Fate/Zero - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[DakkerDB]

I dunno, I prefer pizza with my weekly dose of tragedy.

[AvianWing]

Originally Posted by Methuselah

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH

I was actually eating while watching that scene! XD

Ham Chowder with Shell Macroni + Chicken Breasts

Drank down with Orange Juice.


JAAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

You should have had some wine, then sit down and have a nice chat with Kirei about the finer points of trolling

=)

[jeroz]

well, Aoi kind of have a feeling that Kariya will go on a death match against Tokiomi sometime. He did told her about participating in the grail war in their encounter back in ep10. By that time Kariya is also showed signs of losing his focus, so it's no surprise that it's highly likely that he's the one that kills Tokiomi judging from what's in front of her.

Go back and watch that scene in ep10, it foreshadows what happened this episode so much.

[blue_sora]

God, the whole Kariya scene makes me cry. Currently this is the saddest scene for me, mainly because I'm a girl and I can relate how to Aoi feels at that moment, with your beloved husband dead in front you. The tears came when she cried

But I have to say, both Aoi's and Kariya's seiyuu really makes the moment so emotional with their acting. Superb voicing at that moment.

I feel quite sorry that Byakuya (Shinji's father) got tortured by Kiritsugu. But how can he easily break in the Matou house? Surely they have barriers and protection? And Matou Zouken, please die already.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by jeroz

well, Aoi kind of have a feeling that Kariya will go on a death match against Tokiomi sometime. He did told her about participating in the grail war in their encounter back in ep10. By that time Kariya is also showed signs of losing his focus, so it's no surprise that it's highly likely that he's the one that kills Tokiomi judging from what's in front of her.

Go back and watch that scene in ep10, it foreshadows what happened this episode so much.

Sure there was all that, and of course she wasn't thinking perfectly straight in this scene, but still, you'd think that she would give him a little benefit of the doubt when he says he didn't do it. As Aoi said, she thought Kariya killed him in front of her. What's the point of denying it if he intended to kill Tokiomi in front of her? Why would he kill Tokiomi in front of her in the first place?
But either way, blaming him for Sakura was overdoing it. Only so much can be excused by the "heat" of the moment, and unlike Kariya, she didn't have bugs eating her body from the inside out to screw with her head.

Originally Posted by blue_sora

But how can he easily break in the Matou house? Surely they have barriers and protection?

Kiritsugu is an expert at countering Magicians. Countering this stuff is exactly what he does.

And Matou Zouken, please die already.

WORD.

[zRyuu]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

The real kick to the groin that I blame her for, though, is blaming Kariya for Sakura being sent to the Matous. I really don't see how that logic works, and it's not like she has bugs in her screwing with her brain.
Tokiomi sent Sakura to the Matous. I doubt Kariya had any say in that. The Matous needed Sakura to replace Kariya, sure, but seeing as how he's literally throwing away his life for Sakura anyway, I doubt he ever would have left if he'd known this would happen.

I think the reason why Tokiomi sent Sakura to the Matou was because Matou Zouken was looking for a successor. And the reason why he was looking for a successor was because Kariya decided not to follow the path of a magi. Kariya was the only Matou with magic potential unlike Byakuya (the guy we saw on this episode) and that other guy.
Nvm you knew that lol.

[ookamigirl]

Saber on a motorcycle. That's a pretty cool sight.
It got even cooler after the transformation.
Saber vs Rider was just amazing! Loved the road fight.
So Berserker was the kidnapper. It was a nice illusion trick.

[serenade_beta]

Ah~ah, finally both people who made Sakura suffer so much died. What tragedy~ Feel so sad~ (eats sweet and soured chicken)
I do sympathize with Kariya, but well, I hope he is somewhat comforted with the fact that at least Tokki died, even if he couldn't do it himself and got caught in the act(?).

"Aoi-san, it wasn't me!" <-- Coming from the guy who was gonna do it

[Swithin]

Originally Posted by jeroz

I wonder if this is done on purpose.....

Of course it was. Not only is it genre-savvy, I think it's kind of daring considering how much it blows up the whole concept of ero games and where all these works come from.

Still a bit stunned with this ep. I don't think any show ever has elicited my sympathy for someone doing something as wrong as what Kariya did while they were actually doing it. Normally the "insanity" in such moments seems like a flimsy cover for straight-up moral failing, but this ep... wow. Direction, writing, and voice-acting all 10/10.

I was enjoying this show, even if all my friends have either dumped it due to Caster's wrongness in the beginning or never picked it up due to the poppiness of FSN, but now I'm starting to love it (in a long-term kind of way.) Comparing this and Kara no Kyoukai to the rest of the animated Type Moon projects, I kind of want Ufotable to re-do Tsukihime following the manga (admission: I haven't played/read the VN,) and be the official sole producer of future Nasuverse works.

edit: Got to own up about guessing the identity of "Rider" totally incorrectly, and that I was completely wrong in dismissing Berserker. You guys were right. Sorry.

