2008-10-21, 10:33 | Link #1161 |
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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Ok, to try and steer the discussion towards macross again, maybe we can talk abou the koenig monster. It seems to serve the role of mobile artillery. I kinda like the idea of a bomber that can transform into a ground based artillery platform. I mean hell, if your artillery is that mobile, you definitely have some advantages on the battlefield. But the thing that baffles me is, what the hell is the point of the legs? Lets ignore the fact that it even transforms in space, which I can't understand a single point to that, but even on a planet, I don't see the point. It can barely walk as it is, so it's definitely not for all terrain movement. Not to mention since it can fly, it really doesn't need all terrain movement.
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2008-10-21, 10:44 | Link #1162 | |
Anime Snark
Join Date: May 2006
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Age: 41
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Cheers.
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2008-10-21, 10:55 | Link #1163 | |
Star Designer
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2008-10-21, 11:35 | Link #1164 | |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
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The idea of the Koenig Monster is that it's a transformable version of the original Monster. Like all artillery units, the Destroid Monster carries heavy firepower, but it slow, and getting the firepower where you want it fast enough is a bitch. Hence, the Shuttle mode on the Koenig Monster, the idea being that it flies to the AO, deploys into GERWALK mode, blasts the crap out of everything, transforms back into Shuttle mode and flies home. As for why it has legs, the idea is to grant it limited mobility when in ground operations mode (actually, its mobility is slightly better than a standard towed artillery gun, though a self propelled gun probably has better mobility), as well as a lower center of gravity that brings better stability. Also note that when Kanaria fires her guns, the Koenig Monster leans back and a back stabiliser deploys, forming a tripod configuration in combo with the front legs - something very similar to a mortar tripod, incidentally. As for why it needs to transform into GERWALK mode, I refer you to episode 25, where Kanaria does a 360 degree turn, blasting all targets she sees. You can't do those sorts of turns in Bomber mode. Also, the other reason the Koenig Monster needs to transform because the missile launchers, arm guns, and railguns are not available in Bomber mode; Shuttle mode's only weapons are the nose autocannons. It has no other weapons in shuttle mode - you're confusing it with the VAB-2 and the VA-9 Invader (which was a bomber Valk based off the A-6 Intruder bomber in service with the US Navy). You also forget that artillery always needs to reposition itself in small ways - the simplest being turning to a new heading to shoot at a new target. When you're sitting in one spot and need to turn 20 degrees to face a new target, it's very ridiculous to take off, fly around, and land again when you can just use the legs and turn.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-10-21 at 11:54. |
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2008-10-21, 11:44 | Link #1165 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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The VB-6 Koenig Monster has more artillary available in Destroid mode.
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2008-10-21, 11:53 | Link #1166 | |
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Are we discussing this in context to the monster firing in space or on a planet? In space, it doesn't need to be braced. Actually the railguns would serve as an auxiliary propullsion device if necessary. On land, legs don't provide a stable platform. Actually, they would just be more likely to break, or cause the mech to fall flat on its back. Tracks would be more logical if you wanted it to remain mobile. I don't have a major problem with it being able to transform into a shuttle/bomber whatever. More mobility is good, I mentioned this already. Again, tracks can provide MORE stability, and MORE mobility than those goofy legs can. No leg configuration has superior stability compared to just tracks. Tracks are also a simpler design, and easier to repair. Ack no. You don't need to transform into gerwalk mode to spin in space. Macross gets this part horribly wrong. In space, you don't have to face the direction you are moving in. You can spin all day while moving in one direction if you wanted to. In fact, that's what planets do. Well they spin while moving in circles. Yea, but why not? Why not have those weapons mounted while in shuttle/bomber mode? What's stopping it from happening other than a really bad design on the part of the engineers? |
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2008-10-21, 12:16 | Link #1167 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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Macross VFX-2 Intro with VB-6 Monster (1:42)
As you can see it is one over sized tank. Quote:
Spoiler for VF-19 Custom dodging with verniers:
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2008-10-21, 12:51 | Link #1168 | |||||||
Truth Martyr
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Also, note that despite its superior mobility vs. towed artillery, there are still terrain types that tracked artillery cannot reach. This is a non issue for the Koenig Monster, which can just fly there and park. Also, as we see in Episode 25, if the Koenig Monster falls, it falls forward, not back. Also, consider that the layout of the legs and the back stabiliser is very much in the same tripod configuration used by mortars and conventional towed artillery. Quote:
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Nobody is saying that the Koenig Monster design is perfect. It is, however, the best compromise that the designers could come up with at the time it was fielded. All designs are ultimately compromises. It was designed and intended to give the original Destroid Monster a form that would allow more mobility and faster deployment of heavy artillery to the battlefield. GERWALK mode is the entire point of the Koenig Monster; Shuttle mode is the means to get there.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-10-21 at 13:04. |
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2008-10-21, 13:32 | Link #1169 |
Eating your babies
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Let me link you to two items from the Macross Mecha Manual website that should clear up why the VB-6 can't fire it's rail guns while in shuttle mode. I suppose you could, in theory, but by the time you get the big guns out, you're mostly in GERWALK anyways.
http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macrossg...iordetails.gif http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macrossg...formation1.gif Amusingly, the parts of the guns that point backward can be used to generate more thrust in shuttle mode, but to swing them forward and fire would not be good in space unless you wanted to decrease your forward thrust. Macross at least pays lipservice to realistic physics and screwing with your forward velocity in the middle of space combat is a bad thing. |
2008-10-21, 14:44 | Link #1170 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Is anyone else besides me failing to see any real discussion of Macross Mecha, Weapons and Technology in these latest points? Everything is being discussed "out of context" with points like "real lasers don't work like lasers in Macross, therefore Macross future warfare is wrong". This latest one is "transforming mecha don't make sense, so what's the point of the VB-6 Konig?". Shouldn't these "revelations" that Macross lasers and Macross mecha aren't real already be apparent?
