Learning Japanese

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Uhm i see thanx for the explanation ^^

I have another question 'though
I've studied the usage of "morau" and "moraou" but there are still some situations where i don't really get their meaning.

For example:

"Misete moraou" it express a will (in imperative form) to make someone show something.

however what about:

"Misete moraou ka" why the question? How does it match with strong imperative request? I don't quite get it ^^;

ka = ?
Asking a "question" in the japanese language, sometimes softens the request. It's just one of those things in order to 'not to be rude or straight forward'.
To translate could be:

(How about) you show me.
with the 'ka' it could be 'Could you show me?'
Kinda nuance...

Same request, slightly different in tone.
'misete' on it's own would be slightly stronger imo.
Speaking of 'morau', what I will ask from an advanced student or native to clarify as a good grammar point is the difference between:

morau and kureru.

okashi wo tsukutta kureta.
okashi wo tsukutta moratta.

"ageru" is when you offer to do something for someone, but yeah, those two evil bastards...
There's a difference between the particle used, who the subject is and the feeling behind the sentence but 3 years later, I still cannot get this round my head completely.
I kinda, semi, get it on feeling, but there are justifyable explainations.
Was wondering if someone wouldn't mind clearly explaining the differences between the nuance of 'receiving' for the thread.

[Nagato]

Originally Posted by Mystique

ka = ?
Asking a "question" in the japanese language, sometimes softens the request. It's just one of those things in order to 'not to be rude or straight forward'.
To translate could be:

(How about) you show me.
with the 'ka' it could be 'Could you show me?'
Kinda nuance...

Same request, slightly different in tone.
'misete' on it's own would be slightly stronger imo.
Speaking of 'morau', what I will ask from an advanced student or native to clarify as a good grammar point is the difference between:

morau and kureru.

okashi wo tsukutta kureta.
okashi wo tsukutta moratta.

"ageru" is when you offer to do something for someone, but yeah, those two evil bastards...
There's a difference between the particle used, who the subject is and the feeling behind the sentence but 3 years later, I still cannot get this round my head completely.
I kinda, semi, get it on feeling, but there are justifyable explainations.
Was wondering if someone wouldn't mind clearly explaining the differences between the nuance of 'receiving' for the thread.

1. A ga okashi wo tsukutte kureta (kudasatta/kudasaimashita for polite).
2. (watashi ga/wa) A ni okashi wo tsukutte moratta (itadaita/itadakimashita for polite).

As you said there's difference in usage (particle, subject,...)

The 2nd sentence emphasizes the speaker as the subject. I somehow get a feeling that A did it because the speaker requested him to do so, but this is not always the case. Itadaku is a kenjougo (謙譲語/humble form) for morau.So it's like "I had A make cookies for me."

In the first sentence A is the subject, emphasizing A's action. we don't really know whether A did it because of request from speaker or not. kudasaru is a sonkeigo (尊敬語/honorific form) for kureru. So it's like this: "A made cookies for me."

[Ryuou]

Originally Posted by Mystique

hmm...
I still wouldn't say its a 'forcing' nuance to the te+miru grammar. To try anything doesn't really give a feeling of forcing someone to do something.
miru -> miro(u) - would just be a change to the volitional form, which typically does mean 'let's do this' or 'Shall' (A sugesstion)

Ikimashou (Ikou)
Tabemashou (taberou)
Suru (Shiyou)

Depending on the context in which yattemirou was said, it could be translated in a few ways nuance wise, but 'let's do it!' - wouldn't be wrong.

I think you got your conjugations a bit mixed up Mystique. It should be “miyou” instead of “mirou”. “Miru” isn't a go-dan verb or whatever that thing is called. So “miro” is the command form (stronger one) for it so it would have the forcing sense he's talking about. Also "taberou" -> "tabeyou".

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

For example:

"Misete moraou" it express a will (in imperative form) to make someone show something.

however what about:

"Misete moraou ka" why the question? How does it match with strong imperative request? I don't quite get it ^^;

Pretty much what Mystique said, but also, there'll be times where adding that "ka" makes it sarcastic. It would depend on the situation.

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by Ryuou

I think you got your conjugations a bit mixed up Mystique. It should be “miyou” instead of “mirou”. “Miru” isn't a go-dan verb or whatever that thing is called. So “miro” is the command form (stronger one) for it so it would have the forcing sense he's talking about. Also "taberou" -> "tabeyou".

I screwed up on the group 2 verbs huh? xD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes...ons#Volitional
Although I'm surprised they have no group 2 examples in there.
but group two =
stem + you = volitional (group 2)
tabeyou
Thanks for the check

[iLney]

When to use　"もの" and　"こと？"

Both mean "things"

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by iLney

When to use　"もの" and　"こと？"

Both mean "things"

もの = 物 = physical things.
こと = 事 = conceptual things.

