O: Those attributes weren't even in my mind set. XD What I was referring to were opposites on a bit less melodramatic scale. Rukia is stern and condescending, where Orihime is tender and humble. Things like that.

I understand where you're coming from though. I'm just attempting to view and observe them from different angles and catch points of similarity and points of discrepancy. Their characters are, quite obviously, not the same. So finding areas where you can relate the two is difficult at times without using outside sources like family or friends.

[niffum]

Originally Posted by Starwing

It's curious that the English speaking population likes IchiHime more than usual. Is there something in the western upbringing that promotes this? Any ideas?

Alo, Orihime herself, physically, resembles a more typical caucasian ideal of beauty. Rukia is anything but. Perhaps that also (subconsciously) played a role? Westerners just aren't accustomed to Rukia's type of beauty, so naturally, they find Orihime more visually appealing.

First off, this post is full of sweeping generalisations, for which I apologise in advance. Secondly, I don’t ship IchiOri, so I could be completely wrong with all of this.

I see your point about how finding it easier to identify with Orihime physically might come into play on some level but the impression I get from reading posts by IchiOri shippers is that her love for Ichigo is what touches them the most. Now, from what I gather, unrequited love is a fairly commonplace theme in many Asian cultures and can in some cases be viewed as a relatively positive emotion. Certainly, there isn’t any automatic assumption that the natural course of events is for it to be reciprocated at some point. In the West however, unrequited love isn’t really a very prominent theme, and when it does appear, it isn’t valorised in and for itself. Certainly in the modern English-speaking world, the assumption tends to be that if character A loves character B, and if there aren’t any obvious obstacles (such as B being married, or in a relationship, or dead), then by golly A deserves to get what they want! Love is supposed to conquer all, even indifference. Just ask Hollywood. And in Bleach, Ichigo is not unambiguously and uncontroversially ‘taken’. Even among those who support IchiRuki, there are those who see his falling in love with Rukia as a very probable future event, and those who see it as an already accomplished fact.

The other point (which I’m actually less sure about) is that there are any number of Asian tales in which a young man gets involved with a supernaturally inclined woman. Whether he’s pinching her robe while she bathes or being seduced by foxes or some other shape-shifting creature, the question of the woman’s age doesn’t really come up, other than she’s obviously much older than he is. I can’t really think of a Western equivalent to this (La Belle Dame sans Merci maybe, but that’s hardly a positive example). The fact that Rukia is much older than Ichigo, for all it doesn’t appear to bother anyone within Bleach, seems to be pretty off-putting to some (Western) fans.

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by Starwing

After reading some extremely intelligent posts on other forums, it seems the western society is all for pro-action, and winning love instead of just letting it go. That may be why the western society approves of what Orihime does, which can be considered a violation by eastern cultures.

Spoiler for the main problem with not watching the anime is not knowing when something's a spoiler...:

I'm not sure I really agree with you here. Orihime's actions with regards to her feelings aren't all that proactive. Sure, she accompanies Ichigo to SS and thus gets somewhat closer to him, and later visits him in his room while she's invisible and he's unconscious, but none of this really brings her feelings to his attention. She makes absolutely no attempt to show him that she loves him, in fact her boldest move (almost kissing him) is made when there's no chance of his finding out what she did. If anything, I'd say the stereotype she represents is that of of the patient lover who waits passively for their worth to be recognised and their feelings returned.

[Aadi]

Originally Posted by Lendra-chan

My indication toward opposite wasn't in that direction. O: Those attributes weren't even in my mind set. XD What I was referring to were opposites on a bit less melodramatic scale. Rukia is stern and condescending, where Orihime is tender and humble. Things like that.

I understand where you're coming from though. I'm just attempting to view and observe them from different angles and catch points of similarity and points of discrepancy. Their characters are, quite obviously, not the same. So finding areas where you can relate the two is difficult at times without using outside sources like family or friends.

Got ya, makes more sense from that aspect.

This show has a great deal of potential. They've established a good foundation to take it just about any direction and still have support of their growing fan base. My sincere hopes are that they go with Ichigo and Rukia, but the most likely reality is that they won't go with Ichigo and anyone...