Take this for example: Quote:
I'd like to see discussion of Macross Mecha, Weapons and Technology from the basic assumption that it's practical and has a valid purpose. It's then our jobs as the audience to "imagine" why it works. If we're not suspending our disbelief and instead benchmarking Macross by how things work in the "REAL WORLD", where then is the discussion of "Macross Mecha, Weapons and Technology" in the recent pages of this thread? From what I can tell these latest discussions are really just a way of saying the fictional science of Macross doesn't make sense/doesn't work. We might as well be criticising Star Wars for lightsabers and Star Trek for transporters for all the good it does.
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2008-10-21, 15:14 | Link #1171 | |
Star Designer
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As I said a whole lot posts back when I still had the patience to reply to those senseless arguments, thinking using 'possible in the current world' assumptions is the WORST thing you can do as it's practically a pure error at it's core. Get rid of this mind set and then post your questions. EDIT. A question about VF-25F and S variation. Considering all the previous VF designs and the F/S versions the most obvious feature that is changed in the S version is the amount of the Head Laser turrets as well as weight and engine output. S Variations are commander type and thus provide a better performance to the F version. Is there any solid info on the specs of VF-25S ? We know that it has 4 x fixed Mauler RÖV-217C coaxial 12.7mm beam guns while F has 2. Is there anything more?
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Last edited by Urei; 2008-10-21 at 15:28. |
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2008-10-21, 18:28 | Link #1172 | |||||||
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Last edited by monir; 2008-10-21 at 19:59. |
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2008-10-21, 19:05 | Link #1173 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Maybe the feet of the legs can grip the surface better than treds for when it is firing. Or if not, then so it can grip onto a ships hull in zero gravity. You can't do that with a tred. Remember it was designed based on a walking mech that didn't have a shuttle mode or any kind of transformation ability. It was not intended to move very far or very fast. But it does seem to be intended to provide mobile weapons coverage in the orginal Macross, as these were used on deck and inside the Assault carrier arm for the Macross' punch-like attack (to deliver heavy ordinance to an enemy ship's interior).
The shuttle mode makes the vessel more useful as it can now be used as part of a fleet's force projection group when needed, or for rapid redeployment to vessels in the fleet that need heavy firepower (civilian ships). As for its battleroid mode....I have no idea really. Its GERWALK mode was the original standard mode and the shuttle gives it superior self deployment capability. I guess the battleroid mode is for its own personal self defense? Instead of being ripped up at close range where it's massive guns are useless (because it would take itself out in the blast), and it can't outrun whatever is attacking in shuttle mode, them it would have to have a means of defending itself. Fists and/or a mech sized rifle would do I suppose to get it to the standards of the various variable fighters.
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2008-10-21, 19:34 | Link #1174 |
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Firing the railgun while in shuttle mode has a nagging problem of EMP that may render flight, navigation computers as well as the engine to shut down needing to reinitialize the system again. Not very good in a combat situation.
Especially in flight mode where there will be no system to compensate recoil. |
2008-10-21, 19:36 | Link #1175 | |||
NERV Personnel
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The Shuttle mode was primary designed as a means of self-transportation to get it to the battlefield and back. Quote:
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Last edited by monir; 2008-10-21 at 20:01. Reason: Portion of the post no longer needed! |
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2008-10-21, 19:45 | Link #1176 | ||
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Last edited by monir; 2008-10-22 at 18:12. |
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2008-10-21, 19:50 | Link #1177 |
NERV Personnel
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Treads and wheels have their advantages in terrestrial theaters. In space they would serve little purpose in combat. In the VB-6's case, the feet had a means to impale sections into a surface to keep itself grounded while it fired and absorb the massive recoil.
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2008-10-21, 19:55 | Link #1178 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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Daigo you don't own the thread so you don't have a right to complain when it is on-topic. Unless you want to be reported for thread spamming again.
The reason you switched back to Macross discussion is because you'be been taking the heat from everyone around here. You don't like also being rebutted on your arguments even if others are more knowledgeble than you in physics and history. Having better sounding arguments than you and disproving your statements. That is why you keep on repeating yourself even if it was disproven. March is right keep this thread a Macross discussion. Read the title and the rules. Anything else is considered spamming. Last edited by monir; 2008-10-21 at 20:04. Reason: quote removed for consistency's sake |
2008-10-21, 20:00 | Link #1179 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
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One more thing warship that will be equiped with rail guns will have a larger frame, mass made from highly conductive material(steel) not some kind of titanium alloy and, floating on sea(which acts as an Earthing system) not in mid air. Frankly speaking you are trying to mix apples with oranges. When you have a working rail gun deployed on a B1 bomber call me. |
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2008-10-21, 20:13 | Link #1180 |
cho~ kakkoii
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Question to Daigo: Are you discussing Macross technology as this thread intended to do?
I also have an observation to make to the general. If a post isn't partaking to the intended discussion of a thread-topic, then instead of making it an issue, one can always go around such post. If one is going to entertain a post that is considered off-topic by replying to it, then there shouldn't be any complaints later on, now should there? Discussing a topic shouldn't be that difficult to do just because one poster is going off-topic. If I have something to contribute to the topic at hand, then I can always do so. An off-topic isn't going to hinder my intention. Hopefully, I'm making sense!
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