Why do some manga fans blatantly lie about what is in a manga?

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I'm sorry, but I can't help but find it amusing that I'm being accused of making up recommenders who don't agree with you on what constitutes an OP or Harem story in a thread asking why so many recommenders respond to "give me a non-OP non-harem hero" with guys that easily outperform everyone, beat bad guy after bad guy and gain a rapidly-growing crowd of women begging for his hand.

I mean every post you've made on the topic assumes the OP is the one in the wrong and the people recommending him trash are making good faith arguments based on "perspective". It seems like you have someone in mind (maybe yourself?) who you're defending here, I'm just curious to know more.

Originally Posted by Question

I mean if you use "perspective" as an argument then you can justify anything. For example, someone could say that "LOTR isnt an adventure story, its a homo erotic story and the sword fight scenes are clearly analogies for sex. why? because from my perspective it is".

Yup.

I used to hang out at places like r/animesuggest from time to time and seen people both suck at recommendations and be weirdly belligerent about genre. And being specific can help but I've seen a lot of people look for manga that just doesn't exist.

I give a lot of recs but when I'm looking for something I'm partial to searching tags on places like MAL, Anime-Planet, vndb, Dex, etc.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

I mean every post you've made on the topic assumes the OP is the one in the wrong and the people recommending him trash are making good faith arguments based on "perspective". It seems like you have someone in mind (maybe yourself?) who you're defending here, I'm just curious to know more.Yup.

I used to hang out at places like r/animesuggest from time to time and seen people both suck at recommendations and be weirdly belligerent about genre. And being specific can help but I've seen a lot of people look for manga that just doesn't exist.

I give a lot of recs but when I'm looking for something I'm partial to searching tags on places like MAL, Anime-Planet, vndb, Dex, etc.

No, I never suggested that Question was "in the wrong", just that maybe the others weren't so malicious as suggested by claims of "blatant lies" and "attacks", but really did intend to give something appropriate to Question's request. I just figured it might have gone better approaching with a gentle "not quite what I was looking for" rather than opening with accusations of blatantly lying and then getting surprised when they respond in kind.

And no, I'm not talking about my, I'm talking about the crap I've seen repeatedly. I try not to go throwing accusations of deceit and ignorance at people, even if they throw them at me; however, I've seen it a lot over the years. That said, I do know that there are people who won't listen. I've dealt with one or two people who respond to any statement I make, no matter how simple, by accusing me of lying, all kinds of villainy, ignorance, and more. Not to mention doing a lot of the things they accuse me of doing, saying I'm twisting their words while misrepresenting my own statements, sometimes to the point of direct contradiction of everything I said. I'd still recommend attempts at kindness though, even if it can be hard, as things would get far worse otherwise. It doesn't matter who's "in the wrong", chances are both sides meant well.

Of course, I can't deny that some just want to troll, and if the character was indeed given superpowers from the start and never faced enemies that challenged him, while at the same time being surrounded by women that want to do him, then I certainly can't deny the possibility. This's why I asked for examples. If I asked for a peaceful story without anything disturbing and they offered me something with some disturbing material, I'd say I found some things a little disturbing, but if they suggested End of Evangelion I'd probably start listing orifices into which they could shove their suggestion. I actually think that happened once on one of my recommendation requests.

[Question]

I just figured it might have gone better approaching with a gentle "not quite what I was looking for" rather than opening with accusations of blatantly lying and then getting surprised when they respond in kind.

Its more like :

Me : You said this doesnt have a harem, so why does the MC get a party full of hot girls in the first 3 chapters and the story is about adding more hot girls to the party?

Them : You must be blind, this isnt a harem series at all!

Theres another common thing ive seen, which has to do with the GATE - JSDF manga where the JSDF invades a fantasy world and slaughters not-romans with guns.

If i say that I want to read a "reverse GATE" where the JSDF goes to a fantasy world and actually loses to the natives because they have high tier magic and can summon meteors or whatever...people will say things like "oh, thats common in manga, magical girl precure has that, the JSDF loses to magic!" and they will even suggest things like "kamen rider because the monsters are magical and the JSDF loses".

And it just makes me facepalm because a magical girl series and GATE is not even remotely similar...and the JSDF never invades a fantasy world in a magical girl series...