[Alea Misa]

Originally Posted by niffum:
I'm not sure I really agree with you here. Orihime's actions with regards to her feelings aren't all that proactive. Sure, she accompanies Ichigo to SS and thus gets somewhat closer to him, and later visits him in his room while she's invisible and he's unconscious, but none of this really brings her feelings to his attention. She makes absolutely no attempt to show him that she loves him, in fact her boldest move (almost kissing him) is made when there's no chance of his finding out what she did. If anything, I'd say the stereotype she represents is that of of the patient lover who waits passively for their worth to be recognised and their feelings returned.

She isn't all that patient Niffum, she's been trying to take more initiative to get his attention and get Ichigo to notice her. Basically she tried to be more like Rukia, and her failed result is that Ichigo did not notice her nor look at her the same way he does Rukia. Inoue even got hurt trying to pull a stunt to 'help' Ichigo out in the battle. The only attention Inoue got from Ichigo was guilt, and that only made Ichigo feel even more depressed and scared about his "hollow" and question his own abilities and powers, along with his failure to protect Tatsuki and Chad as well. Inoue is trying to win Ichigo's attention and his affection, as Inoue thinks that it is what should be done, like Rukia did. Except the fact is that, Rukia didn't try to 'win' Ichigo's attention by being someone she isn't, she is simply who she is, and that is what has Ichigo's attention, close friendship, and affection.
Inoue tried to be someone she isn't, she doesn't even know where she belongs, who she is, nor does/did she accept her weaknesses and strengths. She may be able to tell some of the sufaces of moods and may be perceptive at times, but she lacks that independence and the strength to truly stand on her own two feet. However, this arc will give Inoue some experiences, as well as the entire group experience to get stronger so that they will be able to rely on each other.
It doesn't matter what it means for Eastern or Westrn culture and what not, that "stereotype" is changing about women on both sides of the globe. Rukia represents the new and changing "stereotype", and Inoue represents the older and traditional "stereotype." There will always be people who will find one or the other more likeable than the other.

Originally Posted by Starwing:
And matching Ichigo with Orihime fits more with the western visual ideal for a couple? I don't know. It would be interesting to see if IchiHime fans are proportionally more caucasian.

Hmm...well, everyone has their preferences. There are alot of caucasian and asian males who prefer the petite girl who has a cute face and a fiesty personality. There are also alot of caucasian and asian males who like large breasted women who are more gentle and passive nature. It really depends on the reasons. Some men like girls like Inoue because they are easier to handle and control. Some men like girls like Rukia because they like the dynamics the nature of someone like her could bring in the relationship, while being cute at the same time. lol...
This is from my own experiences with both sides, however.

[Starwing]

@niffum

I'm not sure I really agree with you here. Orihime's actions with regards to her feelings aren't all that proactive. Sure, she accompanies Ichigo to SS and thus gets somewhat closer to him, and later visits him in his room while she's invisible and he's unconscious, but none of this really brings her feelings to his attention. She makes absolutely no attempt to show him that she loves him, in fact her boldest move (almost kissing him) is made when there's no chance of his finding out what she did. If anything, I'd say the stereotype she represents is that of of the patient lover who waits passively for their worth to be recognised and their feelings returned.

Hm... you're right for the most part, but you must admit the act of 237 is bold. Somehow, I feel that 237 is one of the break or make point for how people viewed the IchiHime relationship.

Orihime was not invited, probably still wearing her shoes, makes a sweeping love confession and then holds his hand and tries to kiss him. Coming from an oriental society, I know this violated so much of the traditions of courtesy, proximity, humility and all that other stuff. If it was anyone other than Orihime, I might've hated them. I, personally, was never able to approve of what Orihime did. So for that chapter, I usually focus on the confession, which I found rather touching.

On the other hand, the western society has plenty of fairy tales with kissing unconscious princesses, eloping, Romeo spying on Juliet's bedroom (and wishes he was her glove... ugh), sweeping the girl off her feet. This whole pro-action stuff has filled our televisions and literature. They are also more open to touching and physical intimacy, so the hand holding and the kiss is not such a big deal. I've even heard several IchiHime fans wishing they did kiss, or saying that she simply felt nervous. --> I see where they're coming from, but I dunno, call me a traditionalist or whatever: I found that fundamentally wrong/uncomfortable/disturbing.

