2009-11-24, 18:34 | Link #4283 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Who was Beatrice playing against before the games we see? ...Kinzo? |
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2009-11-24, 18:46 | Link #4286 |
Trust the red.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Guest House
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There's nothing odd about that EP1 remark, right? Aren't Shannon and Kanon supposed to know about the Epitaph and all the crazy ways of Kinzo? Perhaps they were internally surprised to find out that he wasn't just being insane, and now their lives really will be at risk, but it's not like it was their first time exposed to the workings of the ritual like it was for Battler.
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2009-11-25, 19:54 | Link #4287 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Brazil - São Paulo
Age: 31
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Well, I could be very wrong here. I have to replay EP4, since I don't remember the dungeon scene very well. |
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2009-12-01, 15:30 | Link #4288 |
Casting a spell on you...
Graphic Designer
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Forgive my crack-filled theory here. I just wanted to post it since its been bothering me after I read through the Tea Party for this episode.
"There are no more than 17 Humans on this Island." Now, what if, without the them knowing, that people in the Ushiromiya family were demon-hybrids? You could knock them off as humans with the red then, but they can also count as humans with the red as well. Then they're are a number of people you can count as culprits since their are plenty of slots. You could have strange occurrences happening, but the murders could still be executed by humans (demon hunters maybe? nah, thats too much). Then I started thinking about what this could do with Battler's sin and my head exploded. I'll have to get back to you guys on that. Well, there is my crack theory. |
2009-12-02, 00:10 | Link #4290 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Brazil - São Paulo
Age: 31
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2009-12-02, 01:12 | Link #4291 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
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Tch... No matter how I see it, each game is bloody hard...
First, we have some people witnessing Beatrice in EP2 and Battler being the only reliable witness actually SAW HER in EP4! Doesn't that tell us already that she does exist as a piece? Then we have the bottles containing the mysteries of EP1 and EP2... Who is the "Beatrice" who Maria adores and the one who wrote in her Grimoire? And how come Rosa doesn't know anything about her? The PIN 07151129... Aside from it being Battler's birthday the four first numbers... I don't know what else to think... I remember something about having to call outside by dialing 0 before the number... Maybe it's a telephone number or something... And having raised only one of her hands in the last mystery... Does it mean there is another mystery almost impossible to understand? But what bugs me the most is Battler's statement of You can't trust any words that aren't red. Does that mean that everything else might be fake?? We have almost no solid foundation in which place suppositions. In normal circumstances we could utilize their characters to figure out more or less who could have done it... But now what can we trust? "Without love it can't be seen" Are we supposed to believe both of the results of the cat inside the box? It's useless! It's all useless!!! Dammit... Well, I didn't come here just to whine. So I say some ideas in blue. Kanon's true name is Ushiromiya Battler. He is the son of Ushiromiya Asumu, who was put in an orphanage by reasons I refuse to explain. Having lived in the mansion, there are plenty of opportunities for him to commit a sin. He also knows well where the gold is hidden and a secret passage which leads to it and to other locations. His dubious deaths trough the first to the fourth game are also explained that way. He "killed" his own name and somehow survived the first and third game. He knows who Beatrice is and what he did to her. Shannon is not Beatrice. I deny her involvement with the murders. Due to the fact that both Kyrie and Jessica's stories matched, I accuse Jessica or Kyrie of being Beatrice. One threatened the other and forced her to lie to Battler to throw him off, then killed her. Kumasawa and Gohda were killed by either Jessica or George and then "Beatrice" killed George. And then... Beatrice's true identity is Ushiromiya Jessica! In Battler's test she is the only one I could think of who could pass off as Beatrice without Battler noticing who she is. That is because he knew Kyrie for having gone to Ange's birthdays. Jessica was the one who had completely changed in his eyes. Jessica hasn't got the cunning mind that Kyrie has. She wouldn't be able to form a credible lie under pressure. Kyrie must have given Battler some kind of clue in her last call. Probably when she mentioned Asumu There are my two cents for today... Guess I'll reread EP1 and EP2... There are many things I don't like about this theory. Beatrice's last mystery is what I don't understand... If everyone is dead, how could someone kill Battler? I don't think Ryukishi would make loopholes such as "the sky or an small rock outside the island don't count as being inside the island" If there is another mystery harder than that... then I'll have to accept witches exist... |
2009-12-02, 01:57 | Link #4292 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Brazil - São Paulo
Age: 31
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I think the red only represents something that the speaker believes to be the truth. I'm not saying that the red is "lie". Maybe some of it is true, but not everything. I know that without the red, we have no foundations for our theories, but I have this hunch that not everything is true. Also, if Battler's goal is to deny witches, then the very fact that he believes the red and uses the blue is already preventing him from winning. So, in a nutshell, the red works like the blue, so some of the things said in red could be mere theories. |
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2009-12-02, 02:31 | Link #4293 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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2009-12-02, 03:47 | Link #4294 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Exactly. Red doesn't work that way. We have not one but two facts that prove it. Beatrice also failed to repeat something in red.