I cant tell if they are just bad at reading comprehension or what...

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

No, I never suggested that Question was "in the wrong", just that maybe the others weren't so malicious as suggested by claims of "blatant lies" and "attacks", but really did intend to give something appropriate to Question's request. I just figured it might have gone better approaching with a gentle "not quite what I was looking for" rather than opening with accusations of blatantly lying and then getting surprised when they respond in kind.

On one hand you're defending arguments based on "perspective" yet you're telling the OP to basically 'tone it down' -- if you don't want to acknowledge your bias that's your prerogative but where bias is concerned I'm not personally interested in taking a "gentle" approach.

Originally Posted by Question

Its more like :

Me : You said this doesnt have a harem, so why does the MC get a party full of hot girls in the first 3 chapters and the story is about adding more hot girls to the party?

Them : You must be blind, this isnt a harem series at all!

I've triggered at least a few people by calling Oregairu, Rental Girlfriend and similar series "harems" -- people can get pretty defensive about their favorites, and a lot of people make recommendations in the first place to push their favorites. Its really not worth engaging, just ask in more places and do your own research.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

On one hand you're defending arguments based on "perspective" yet you're telling the OP to basically 'tone it down' -- if you don't want to acknowledge your bias that's your prerogative but where bias is concerned I'm not personally interested in taking a "gentle" approach.I've triggered at least a few people by calling Oregairu, Rental Girlfriend and similar series "harems" -- people can get pretty defensive about their favorites, and a lot of people make recommendations in the first place to push their favorites. Its really not worth engaging, just ask in more places and do your own research.

Why should I "acknowledge bias" for saying that maybe, JUST MAYBE, neither side was acting in bad faith or being blind and stupid. And yeah, they overreacted, especially if things went the way the original poster now says it. I was reacting more to the claim of "blatant lies" and the initial way the interaction was presented. I simply tried to reason why a person might respond to that with such a defensive posture and figured maybe they themselves thought they were being attacked. That doesn't mean they were in the right, only that that may be why and, if the goal is to avoid such harsh responses, a little caution might help. If I tell someone to avoid an action that might provoke an attack from any kind of animal (humans included), that doesn't mean I think the animal has a right to attack. Personally, I prefer to try and act gentle because I've learned very well from many people in many interactions, here and elsewhere, that simply saying something someone disagrees with can get me labeled as an awful person with the most vile of opinions and result in my words being twisted, even fabricated, to fit the other person's negative image. That's why I try to tread lightly, because while I do myself tend to react when contradicted, I know others do too and I particularly hate it when these reactions and debates devolve into personal attacks.

For example, once I commented that one argument frequently made by a side I agreed with was kind of pointless and useless, and this lady blew up at me, throwing all kinds of accusations at me, accusing me of personal attacks simply because I pointed out fallacies, and getting more and more irate. I tried my best to stay reasonable and polite, not because I thought she was in any way in the right or that she had any right to feel attacked, but because I figured if this was enough to make her feel personally attacked a harsher response would result in a far worse tirade. Being reasonable and polite is always valuable, and its value increases in direct proportion to how unreasonable and rude the other side is.

And to Question, I can only say that, again, they probably thought they were giving you a good answer, or at least the best answer they could find. Fact of the matter is I don't think there is a story where an army goes to a parallel world and gets crushed by nuke-level magic. The closest you do have is magic coming to the real world and destroying armies here, which is indeed very common. They misinterpreted what sounds a bit (just a bit) like an anime version of Avatar for "magic beats military tech". I've had that happen plenty of times before. It can be hard for anyone to find something that fits what they're looking for, and a lot of people will try to recommend something that they think comes close or grab at specific parts that are common and act like they've given a great answer.

[Nachtwandler]

I really wanted to discuss other related things in this topic but looks like you are to engaged in this dicussion about harems definition. So I will not interfere further.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Question

And the fact that these guys can never bring up any real counter arguments and just resort to spamming personal attacks is also a dead give away that theres something wrong here. A normal discussion would be something like :

Me : I think this character is OP

They : I dont think they are, and this is why...

The actual "discussion" is :

Me : i think this character is OP

They : omg stop lying!!! are you blind or something??? the MC isnt OP at all!!! Downvote, DOWNVOTE!!!

