2009-08-16, 12:17 | Link #41 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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I guess in the end it depends on which slide of the scale you prefer.
I didn't like Gurren Lagann that much but becuase of the willpower stuff but I absolutely love "A Song of Ice and Fire". It pretty much shows the opposite side of the scale and has loads of character deaths that just make it absolutely awesome. (I really recommend anyone read this) It's interesting that C.A says it's a cultural thing but I'm not so sure. You don't see much of the whole "willpower" thing outside shounen and i've seen western animation and fiction books that portray the same stuff. I don't neccessarily see it as a cop out. It can be used as a cop out some times (eg. Bleach), but I don't think Gurren Lagann using "Willpower" was a cop put. The show was pretty much based on it.
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Last edited by Haak; 2009-08-16 at 12:29. |
2009-08-16, 12:18 | Link #42 |
耳をすませば
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Age: 34
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Well, again, not realy. It's also the fact that, well, in the case of Dragonball Z, it's mentioned often that a pure heart or motivation is required to achieve those superpowers, which is why noble hearted Son Goku was able to achieve them. It's not merely that its a superpower, since the villains have superpower as well, rather that good intentions and a pure heart always gives way to strength that is naturally stronger than those from evil intentions. Same with my Harry Potter example. No matter how powerful Voldemort is, we're told that love will always be stronger.
Which is a concept which I enjoy watching and seeing. I don't know if its realistic or can really be drawn from reality.
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2009-08-16, 12:36 | Link #44 | |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU |
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2009-08-16, 12:46 | Link #45 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2009
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While I agree that it IS fiction, I think that it's much better if they can take a realistic situation and have an optimistic outcome. Just because it's realistic doesn't mean it needs to be cynical or depressing (though a lot are). Stories which have a "happy" ending but are solved realistically are my favorite types of stories because they make me still realize there is hope out there for a better world. The stories that just have things resolved by will/guts alone (or friendship or any of these other things) don't give me this same feeling because they are so far removed from reality. Most of the time, the character's strength is directly related to their will/friendship/love which is NOT true in the real world. I'll explain how I've slowly came to this conclusion (though I'm only 19). I ran cross country and track in high school and there was an American runner called Prefontaine. He ran in the 70s and was all about willpower/guts. He died at a young age and has since turned into a bit of a legened in the running community. People constantly believe if they train hard enough and have enough will they can beat anyone. I beleived that too. For a few years I believed it. Then I realized this is the real world, I can't be the best just by training hard and having a lot of will. It can get me to my best potential, but my genetics limit how fast i can go. This is a bit related to the Japanese in WW2. I know they had an intense will during the war, but since they didn't have the resources (both in materials and people to fight), they could never win against the juggernaut that was the U.S. which had plenty of people and plenty of natural resources plus damn good technology. And Japan REFUSED to give up and what did that lead to? Only more deaths. It took the detonation of two atomic bombs for them to realize "Shit, we can't win this one." If most countries were getting clobbered as hard as they were, they would surrender because they know they would lose and only more people would die if they continued. Essentially what I'm saying is that yes, willpower is a very important quality in real life BUT you need still look at the reality of things. Maybe I've just felt betrayed by the stories I've grown up with which told me "You can do anything if you try hard enough!" It definitely is a preference thing in that case, but I still feel like it's a LOT harder to craft a story that is "real" but still has a happy ending. Like I said, those are the stories that still give me hope that good things can happen in this world. Or stories that don't have "happy endings" but they aren't sad either. One I read in high school was Ordinary People which is about a teenager who sees his brother die and the depression that comes after. Spoiler for Ending to the book:
Let me give a general example: Let's say we have a romantic comedy on our hands. The male lead is in a relationship with a woman who he believes is the "one." Yet somehow the relationship ends and it is clear they will never get back together. I would love if this story ends with the guy finally getting over the girl and asking out someone else to show that he can grow and move on from things instead of having it the easy way where he and the girl magically fall back in love. |
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2009-08-16, 12:49 | Link #46 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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Actually I don't remember most of the details but I remeber it got a little boring for me after the main intial party got separated because it the story itself didn't move much, when nearly everyone who succeeds--friend or foe, hero or villain--eventually fails (i.e gets killed). Still, there was some display of willpower, and it's sole use was only to allow a just a few of the protagonists to survive.. somehow. |
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2009-08-16, 12:55 | Link #47 | |||||
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It is the same with sudden power-ups in shonen. It just happened because deep inside the target audience wanted it to happen as such. |
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2009-08-16, 13:10 | Link #48 | |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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Oh I agree, willpower is definately realistic. If you ever watch contact sports like boxing. Your mindset and psychology actually play a major role, just as much as skill even. Ever watched a game of snooker? In final you see one guy going up like several frames and your thinking how that loser of a foe ever got into the finals but then the loser foe draws level in frames and your thinking "Wow, where did that come from". It actually happens a lot in snooker. I think the mindset is talked about a lot in tennis too. You also seeing willpower coming into play if you read "Musashi" by Eiji Yoshikawa.