So I guess I was using my own experiences and making sweeping generalizations in a way. But it does bear thinking about.

Your point about the supernatural being (the celestial princess, the fox, the girl from the moon, the bamboo princess, the mountain spirit, etc,) is extremely interesting! This might be a possible explanation for the lack of "ugh, she's 10x older" arguments in Japan.


@Alea Misa,
Of course, I understand that I was making extremely generalized and possibly discriminating statements. ><'

But proportionally, a group of people is still vastly influenced by culture. If the culture finds tall, big-chested, sweet women attractive, then there will be a bigger portion of the population who shares this view. This doesn't mean they dislike other types, but really... how many famous oriental actresses/singers/models are out there? And those that do exist also has caucasian cheekbones -.-'... It's not hard to see what the western culture views as beautiful.

Hm... so I guess I meant that it's a matter of proportion. There will be a greater proportion of people who view Orihime attractive in western societies.

How people view Rukia is a completely different story that I should've addressed separately. Rukia's selling point is not usually her looks anyways, but her personality. There are so many fans who find her physically attractive as well, but if we ask them, most would say they were drawn by Rukia's character.


@Lendra-chan,
Rukia and Orihime are, at the cores, very similar. However, they give off completely different impressions and in their daily attitudes are almost 180.

I find it interesting how Orihime wants to be more like Rukia, and Rukia thought Miyako was her ideal. I've always viewed Miyako with a "Orihime-like" character in some ways, although we've not seen her at all.

[KAZE no TATSU]

Originally Posted by sorbet

Spoiler for spoiler:

From his action to attack Ulq in ch 270. They claimed he wouldn't lost his cool like that unless he felt something for Orihime

.

I know I been reading alot of posts that say stuff like that.. which to me is the IchiHime fans trying cling to the ever so fading IchiHime pairing.. I was like what.. are they for reals?? now listen carefully IchiHime fans...

Spoiler for manga:

when Ulquiorra told Ichi that Rukia was dead... Ichi had a shocked expression and said"...what did you say" he didn't believe him considering how Ulquiorra told him it's like he had a stats card of Rukia.. as Ulquiorra stated to Ichi about Rukia "...more accurately she and the 9th Espada killed each other... her entire body was slashed to ribbons and she was speared by a trident and couldn't have possibly survived." Ichis' decision was clear from the begining after everything is said and done he turns around and walks away saying he's going to save Rukia....... now when Ulquiorra told Ichigo about Inoue obviously he attacked beacuse of Ulquiorra, Inoue was branded as a traitor.. now lets say the same about Rukia..what do you think Ichigo would of done and apart of that he goes all out just to get to Rukia.. he doesn't hesitate to ask about Inoue or nothing related to Inoue hells'.. it looks like Ichi is not taking this rescue mission to heart like when he went to save Rukia Basically just re-read ch.270

Originally Posted by Alea Misa

She isn't all that patient Niffum, she's been trying to take more initiative to get his attention and get Ichigo to notice her. Basically she tried to be more like Rukia, and her failed result is that Ichigo did not notice her nor look at her the same way he does Rukia. Inoue even got hurt trying to pull a stunt to 'help' Ichigo out in the battle. The only attention Inoue got from Ichigo was guilt, and that only made Ichigo feel even more depressed and scared about his "hollow" and question his own abilities and powers, along with his failure to protect Tatsuki and Chad as well. Inoue is trying to win Ichigo's attention and his affection, as Inoue thinks that it is what should be done, like Rukia did. Except the fact is that, Rukia didn't try to 'win' Ichigo's attention by being someone she isn't, she is simply who she is, and that is what has Ichigo's attention, close friendship, and affection.
Inoue tried to be someone she isn't, she doesn't even know where she belongs, who she is, nor does/did she accept her weaknesses and strengths. She may be able to tell some of the sufaces of moods and may be perceptive at times, but she lacks that independence and the strength to truly stand on her own two feet. However, this arc will give Inoue some experiences, as well as the entire group experience to get stronger so that they will be able to rely on each other.
It doesn't matter what it means for Eastern or Westrn culture and what not, that "stereotype" is changing about women on both sides of the globe. Rukia represents the new and changing "stereotype", and Inoue represents the older and traditional "stereotype." There will always be people who will find one or the other more likeable than the other.