I assume, then, you are not talking about this forum (since we have no downvote anyway, and this is part of why). In my experience, some places on the Internet just don't attract people looking for reasonable dialog and conversation, so you just shouldn't look for "objective recommendations" from those kinds of places. My guess is that the forum you're talking about (maybe a Subreddit?) is a place where a lot of trolling occurs on all sides, so everything becomes polarized and reactionary.

That said, I will also comment from my experience... sometimes when people relay these kinds of stories, they portray themselves as a bit more reasonable than they actually come across. For example, rather than being like "I think this character is OP", sometimes people are extremely aggressive and provocative in their phrasing, to the point of almost attacking fans of the work. Obviously I don't know about this situation, and I am not trying to accuse... but I have become skeptical over the years about any one-sided story that seems like "I was being entirely reasonable, and the other party was entirely unreasonable." It does happen for sure, but most of the time there's blame to go around.


Anyway, if you do see any of this kind of behavior on this site, please report it.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Why should I "acknowledge bias" for saying that maybe, JUST MAYBE, neither side was acting in bad faith or being blind and stupid.

The crux of your argument is kinda gaslighty though; like Question said you can use "perspective" to justify anything, even troll behavior.

Being reasonable and polite is always valuable, and its value increases in direct proportion to how unreasonable and rude the other side is.

Polite and considerate are not synonymous; you can be rude and considerate or polite and inconsiderate. Recommendations based on a divisive "perspective" are at the very least inconsiderate, regardless of how they're presented.

I'm taking it on faith that the OP gave at least an outline of what he's looking for, because I've seen plenty of vague asks like "I want a VN like DDLC" or "recommend me an anime like RWBY" or some such.

[mod edit: removed unnecessary provocation]

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Nachtwandler

I really wanted to discuss other related things in this topic but looks like you are to engaged in this dicussion about harems definition. So I will not interfere further.

Sorry, that's just sort of how it ended up, but other subjects fit just as well so feel free. Might help us get out of some of the crap we've been building up. I've certainly seen other such things. I've had several occasions where I'd ask for something and, upon looking at what people suggested, questioned both my own communication skills (or lack thereof) and their sanity. I've also seen both sides of "negative" claims about works. People can be very defensive about series they like, and very offensive about things they don't like. Heck, a manga series I made a thread about a while ago, Chisa X Pon, lots its translators and went through literally years of everyone hating and ignoring it due in large part to the fact that a certain portion of the people who claimed to have read it insisted it was NTR. And seriously, don't even think of looking back over past content in the Kaguya-sama manga thread. People can be very insistent about their take on things, good and bad.

And either way, one thing I myself learned in the recommendation section here is to be as specific possible and also become closely acquainted with the phrase "that's not quite what I was looking for". Even if it fits only one single thing, and that one only in their own mind, people will suggest stuff that leaves you wondering what they're on.

[Question]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I assume, then, you are not talking about this forum (since we have no downvote anyway, and this is part of why). In my experience, some places on the Internet just don't attract people looking for reasonable dialog and conversation, so you just shouldn't look for "objective recommendations" from those kinds of places. My guess is that the forum you're talking about (maybe a Subreddit?) is a place where a lot of trolling occurs on all sides, so everything becomes polarized and reactionary.

That said, I will also comment from my experience... sometimes when people relay these kinds of stories, they portray themselves as a bit more reasonable than they actually come across. For example, rather than being like "I think this character is OP", sometimes people are extremely aggressive and provocative in their phrasing, to the point of almost attacking fans of the work. Obviously I don't know about this situation, and I am not trying to accuse... but I have become skeptical over the years about any one-sided story that seems like "I was being entirely reasonable, and the other party was entirely unreasonable." It does happen for sure, but most of the time there's blame to go around.


Anyway, if you do see any of this kind of behavior on this site, please report it.

Yea, it happens a lot on reddit, for example, i once said that the MC of lvl 9999 gacha was too OP and it made it too easy to get his revenge and I was downvoted into oblivion. Two people who agreed with me were also mass downvoted.

[EroKing]

More often that not, you will find people disagreeing with you on teh internets not applying to just anime/manga but literally anything, just because they can or wanting to feel a sense of momentary superiority. Best thing I can suggest is to stop looking for validation and recommendations from random people. Just check anime info sites for the plot, tags, PVs and decide for yourself if it is to your tastes after watching some of the episodes. Or you know, find a good weeb friend/small group who doesn't give crap opinions and open to genuine conversations like an adult.