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2009-08-16, 13:15 | Link #49 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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hmm.. a more realistic ending, as in "Life goes on" ?
so life: - continues to suck - continues to not suck - continues to have parts that suck and not suck people loose.. find it's no big deal, then move on people win.. find it's no big deal, then move on makes things less dramatic though |
2009-08-16, 13:22 | Link #50 | |||
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In a fictional context, realism typically means this to me... 1) The fictional universe has certain rules - magical, metaphysical, scientific, spiritual, whatever - that it is governed by. It may not have the Rules of Physics, for example, but it has something in its place if the Rules of Physics aren't there. The fictional universe should be internally consistent, and imposes certain conditions on its inhabitants. For example... characters should have a certain set anatomy/biology to them, unless they're a shape-changer of some sort. If it's established at one point that, say, sunlight will kill this vampire character, then if we end up with a scene where a vampire is caught under a bright sun with no protection... that vampire should die. Period. If the vampire doesn't, the story is failing to adhere to any sort of rhyme or reason within its own fictional universe. Do you see what I'm saying here? 2) Characters act in believable ways. If you've established that a character is a pretty smart and shrewd guy, for example, then it shouldn't take him over 15,000 time loops to figure out how to break the time loop... *ahem* Quote:
Yeah, I can't defend that. Quote:
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2009-08-16, 13:28 | Link #51 |
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
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why are we even debating about bleach? its not even a good example of a manga that used will power, etc, to its fullest, some of the better examples would be ttgl and op, which many of you people who are saying that will power is boring have not mentioned at all.
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2009-08-16, 13:44 | Link #52 | |
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"I want to enter a mecha as big as the galaxy and pierce the heavens and defeat God and stop spiral nemesis from ever happenning. And I will succeed... because I want to..." And now One Piece. "Drop down!" (the enemy falls unconcious) "Turn to stone!" (the enemy is petrified) "Dance island! DANCE!" (the people of an entire island, plus Jango, start dancing) Happy now? This makes the story to look so much better... |
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2009-08-16, 14:00 | Link #54 | |
耳をすませば
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Age: 34
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To be perfectly honest though, my most satisfying kind of scenario is when underdog characters use their heads to overcome a more threatening opponent - kind of like Shikamaru from Naruto in the beginning.
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2009-08-16, 16:31 | Link #57 |
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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^It was a life or death situation from episode 1. The only thing that changed was the amount of lives that could be lost (from 2, to 3, to dozens, to hundreds, to millions, to a planet, to a galaxy, to a universe...).
edit: as so long as the fictional universe establishes the importance of an individual willpower, whether as an intrinsic force in and of itself, or simply as a means of explaining how a character can keep standing up after being brutally beaten on, then I have no problem with the use of willpower as a character device. The only time I would complain is when one character's will unnecessarily conquers another’s (i.e. there is no reason for one character to give in to another). |
2009-08-16, 16:46 | Link #58 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
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@roriconfan
ok I get it you don't like the action genre, good for you, because clearly TTGL and OP are that simplistic. Simple as that because I mean 26 episodes and TTGL boils down to "I want to enter a mecha as big as the galaxy and pierce the heavens and defeat God and stop spiral nemesis from ever happenning. And I will succeed... because I want to..." |
2009-08-16, 16:54 | Link #60 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 35
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Yes because clearly giant robots, and chimera like animal men are at the hieght of realism. I mean if TTGL billed itself for realism I could understand your complaint but its just not. TTGL is over the top, self aware of its outrageous story and it really succeeds at that.
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