2008-12-12, 23:40 | Link #1681 | ||
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2008-12-13, 00:03 | Link #1682 | |
He Who Smites Shippers
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 36
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The most immediate format that comes to mind for the familiar question is a direct energy transfer; every unit of magic given to Arf is one pulled directly from Fate's mana pool. But if Arf and Fate are both AAA-ranks in Classic then that means Fate would have to have magic equal to twice that of a AAA-rank mage to support both of them, which should easily place her in the SS range. Now I know Fate's good and all, but SS-rank at age 10 without the BoD backing her up seems pretty excessive. There's also the question of how exactly the limiters function. If they work by somehow reducing all of a mage's stats and total combat capability, sort of like magical training weights, then I can see Arf being affected by Fate's limiter. But if the limiters function by limiting the amount of mana a mage can harness and use at one time, then Fate would still have an S-rank mana pool even when limited, and Arf would be able to draw from that mana supply freely.
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2008-12-13, 00:59 | Link #1684 | |
Beta by Accident
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Maine
Age: 52
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This would imply that limited-Nanoha and Fate are more effective that normal AAs, and not just because of their personal skill level; they'd be able to continue using their AA magic for much longer in battle due to their S+ mana pools that they could draw upon. It also explains why it's Hayate who's the first person who gets her limiter released. Hayate, who relies less on the precise application of force in battle, needs her higher power level to be effective. What I don't see is where the assumption comes from that Arf is equivalent in power to a AAA-ranked mage. In A's, Arf and Zafira are possibly equals, and by StrikerS, it appears that Zafira is AA rank unless I'm misinterpreting. Also, by making her AAA-rank, that would make her equal in power to Fate, and I don't see how a familiar could be equal in power to its master... |
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2008-12-13, 04:01 | Link #1686 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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The initiative that TSABians typically exhibit doesn't even deserve to be called "native wit", because that would imply they actually used their craniums, which from their actions doesn't always seem to be the case. More generally, it is only safe to allow initiative when your subordinates 1) Know the Situation and 2) Know your Intent. If it is impossible for some reason to provide both, then initiative is dangerous (as Zest proved). And if your troops lack discipline so you can restrain their "initiative" as needed in such cases, the only way out is to put them far far away so they won't use their initiative and get themselves killed or spoil your plan - which might be part of what Regius is doing and why he can't keep as good an eye on Jail as he should or wanted. Quote:
Maybe, if they had tried cooperation, they would have been legally able to bring in more guys than what they can achieve by going under the radar. Quote:
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Not to mention, one must ask. Did they even try pushing for the right to carry weapons inside? How about a compromise where the weapon is carried inside, but is in the hands of another person (from another unit, of course!) close by (two-man rule?) Or did they really just go "OK", turn and say "That's the deal, Forwards. We are going in. Carry our weapons for.us." Quote:
Besides, not knowing the enemy's exact strategy, you don't put your weapons effectively into storage just because if you deploy it your PAL to it might be jammed. Quote:
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2) Remember that it is the rank limit / unit that's law. The limiters are a tool, and really more there to make a joke out of the law. While Hayate's limiter is treated somewhat seriously, Nanoha and Fate's are just snapped off, apparently near at will. If anything, transferring some of the power to the familiar may actually be making less of a joke, because it probably can't be reversed as quickly. 3) Regardless of any "hidden" control motives, the nominal purpose of the rank limit / unit law is to ensure an equitable distribution of power. In this light, a master can "split" some of his power between several familiars to be very helpful to several different units. A limiter that restricts this possibility is inefficient. Meanwhile, his power is reduced so his own unit gets an "equitable" share of capability - who cares if he does it with a limiter or by sharing out some oompf? Quote:
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1) It creates what seems to be pseudomatter buildings instead of being a glowing forcefield. While AMF is effective at dissolving forcefields and magic attacks, AMF is basically ineffective in dissolving pseudomatter. Even a full shaft AMF on the Cradle fails to dissolve Barrier Jackets and Rein. Thus, AMF might do nothing or very little on the buildings. 2) DEPTH. No matter how strong Reggie's shield is, it is only one thin plane that can be penetrated. The simfield can create countless layers and the drones' AMF effect zone is not very big. So the drones neutralize the walls one at a time, burning up seconds or worse with each wall. Remember the importance of Delay in Security. Quote:
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You have to remember that good guys getting drubbed by the bad guys in mid-game is a rather common plot, so that's not why we are bashing them. The reason is because they fell so far short in Process that it crushed the normal Literary SoD tolerance of many people, including me. Quote:
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2008-12-13, 12:15 | Link #1687 | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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There's another matter, I thought that being unable to release the limiter would be enough so I dropped it the first time. If you think Hayate would be useful at the RF6, wouldn't Hayate think she would be even more useful at GFHQ? With all the indicators they saw, they decided GFHQ was the primary target, so she decided to go along to provide extra firepower if neccessary. What are you going to say to her to convince her to stay and protect their base, contrary to the prophecy that they knew? Besides, Jail's shown no interest in their base before. How were they supposed to know it needed that level of protection? Quote:
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There's another matter, if Fate could send her excess energy to Arf, why hadn't she done so already? Why is Arf still in chibi-form at the end of the series? Perhaps you want to say she's really dumb. But with the way you keep telling me to stick to what's probable at least, isn't it more probable that she can't send that excess to Arf? We also don't know if a master can change the energy flow to the familiar on-the-fly. If that's not possible, then Fate risks not being able to access that huge flow she assigned to Arf when her limiter is released. Do you think it's wise of her to take that chance? Quote:
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Also, what's stopping the mage from reducing the flow to the familar and increasing her own capacity whenever she wants? Since that hole allows ways to cheat the limiter, I can't see why they would allow it if they implemented limiters in the first place. Quote:
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The best case scenario would be that the field's powersource is buried under the field itself and thus inaccessible to the drones until they've taken out the defenders and completed their objectives anyway. Though why a mere training field would have such a fortified system instead of an easily maintained one, I have no idea. Even in this case... Quote:
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Besides, aren't you the one who keeps saying the BJs offer no protection against actual attacks? If AMFs can't take out the psedomatter buildings fast enough, then they'll have Otto pound it until it falls. Well yes, I'm sure Shamal and Zafira will be protecting the place. But that's no different from what actually happened, so why hide in the holofield? Rather, the field is more likely a sophisticated version of an illusion spell. One that can stand up to more pounding than Teana's, but still only an illusion. That's not going to last long against an AMF. Quote:
Even if they could prevail over the Cyborgs, they'd be delayed in their primary mission, deliver the devices. Do you think they would consider that wise, when they had no idea those Cyborgs would gang up on Ginga afterwards? Quote:
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But like I said, I can't see anyone in RF6 thinking that Vivio would need that kind of protection until the attack actually hit. So it's highly unlikely to be implemented. Quote:
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2008-12-13, 12:40 | Link #1688 | |
Sleep beneath the flowers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
Age: 34
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Limiting their magical power to a lower level reduces the effects or chances of sustaining too much magical strain.
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2008-12-13, 12:54 | Link #1691 |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gaf's Room
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It does bring up the notion of a limiter being installed for health reasons. Say after StS Nanoha has no need for a limiter after but still has one primarily for her health. I can't say it well but it would be like a guardian of a young mage installing one onto their charge for their own well-being.
Hmm interesting idea.
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2008-12-13, 12:59 | Link #1692 | |
Sleep beneath the flowers
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3
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Had Nanoha had one when she was younger she probably wouldn't have gotten injured during that particular incident.
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2008-12-13, 13:59 | Link #1693 |
Hi-Eternal
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Backyard of Moriya shrine
Age: 39
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In strikers the limiters was only placed on the aces, so they were able to have so many aces in RF6. The limiter itself has nothing to do about the health issue.
Beside that, every mage does have a biological limiter in oneself to prevent using more than 80% (?) of max power. At Nanoha's incident, she didn't go over this limit. She was just tired from using too much beamspamming. Going over this biological limiter it will do more than only tiredness. |
2008-12-13, 21:06 | Link #1694 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Besides, all I'll have to say is that Hayate's abilities are not really that suited for clearing out enemies in a confined space, so she might as well stay at the base, where she can defend it over relatively open ground. Quote:
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And as I've noted above, all this can't possibly be much bigger of a loophole than limiters that are put into the hands of friends, and set to release on a hair-trigger. Quote:
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2008-12-13, 22:48 | Link #1695 |
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Join Date: May 2006
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so would this be an accurate post strikers list?
* = needs update Nanoha S+ Yuuno A Fate S+ Arf * Hayate SS Reinforce Zwei A+ Vita AAA+ Signum S- Agito A+ Shamal AA+ Zafira AA Subaru AA Teana AA Elio AA Caro A+ Ginga A* Cinque AA Nove AAA Dieci A Wendi AA Chrono AAA* Vice B+ Verossa * Schach AAA Sein A Otto B Deed AA Vivio * Lutecia S Jail * Uno A Tre S+ Quattro B Sette S Zest S+ Quint * Megane * Due A |
2008-12-13, 23:03 | Link #1696 |
Beta by Accident
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Maine
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In the A's manga, Chrono is listed as being AAA+ during Fate's exam, so he's that at the very least and probably up into the S-rankings by StrikerS.
Where are you getting figures for the Numbers, incidentally? |
2008-12-13, 23:36 | Link #1698 |
Beta by Accident
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Well, if they're accurate, it just makes Fate's victory in ep. 24 all the more incredible. OHKO on an S-rank, kicking the ass of an S+, and Jail, all in a 3-on-1 fight under AMF conditions that inhibit her but not her opponents.
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2008-12-14, 01:09 | Link #1699 | ||||||||||||||
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There's one other thing to consider. Whether at the base or GFHQ, Hayate would almost certainly be fighting at A-rank. If Carim released her limiter, there's no way she or Chrono would be able to get their release permissions renewed in time for the final battle. Quote:
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Next, we move on to the holofield. Quote:
Even if it were, I realised that there's another matter you need to address. The holofield is seperated from the other base buildings by a lot of open ground. To reach it, they'd have to get everyone out of buildings that already provide decent cover, dash across unprotected terrain, slow down at stairs before running into the field, in the middle of a battle! Most of the personnel will be easily picked off at the stairs bottleneck. Still think the field will buy you extra time? Or will it just get everyone shot faster? Then, what happens to the people inside the field in the event of an unplanned shutdown, like the PDS being destroyed for example. Will the people above ground level fall to their deaths? What about those below ground level? Quote:
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