Personally I feel things meant for entertainment just aren't worth wasting too much time talking about, when I'll be looking back at it say 10, 20 years from now. Better to divert that energy into doing something productive and meaningful.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

And either way, one thing I myself learned in the recommendation section here is to be as specific possible and also become closely acquainted with the phrase "that's not quite what I was looking for". Even if it fits only one single thing, and that one only in their own mind, people will suggest stuff that leaves you wondering what they're on.

This is bad advice IMO. There is a time and place for everything and if people are just throwing shit at a wall that's one thing but if you're the one trying to recommend something there's nothing less helpful than "that's not quite what I was looking for". Commentary on recommendations -- especially if they're just outside the strike zone -- is a part of being "specific" and if people are sincere should get you better recommendations once they know your actual thresholds for certain elements.

Its tough to find good recommendations though, I really tend to prefer just tag surfing on MAL, Dex, VNDB, etc.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

This is bad advice IMO. There is a time and place for everything and if people are just throwing shit at a wall that's one thing but if you're the one trying to recommend something there's nothing less helpful than "that's not quite what I was looking for". Commentary on recommendations -- especially if they're just outside the strike zone -- is a part of being "specific" and if people are sincere should get you better recommendations once they know your actual thresholds for certain elements.

Its tough to find good recommendations though, I really tend to prefer just tag surfing on MAL, Dex, VNDB, etc.

Umm, why would I recommend something and say "that's not what I was looking for"? That's the reply I give when people suggest something that doesn't fit, followed up with the reason it doesn't exactly fit. In the past when I'd asked for recommendations I got very accustomed to saying that to people, even people who didn't seem to even read my request.

Also, when offering suggestions, sometimes that's all I do is say "you might find something good looking at this trope or this tag on MAL, BakaUpdates, etc." At least if I don't have something that I think is a really good fit and a really good watch/read.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Umm, why would I recommend something and say "that's not what I was looking for"? That's the reply I give when people suggest something that doesn't fit, followed up with the reason it doesn't exactly fit. In the past when I'd asked for recommendations I got very accustomed to saying that to people, even people who didn't seem to even read my request.

Your stance seems fluid but I digress; there's two major problems with suggestion threads: people who give suggestions for self satisfaction and to basically push their favorite series and people who ask for recommendations expecting someone can read their fucking mind. If someone asks for recommendations and isn't willing to engage on what they like and dislike its hard to give them anything other than the most basic of suggestions, and mindless politeness with no follow up just feeds the self satisfaction types.

Suggestions would work better IMO if more people did what the OP claims he did and said straight up "this character is too OP" in response to a suggestion that didn't work for him but so far you've been more concerned with the recommender's sense of self satisfaction and ability to argue for their recommendation or something when IMO they should just give a fucking better recommendation, especially now that they should have a clearer picture of what the person asking wants. Maybe I'm misinterpreting something but I still think its overall bad advice to put politeness over engagement.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

Your stance seems fluid but I digress; there's two major problems with suggestion threads: people who give suggestions for self satisfaction and to basically push their favorite series and people who ask for recommendations expecting someone can read their fucking mind. If someone asks for recommendations and isn't willing to engage on what they like and dislike its hard to give them anything other than the most basic of suggestions, and mindless politeness with no follow up just feeds the self satisfaction types.

Suggestions would work better IMO if more people did what the OP claims he did and said straight up "this character is too OP" in response to a suggestion that didn't work for him but so far you've been more concerned with the recommender's sense of self satisfaction and ability to argue for their recommendation or something when IMO they should just give a fucking better recommendation, especially now that they should have a clearer picture of what the person asking wants. Maybe I'm misinterpreting something but I still think its overall bad advice to put politeness over engagement.

Trust me, my stance has never been near as fluid as you see it. More like you interpret it in a certain way, and when I try to be a bit clearer you claim I'm changing my mind. If my stance seems softer, it's because I've changed my initial assumptions. As I said before, the author's initial portrayal, along with the way the thread was titled, led me to believe that the author had responded in a way that could be seen as angry or confrontational, but if they weren't confrontational then obviously that's another matter.