BTW, the fact that you can't trust anything that isn't red doesn't mean that anything that isn't red is fake. This red would be effective even if everything was real. But as long as there isn't a full certainty that something is real then you can't completely trust it. Red is the only thing you can trust under this perspective.
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2009-12-02, 03:52 | Link #4296 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Actually she probably can say that "witches exist". Since she was already able to use magic and golden land in red, it means that they all have a different meaning, or they actually exist.
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2009-12-02, 22:20 | Link #4299 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Brazil - São Paulo
Age: 31
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Well, I know my theory about the red sounds crazy... I just think that the red is a little too convenient. |
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2009-12-03, 00:20 | Link #4300 | ||||
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Of course, this then leaves us absolutely nothing - we cannot ever get to the bottom of the mystery; the alternative is to trust to Beato's sportsmanship regarding the rules. Well, except perhaps the TIPS. It's notable that they still do not update until Battler has seen the death with his own eyes. Finally, one more thought on the red, regarding Ange and Beatrice's confrontation. I think this provides the most evidence that there is something more to the red. Beatrice states that: "This is my Golden Land. A world where any magic other than my own definitely cannot exist." "With my magic, Sakutarou could not be revived. Your stuffed animal is a special stuffed animal. The only one in the world, made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday." Note very carefully that "with my" is not red. There's deeper implications to this phrase, seeing as Ange was able to revive Sakutarou. An inconsistency in how the red is used? Or perhaps a testament to Ange's strength? After all, if the red is the absolute truth, then Ange's magic could not work in Beato's Golden Land, and the magic that revived Sakutarou was Beatrice's. Perhaps the TIP about Mariage Sorciere might help - it notes that "From them, a groundbreaking magical compendium was created, and Beatrice, whose magical power had declined, was given an immense new magical power." Perhaps the red distinguishes between Beato's magic per se, and the magic she gained from Mariage Sorciere? If we take the anti-fantasy stance, does this inconsistency even matter? As to Battler's origin, I am leaning towards the son-of-Kyrie camp. Granted, there is the miscarriage/stillbirth ambiguity in the wording, but recall Kyrie is certainly in somewhat of a rush, if not a rage, when she declares this; it's quite possible she might have simply selected the wrong word. As I hear in the anime, the word for stillbirth is used instead. Also, like some have pointed out, Battler and Ange share hair colour - but that might be Rudolf's genes at work. Quote:
The only potential hole I could maybe rip in that is that we do get a number of red truths stating that none of the deaths were faked, and we definitely have a corpse for Kanon in Episode 1 and 3. However, I'm not exactly sure I recall how they line up... would have to refer back to chronotrig's post that lists all the red truths from Episode 4... Quote:
It's the same number that is written in blood on the door back in Episode 3 - does that mean Eva was supposed to see it? Remember, 1998 Ange exists in the kakera of the events of Episode 3, so Eva would have been witness to the numbers on the door. The family members who received the bank PIN, on the other hand, would never draw that connection - but if Eva remembered them and ever saw that PIN number, she might have. A completely random theory that popped up is - what if the money is actually from Eva herself (assuming she is the culprit of Episode 3, or at least caused some of the murders). Perhaps feeling guilty for the surviving family she used the number she saw as a PIN? Finally, crossposting from a discussion on Maria that went more into Episode 4 in general. Quote:
Last edited by vendredi; 2009-12-03 at 00:31. |
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