Took the words right out of my mouth* *
Agreed.. Inoue has the I don't know who I am dilema... plus she likes the guy, which is Ichi her methods of reaching Ichigo just don't seem to work and the reason she is jealous of Rukia is because she states how happy Rukia makes Ichi... and how she couldn't do a thing for him in other words she compares herself with Rukia.. to that effect I would say she would try to Immitate Rukias' methods to reach Ichi.. which still fail on her behalf.. but hey the story is still moving we don't know what Kubo-sensei has up his sleeve

*Plus Rukia Kicks Ass* ICHIRUKI ALL THE WAY

[SaraPandora27]

Originally Posted by Starwing

I find it interesting how Orihime wants to be more like Rukia, and Rukia thought Miyako was her ideal. I've always viewed Miyako with a "Orihime-like" character in some ways, although we've not seen her at all.

I beg to differ. From what I see (manga + anime), Miyako's character is closer to Unohana Retsu (4th Division Captain) in the way she speak, her calmness, gentleness and graceful outlook (While Unohana is always depicted as being calm, Miyako is more lively and dynamic).

Orihime's character is special in her own way. Some people mentioned about the similarities in their hairstyle but I disagree with that too.

[niffum]

Originally Posted by Alea Misa

She isn't all that patient Niffum, she's been trying to take more initiative to get his attention and get Ichigo to notice her. Basically she tried to be more like Rukia, and her failed result is that Ichigo did not notice her nor look at her the same way he does Rukia. Inoue even got hurt trying to pull a stunt to 'help' Ichigo out in the battle. The only attention Inoue got from Ichigo was guilt, and that only made Ichigo feel even more depressed and scared about his "hollow" and question his own abilities and powers, along with his failure to protect Tatsuki and Chad as well. Inoue is trying to win Ichigo's attention and his affection, as Inoue thinks that it is what should be done, like Rukia did. Except the fact is that, Rukia didn't try to 'win' Ichigo's attention by being someone she isn't, she is simply who she is, and that is what has Ichigo's attention, close friendship, and affection.
Inoue tried to be someone she isn't, she doesn't even know where she belongs, who she is, nor does/did she accept her weaknesses and strengths. She may be able to tell some of the sufaces of moods and may be perceptive at times, but she lacks that independence and the strength to truly stand on her own two feet. However, this arc will give Inoue some experiences, as well as the entire group experience to get stronger so that they will be able to rely on each other.
It doesn't matter what it means for Eastern or Westrn culture and what not, that "stereotype" is changing about women on both sides of the globe. Rukia represents the new and changing "stereotype", and Inoue represents the older and traditional "stereotype." There will always be people who will find one or the other more likeable than the other.

Hum, I guess I really don’t agree with you here. Orihime wasn’t trying to ‘be’ Rukia or to get Ichigo’s attention when she tried to hold of Yammy, she was reacting to a situation in which her friends were under attack. Remember that even in SS there’d been indications that she’d felt pretty useless for not being able to help out. People were being attacked and she was the only one there, other than Chad who was down, to have any sort of experience with battling hollows – her actions were entirely consistent with her own character (see vol.5).

Spoiler for just in case:

You could argue that with her month’s training she was trying to ‘become’ Rukia, but I don’t think that’s right either. For one, it makes perfect sense for everyone to train given the circumstances, and it isn’t the first time she’d done it.