And again, saying straight up "this thing you said isn't OP is OP" would be confrontational in some eyes. You seem to be conflating a desire to reduce conflict with a desire to make one side or another the "bad guy". I'm not saying you should make the posters feel some kind of "self-satisfaction" for posting a recommendation that doesn't fit your wishes, just that you stand less likelihood of getting attacked or downvoted if you're a bit more cautious to avoid words that might make them feel like they are being attacked. Avoiding conflict doesn't mean you think they deserve to feel proud of their suggestion, and honestly I don't see how someone would feel any pride in a suggestion that the poster says doesn't really fit. It just means you don't want to deal with even more unreasonable reactions.

But then, there are some for whom no manner of care will have any effect, who will always look for some way to make some individuals out as hypocrites, stupid or just plain bad people, like they can't bear to interpret a statement as in any way acceptable. In those cases, there is no winning and you should probably just leave. Of course, these conversations last so long with me because "just leaving" is something I'm VERY bad at.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

And again, saying straight up "this thing you said isn't OP is OP" would be confrontational in some eyes.

Walls of text clearly isn't helping me understand so give me an concise example of how you would tell someone "this is more harem (or power fantasy, magical girl, mecha, borderline H, whatever) than I'm looking for" or "this is a harem (etc.) to me" to a suggestion that just doesn't click for you.

I don't ask for many recommendations but I did ask on the VN subreddit last year and ended up getting sucked into a conversation about Denpa.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

Walls of text clearly isn't helping me understand so give me an concise example of how you would tell someone "this is more harem (or power fantasy, magical girl, mecha, borderline H, whatever) than I'm looking for" or "this is a harem (etc.) to me" to a suggestion that just doesn't click for you.

I don't ask for many recommendations but I did ask on the VN subreddit last year and ended up getting sucked into a conversation about Denpa.

Basically what you said, "This feels too much like OP/harem/magical girl/mecha to me" or possibly "when I said (insert item here) what I meant was..." followed by a more concise explanation. Simple, straight to the point. At most, as my slight alteration shows, I'd make it more my opinion. But then, that's not a matter of "here" but rather just something I typically try to do in general, as I've been part of some seriously messed up arguments in the past in part, I think, due to coming across as saying things as absolute and making it sound like people who disagreed with me were clearly morons to not realize. I might be far off on that, but still it's resulted in me at least wanting to emphasize that my views are my views and not necessarily any more valid than others'.

Also, sorry for the walls of text. I just noticed years ago that people had even more trouble understanding me when I didn't get everything out, and I'm just naturally verbose in general. I know even with this I'm often confusing, maybe even more so since my meaning can get lost in repetitions and excessive content, but as I said being concise and clear has never been a forte for me.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Basically what you said, "This feels too much like OP/harem/magical girl/mecha to me" or possibly "when I said (insert item here) what I meant was..." followed by a more concise explanation. Simple, straight to the point. At most, as my slight alteration shows, I'd make it more my opinion. But then, that's not a matter of "here" but rather just something I typically try to do in general, as I've been part of some seriously messed up arguments in the past in part, I think, due to coming across as saying things as absolute and making it sound like people who disagreed with me were clearly morons to not realize. I might be far off on that, but still it's resulted in me at least wanting to emphasize that my views are my views and not necessarily any more valid than others'.

FWIW, I generally agree with you. A lot of times (not always) when you get a strongly negative reaction to a statement (like the OP talking about fans getting defensive and "downvote! downvote!") it's because the person is stating their personal opinions as absolutes, and not leaving room for nuance or perspective. I've seen this over and over on this forum over the years. In a broad sense, people are generally accepting that different people have different opinions and perspectives about stuff, as long as they feel their own perspectives are also being respected. People sometimes act like fans of a work can't stand criticism, but almost always it's because of the way the criticism is phrased or framed, not the simple fact that someone had a negative opinion.