[jeroz]

F/Z is a light novel, as in, a book in your hands filled with texts

[Swithin]

Originally Posted by jeroz

F/Z is a light novel, as in, a book in your hands filled with texts

If you're replying to my thing about "where all these works come from", I just meant since Tsukihime kicked off Type Moon's popularity, and that was an eroge. Didn't mean to imply anything about F/Z.

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by jeroz

I wonder if this is done on purpose.....

Spoiler for gif:

It's going to be very awkward watching that scene with my dad. I wonder if I should show him this episode at all.

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

What's even worse is, since this is a prequel, we don't get to fully see Kotomine die in Fate/Stay Night in justice for this, like we don't get to see Rin finding out who was responsible for the death of her parents and seeing Lancer or Shirou (depending on which route you're talking about of course) cutting him down in their name.

Actually,

Spoiler:

Rin kind of does learn who killed her father in UBW.

Originally Posted by Swithin

If you're replying to my thing about "where all these works come from", I just meant since Tsukihime kicked off Type Moon's popularity, and that was an eroge. Didn't mean to imply anything about F/Z.

Fate/Stay Night is a visual novel as well. With a few H-scenes even.

Although both FSN and Tsukihime always showed rape in a strictly negative light. So in that context your analogy doesn't work.

[ars89]

Wow Berserker has another awesome ability. Saber on the bike was great. Well played Kirei. I couldn't help but laugh at how it played out at the end. Being Kariya sucks.

[Flawfinder]

You know how in the past, I complained that this series didn't translate well from novel to anime? Well, the second half has done a good job of remedying that problem. That scene with Kariya strangling Tokiomi's wife was actually very suspenseful. And of course, Rider and Waver are a hoot, especially when interacting with Saber.

[Thess]

It was too bad Rider couldn't use his chariot full power (remember he could only use flight only because of his prana levels were low).

The Kariya tragedy always makes me sad.

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

I SORT of blame Aoi a bit, though. I can understand that she was emotional strained, to say the least, by seeing the man she loved lying dead in front of Kariya. But the first thing Kariya said when he saw her was that he didn't kill him, and Aoi assumed it was him anyway.
The real kick to the groin that I blame her for, though, is blaming Kariya for Sakura being sent to the Matous. I really don't see how that logic works, and it's not like she has bugs in her screwing with her brain.
Tokiomi sent Sakura to the Matous. I doubt Kariya had any say in that. The Matous needed Sakura to replace Kariya, sure, but seeing as how he's literally throwing away his life for Sakura anyway, I doubt he ever would have left if he'd known this would happen.

So while I can sympathize with Aoi too, she still just lashed out and blamed him for everything, whether it was his fault or not. That certainly didn't help his state of mind, which was already in ruins thanks to the bugs.

I saw that as a tremendous indicator that she never really understood Kariya. She was oblivious to the feelings that he had for her, despite knowing the guy since childhood, and she was oblivious to the fact that he had nothing to do with the operation of the Matous or with the whole Sakura affair, despite the fact that he had disowned his family and had previously criticized her for allowing it. She had regarded him as a younger brother, had judged him earlier by saying that he had no business sticking his nose into what happened to someone who was basically his niece, and honestly seemed to believe that she had a good read on who he was, but she really knew nothing about him. However, given how grief stricken she was at the time, I find it difficult to blame her. The entire thing was just one gigantic mess that the like of Kirei was eager to feed upon.

[mAc Chaos]

A lot of people seem to blame Kariya for it, saying he shouldn't have interfered in the first place and that he wasn't interested in what Aoi really thought, but was just doing what he thought was best and imposing it on her.

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

A lot of people seem to blame Kariya for it, saying he shouldn't have interfered in the first place and that he wasn't interested in what Aoi really thought, but was just doing what he thought was best and imposing it on her.

Assuming that this was, in part, a response to my post, I'm actually on Kariya's side with the whole Sakura issue. Telling Kariya that it was none of his business, in regard to what happened to a young girl, who was his niece in all but blood, and despite even Aoi, Rin, and Sakura, seeing him as a family member, was incredibly asinine. Of course it was his business to keep Sakura from going into what he knew was going to be a physically abusive situation, regardless of what Aoi thought on the matter.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

Assuming that this was, in part, a response to my post, I'm actually on Kariya's side with the whole Sakura issue. Telling Kariya that it was none of his business, in regard to what happened to a young girl, who was his niece in all but blood, and despite even Aoi, Rin, and Sakura, seeing him as a family member, was incredibly asinine. Of course it was his business to keep Sakura from going into what he knew was going to be a physically abusive situation, regardless of what Aoi thought on the matter.

however instead stepping into the Grail war mess, he should have first told Tokiomi what is happening.