And then there’s the fact that she hasn’t given any indication that she wants to replace Rukia – sure, she wants to have as deep a bond with Ichigo as Rukia has, but that doesn’t mean that she has to oust a rival, Ichigo is perfectly capable of caring deeply for more than one person. To be honest, I don’t think she really knows herself what she wants. To be his girlfriend is the obvious answer, but she understands that the situation would be difficult because Rukia would always be pivotal to his existence, and because she, Orihime, wouldn’t want either Ichigo or Rukia to lose the other since they’re so important to each other, yet at the same time, where would a third person be able to fit… My point is that the whole set-up is so complicated for someone in Orihime’s position that she just doesn’t really know what to want or how to fit into the picture – this is probably something she’s going to have to work out for herself before she can move on in any direction whatsoever with her feelings. And that’s one of the reasons I don’t see her as trying all that actively to change her relationship with Ichigo. Yes, she has made some efforts get closer to him, but she’s never really gone all the way with them. Although it’s obvious that she wants their relationship to change, she can’t quite imagine what it could become and is probably scared to push to hard for change in case things go wrong. This is why I see her as essentially passive: she’s confused, scared to go all the way in revealing her feelings, and thus currently incapable of really changing the status quo. And while she hesitates, Ichigo gets ever closer to Rukia and Orihime’s situation just gets worse.

About stereotypes, I was only using the word to show that Orihime was more one thing (passive) than another (proactive). For what its worth though, I can’t think of a single character in Bleach that entirely conforms to any stereotype. Nor do I think that Rukia and Orihime represent ‘new’ and ‘old’ visions of womanhood as again, Asia has plenty of old tales of active, emotionally strong and physically brave women.

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by Starwing

Hm... you're right for the most part, but you must admit the act of 237 is bold. Somehow, I feel that 237 is one of the break or make point for how people viewed the IchiHime relationship.

Orihime was not invited, probably still wearing her shoes, makes a sweeping love confession and then holds his hand and tries to kiss him. Coming from an oriental society, I know this violated so much of the traditions of courtesy, proximity, humility and all that other stuff. If it was anyone other than Orihime, I might've hated them. I, personally, was never able to approve of what Orihime did. So for that chapter, I usually focus on the confession, which I found rather touching.

On the other hand, the western society has plenty of fairy tales with kissing unconscious princesses, eloping, Romeo spying on Juliet's bedroom (and wishes he was her glove... ugh), sweeping the girl off her feet. This whole pro-action stuff has filled our televisions and literature. They are also more open to touching and physical intimacy, so the hand holding and the kiss is not such a big deal. I've even heard several IchiHime fans wishing they did kiss, or saying that she simply felt nervous. --> I see where they're coming from, but I dunno, call me a traditionalist or whatever: I found that fundamentally wrong/uncomfortable/disturbing

Spoiler:

Oh, I agree that it was a pretty bold thing to do, and for all my all-western upbringing, I definitely thought it came across as mostly creepy. But it goes with what I’m saying about her wanting to change her relationship with Ichigo but being scared/incapable of doing so. She’s only made bold because of outside circumstances (she’s about to leave for HM and may never see him again) and even then she only confesses to him because there is absolutely no way he can hear her. Nor can she go all the way with her attempt to kiss him. What made her stop isn’t particularly important, the crux of the matter is, she couldn’t take that final step to change their relationship (and something would have changed if she’d kissed him, if only for her since he obviously wouldn’t have been aware of it). In this, she’s the polar opposite of fairytale princes who kiss the princesses specifically to move the relationship along. That’s why I don’t think that one pretty short moment of boldness makes Orihime less passive with regards to Ichigo, it brings her closer to Romeo in your example, who could only sigh from afar believing Juliet to be out of his reach. And unlike Juliet, Ichigo didn’t do anything to give his secret admirer hope (there’s something wrong with this comparison ).

Oh the wonders of forums – you end up posting whole essays about a character you don’t really care about.