Consider this thread, where the thread-starter is accusing people of "blatantly lying" about the content of shows. That's a harsh accusation, and it's because to the thread-starter these questions are more broad and "black-and-white." But it's not accepting of the fact that, to fans of the genre, there's a lot more nuance to how they apply the descriptions and labels to distinguish works from one another. So there's a major difference of perspective here, but the thread-starter assumes that everything should be cut and dry the way they see it. So when people take this kind of "absolutes-only this shouldn't be a matter of opinion" stance on things, of course it leads to conflict. And the way to bridge that gap is for both sides to 1) realize that a massive difference in perspective exists, 2) respect that difference, and 3) try to understand each other and arrive at an understanding. So I think phrasing like "This feels to me like <x> to me..." or clarifying what you meant to explain your perspective is the right approach in general, even though it might not always work out. The conversation has to be based on mutual respect, so more helpful to assume the other party isn't "blatantly lying" but just either didn't understand you or has a very different point of view on what you meant.

In other words, people need to be better at diplomacy. It seems like a lost skill in many online circles these days.

[stray]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Consider this thread, where the thread-starter is accusing people of "blatantly lying" about the content of shows. That's a harsh accusation, and it's because to the thread-starter these questions are more broad and "black-and-white." But it's not accepting of the fact that, to fans of the genre, there's a lot more nuance to how they apply the descriptions and labels to distinguish works from one another.

I think a problem that you're overlooking here is that fandoms can be myopic and subject to a lot of groupthink where its decided that a work is "better" than its genre (harem, power fantasy, etc.) or maybe even more often its demographic (its dark so it can't be shonen!) even if that opinion is outside what the general anime community thinks. And I still think its on the more "knowledgeable" party to not take someone else's opinion personally, because once a stupid argument breaks out other people tune out. Case in point:

Originally Posted by Nachtwandler

I really wanted to discuss other related things in this topic but looks like you are to engaged in this dicussion about harems definition. So I will not interfere further.

So I'm still of the opinion that a recommendation thread is not the place for someone's "perspective" no matter what the circumstances, and no one really owes anyone anything for a recommendation to begin with.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by stray

I think a problem that you're overlooking here is that fandoms can be myopic and subject to a lot of groupthink where its decided that a work is "better" than its genre (harem, power fantasy, etc.) or maybe even more often its demographic (its dark so it can't be shonen!) even if that opinion is outside what the general anime community thinks. And I still think its on the more "knowledgeable" party to not take someone else's opinion personally, because once a stupid argument breaks out other people tune out. Case in point:

[...]

So I'm still of the opinion that a recommendation thread is not the place for someone's "perspective" no matter what the circumstances, and no one really owes anyone anything for a recommendation to begin with.

On the contrary, a recommendation thread is entirely about getting the perspectives of others. It's not like there's some sort of objective standard by which we can neatly place things into categories that everyone will agree with. As we clearly showed here, even asking "is this a harem anime or not?" or "is the protagonist overpowered or not?" can have different answers. Things that one party considers "black-and-white" another may consider a matter of degrees. When people have different perspectives you have misunderstandings. You can't engineer a circumstance in an open discussion where these kinds of different perspectives are just going to go away.

The important thing is for people to properly explain themselves. And yes, sometimes the person speaking maybe an extreme fan just parroting rhetoric and can't make a convincing argument -- you quickly learn whose opinions to ignore. But even "groupthink" is rarely as uniform as you think -- fans of a given work will themselves get into arguments about these sorts of things. It may be that the person asking does not want to get into a "debate" about the finer nuance and just want a clear-cut answer (or people may consider this kind of debate a "stupid argument"), but by knowing there is nuance here is a good lesson learned: it means you need to be more clear and precise to avoid misunderstandings and derailing.

In other words, if you ask fans of a work if it can accurately be given a label that some consider a sort of pejorative, you can expect pushback. So if you want a better answer, you need to ask a better question. They're the ones asking for the recommendation after all, so the onus is on them if they want to get a useful reply.

(To the point of this thread, did the thread starter consider the fact that maybe the people involved weren't lying and were sincere in their beliefs due to a difference in perspective? Or is this just "go to another forum, bash anonymous fanboys elsewhere, and everyone has a good chuckle at how biased fanboys are"? If it's the latter, why the hell should we allow an attack thread like that on this site where we don't have any evidence and the accused can't speak for themselves? Absent all the evidence, you have to give people the benefit of the doubt. If we want to have a serious discussion about how groupthink can bias a fanbase, we certainly can, but I question the loaded premise here. Accusing someone of "blatantly lying" is flamebait, at the very least.)