... in a nutshell, at least.

[iLney]

Thx but....: あなたに必要なものは勇気である ?

[ukiuki]

Originally Posted by iLney

Thx but....: あなたに必要なものは勇気である ?

you can use either もの　or　こと　for this sentence.
i guess that もの　is you carry/ ability that you need to learn.
and こと is you make it happen in this case.

[fanty]

"こんあ俺だが受け入れてくれるか?"

^how exactly does "but" fit into this sentence? I just don't get it...

[ukiuki]

Originally Posted by yFANTgirl

"こんあ俺だが受け入れてくれるか?"

^how exactly does "but" fit into this sentence? I just don't get it...

first of all that sentence must be　こんな俺だがうけいれてくれるか？
this is sound like bad person asking to join some group that I assumed
it might be
"can you accept me but I am not that good "



learn must be fun http://wwjanime.blogspot.com

[fanty]

Originally Posted by ukiuki

first of all that sentence must be　こんな俺だがうけいれてくれるか？
this is sound like bad person asking to join some group that I assumed
it might be
"can you accept me but I am not that good "

""こんあ" was a typo on my part (oops) but are you sure about "受け入れ"? A Japanese person wrote it like that (though I guess Japanese people make mistakes too) and the word is in rikaichan's dictionary...

(thanks btw!)

[Circular Logic]

Originally Posted by yFANTgirl

""こんあ" was a typo on my part (oops) but are you sure about "受け入れ"? A Japanese person wrote it like that (though I guess Japanese people make mistakes too) and the word is in rikaichan's dictionary...

(thanks btw!)

受け入れて is the same as うけいれて, just with kanji.

[iLney]

誰と誰が熱心？

誰と誰 = who?

Then is also valid for " doko to doko" "nani to nani" "dou to dou" etc...?

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by iLney

誰と誰が熱心？

誰と誰 = who?

Then is also valid for " doko to doko" "nani to nani" "dou to dou" etc...?

Rather it's saying:
"who and who are passionate?"
Most likely trying to point out 2 people as examples.

So taking that in mind, you tell me.
Where and where
What and what
How and how

Do you think it can be applied and in what sense?

[iLney]

Uhm....

The translation for "誰と誰が熱心?" was "Who's enthusiastic?" with a "<plain>" remark next to it? I can't find "誰と誰" in the dictionary though...

BTW

お姉さんと話したいんですが
=>I'd like to talk to you.　（＝Older sister)

I can read it as "I want to talk to your sister" too right?...

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by iLney

BTW

お姉さんと話したいんですが
=>I'd like to talk to you.　（＝Older sister)

I can read it as "I want to talk to your sister" too right?...

You can, but in english
I want is much stronger (more rude) than 'I'd like' - and seeing as it ends in 'desu ga' - it's a slightly softer nuance to the request, so it was probably interpreted with a similar softer nuance in english.

Uhm....

The translation for "誰と誰が熱心?" was "Who's enthusiastic?" with a "<plain>" remark next to it? I can't find "誰と誰" in the dictionary though...

Hence I asked you a question rather in my last post; I wanted you to think about it a little instead of always coming for instant Q&A.

This is my personal opnion may I add, just from hearing how 誰と誰 has been used in context from natives when I talk with them.
誰と誰, as I said before usually is used when trying to point out/specify 2 people (probably from a group) rather than a general 'who is enthusiastic'
otherwise:
誰が熱心? - would be more than enough to ask imo.

The と particle is the clue there, in this case it gives the nuance of 'and' for me, so if i hear that, I assume they're looking for more than 1 specific example.

Some of the others will jump in here later to confirm or dispell my reasoning if you want more answers.

[iLney]

Thanks, Mystique I guess I was too occupied by the translation.

武田：来週の週末、　暇？
富田：　うん、暇だけど。

In this case, there is a bit reluctance in the answer right. Does it mean 富田 doesn't really want to accept any possible invitation from 武田? (The translation is "Yes, I am"

[Ryuou]

The "dakedo" here isn't really reluctance on the part of 富田, but more like "I am, but why do ask?" It's curiosity on his/her part to know why the other person is asking.

[xxanimefan4_ever]

it could be anything, it's all about context. like if those lines were from a drama it could be very different what you'd think just from reading the lines then seeing the actors acting it out in whatever situation it is.

[Ryuou]

Care to provide examples of other meanings to better flesh out the explanation for iLney?

I'm trying to play out different situations in my head. I'm thinking if the person replying wanted to express reluctance (generally you'd be able to tell from their voice), he/she'd chop off the "Un".