[ashesatdusk]

Spoiler:

when Ulquiorra told Ichi that Rukia was dead... Ichi had a shocked expression and said"...what did you say" he didn't believe him considering how Ulquiorra told him it's like he had a stats card of Rukia.. as Ulquiorra stated to Ichi about Rukia "...more accurately she and the 9th Espada killed each other... her entire body was slashed to ribbons and she was speared by a trident and couldn't have possibly survived." Ichis' decision was clear from the begining after everything is said and done he turns around and walks away saying he's going to save Rukia....... now when Ulquiorra told Ichigo about Inoue obviously he attacked beacuse of Ulquiorra, Inoue was branded as a traitor.. now lets say the same about Rukia..what do you think Ichigo would of done and apart of that he goes all out just to get to Rukia.. he doesn't hesitate to ask about Inoue or nothing related to Inoue hells'.. it looks like Ichi is not taking this rescue mission to heart like when he went to save Rukia Basically just re-read ch.270

270 did far less to convince me of the Ichigo Rukia. It seemed more to me at the time. This was the first instance that their was confirmation that one of ichigo's nakama may have died. Even when others reatsu disappeared I don't think Ichigo actually thought they were dead. His reaction seems like it could be more "its not true, it can't be true, what if its true, I have to find out". I think he'd react the same way for Chad or Ishida.

I think 248 and 247 have stronger posts that support the Ichigo & Rukia pairing. Ichigo's behaviour just before the gates (not want to split up), and the Rukia's nakama speech to ichigo in 247. Both of these show stronger indicators of each sides emotions then 270 IMO. It also what convinced me Inoue and Ichigo are very very unlikely.

[Alea Misa]

@Starwing: Good point, it must be all those trends that people put up that leads to the certain preferred attributes and expectations.

Spoiler for Spoiler:

@Niffum: Well articulated ^^ Essentially that is what I was trying to convey, but I tend to generalize at times.
I don't view Inoue as 'patient', but I do view her as gentle and sensitive, as I've mentioned in the other posts, which would equal to her being 'passive.' What I had meant about Inoue trying to be like Rukia is her -attempt- to fight and protect like Rukia is able to, and the way she tries to build a connection with Ichigo like Rukia has with Ichigo. I understand that Inoue has always wanted to be useful to the group, but she has always gone about it in a less effective way because she doesn't have the determination to do so. Why is that? How come she has become the way she is now? Inoue simply doesn't know where she truly belongs, because of her failures, her lack of identity, and the lack of determination in herself and her own abilities as a person. She has not understood who she is, nor has she fully accepted her strengths and weaknesses, as she has always let others define who she is for her. Inoue has noticed this of course, and she is trying desparately to grasp what is wrong, but her distraction with Ichigo, and her own questions of self-worth is what is hindering her from progressing. She has let herself become a victim, and she sees herself that way. Someone who couldn't even define herself as someone who was strong and beautiful to even get Ichigo's attention, like Rukia has. Inoue tries to fit into Ichigo's life like Rukia has, and trying to be the type of person that Ichigo -would- even bother to notice and see, while having those emotional and mental issues. Inoue wants to be -seen-, and it doesn't matter to her whether it is by anyone else (*ahem* Rukia), it only counts if Ichigo does, unfortunately, the enemies of HM did so before that occurance. Which again proves that she does have a poor grasp in who she is.

I don't believe that Inoue is able to go all the way with Ichigo in the sense Rukia has (not romantically), because the very core of her nature is gentleness, she may have had her moments of courage and resolve, but ultimately, the way she acts and thinks is passive as you say. Though I don't doubt that this arc will make Ichigo realize that he needs to be more aware and considerate of his friends feelings, like Rukia had mentioned, and give them credit for what they've done to stand by his side. Same with Inoue, though that lesson is more beneficial to her own character development than anything, apart from Ichigo.
Anyways, there is alot for the entire group needs to learn in this arc, how they should work together, etc...

Western and Eastern culture subject I was trying to use terms that are better understood, and I was trying to convey that the majority of culture's preferences has a way of changing.

@Ashesatdusk: Of course Ichigo would have a hard time believing that any of his friend's to be dead or might have died. What good would that do? He would just get depressed and gloomy again. He cannot afford to have a chaotic heart in times of battle.

[Lendra-chan]

@Lendra-chan,
Rukia and Orihime are, at the cores, very similar. However, they give off completely different impressions and in their daily attitudes are almost 180.

I find it interesting how Orihime wants to be more like Rukia, and Rukia thought Miyako was her ideal. I've always viewed Miyako with a "Orihime-like" character in some ways, although we've not seen her at all.

That's really funny because I thought the same thing. Miyako really reminded me of Orihime and I also thought it was rather interesting how Orihime seemed to indirectly idolize Rukia and Rukia idolized a woman close to Orihime in ways.

I know how Orihime and Rukia are actually a lot alike in ways ~ That's why I like both of them, though Ruki is quite dominant, being my favorite character. I just thought I'd clarify their outward differences rather than saying 'they are not similar' and instead saying 'they are different this way'.

:>

[Jaimie]

Originally Posted by Lendra-chan

That's really funny because I thought the same thing. Miyako really reminded me of Orihime and I also thought it was rather interesting how Orihime seemed to indirectly idolize Rukia and Rukia idolized a woman close to Orihime in ways.

I'm curious, what makes you think that Miyako and Orihime are similar? If anything I see more of a parallel between Miyako and Rukia.

If it's because of their physical appearance, well, Miyako and Orihime look nothing alike. Orihime, for one thing, has a much more prominent bust. And Miyako's hair is dark while hers is light. I think Miyako looks like an older Rukia with long hair; try putting pictures of them side by side and compare them to see what I mean.

Also, this is a bit random, but the whole Orihime putting up her hair thing = Miyako because omg! her hair is put up, too! is probably one of the worst arguments I've ever come across (and I've actually come across people who argue that!).

On the other hand, if it's because of personality... well, Rukia describes Miyako as being kind, gentle, graceful, etc. But that can apply to any number of women in Bleach, Rukia included. Just because Orihime is commonly considered to be the stereotypical "gentle" female of Bleach doesn't mean that the other girls can't also be gentle. I'd also like to point out that Miyako was the 3rd seat in her division... which gives us a bit of insight on her combat abilities. To be ranked that high, it only follows that she was also a strong fighter, yet all the while managing to remain kind, gentle, and graceful, as noted by Rukia. Which is, again, another parallel I see between the two, and definitely not between Orihime and Miyako.

[Lendra-chan]

Originally Posted by Jaimie

I'm curious, what makes you think that Miyako and Orihime are similar? If anything I see more of a parallel between Miyako and Rukia.

If it's because of their physical appearance, well, Miyako and Orihime look nothing alike. Orihime, for one thing, has a much more prominent bust. And Miyako's hair is dark while hers is light. I think Miyako looks like an older Rukia with long hair; try putting pictures of them side by side and compare them to see what I mean.

Also, this is a bit random, but the whole Orihime putting up her hair thing = Miyako because omg! her hair is put up, too! is probably one of the worst arguments I've ever come across (and I've actually come across people who argue that!).

On the other hand, if it's because of personality... well, Rukia describes Miyako as being kind, gentle, graceful, etc. But that can apply to any number of women in Bleach, Rukia included. Just because Orihime is commonly considered to be the stereotypical "gentle" female of Bleach doesn't mean that the other girls can't also be gentle. I'd also like to point out that Miyako was the 3rd seat in her division... which gives us a bit of insight on her combat abilities. To be ranked that high, it only follows that she was also a strong fighter, yet all the while managing to remain kind, gentle, and graceful, as noted by Rukia. Which is, again, another parallel I see between the two, and definitely not between Orihime and Miyako.

I think it's safe to say, rule out all physical appearances that are vaguely similar. Hair color and style really doesn't matter - If that was the case, Hisagi's hair style and Ichigo's hair style would bring questions like these - but I've only met a few who have openly proclaimed that they noticed and questioned that. Anything as simple as that shouldn't matter when comparing characteristic resemblances. That was my point. The only two characters who I actually like to compare in such a way is Kaien and Ichigo; because their similarities have been introduced by actual characters and taken into consideration more than once.

Rukia is graceful, beautiful and gentle. But those sides of her are not overtly dominant, and not everyone sees her as such. Miyako was known for such qualities which Orihime is as well. It's their dominant characteristics.

Of course there are going to be similarities that lean more to Rukia from time to time, and the same with Orihime. No two characters are exactly alike, thus opening the option for these discussions.

It was simply an observation and quirky opinion, in truth. Nothing to really sit on.