Equality of Men and Women?

[Vexx]

The only thing I'll comment on here is that a single parent family is, by definition, a highly stressful situation. There's a reason people tend to socially cooperate and raise children in a group (two or more adults). Its better for the children on average because they grow in a mesh of support rather than a single-point-failure potential situation.

In my case, we have a "traditional" (more on that later) family situation... but these days its more of a commune: I work part time, my wife works full time, I'm going to school to learn a new trade, my older son and his girlfriend live with us -- both work full time and contribute to the household expenses. My younger son is attending highschool.

I have a friend who lives in Canada: technically she's raising two adopted chinese girls on her own... in actuality, she's part of a social net of single parents who share the load in child-rearing (timesharing) so the two girls have several "aunts" and "uncles". I'm aware of a multiplicity of other family arrangements as well.

It doesn't *have* to be a 1950s "traditional" family. That meme is incredibly misleading if you examine child-rearing social structures over the last few thousand years in various cultures). The meme is a false image basically constructed during white dominated 1950s America after the dissolution of the typical *extended* family.

"It takes a village to raise a child" was a pretty dorky slogan... but having several people participate in raising a child certainly enhances the potential for successful new adults.

(there's a philosophically flawed meme being presented in this thread that opinions automatically have value... but that's a different topic)

[Anh_Minh]

I agree that it's better to have several adults raising the kids. But it doesn't mean a couple should try at all costs to stay together, even when it quite obviously isn't working out.

If anything, it's more of an argument for forbidding marriage and childmaking to people under thirty...

[Risaa]

Originally Posted by Thewanderer

If you know me, you'd know that I can hardly articulate anything.

I'm not trying to be rude or mean, but it's about how you're presenting yourself. What's ironic is that you've been saying that we keep misunderstanding you and putting you in bad light, but it ties *directly* to what you just said here^. We *don't* know you, so we're taking what you say and *how* you say it to try to understand you.

D'oh, two people snuck in before me. Mah, I should've dropped this.

[WanderingKnight]

I agree that it's better to have several adults raising the kids. But it doesn't mean a couple should try at all costs to stay together, even when it quite obviously isn't working out.

My mother lived in a family that was clearly not working out and kept on living together anyways, and she was quite traumatized by the matter (and I firmly believe she still is, even when she does her best to deny it).

The only thing I'll comment on here is that a single parent family is, by definition, a highly stressful situation.

I agree; however, that doesn't equate to a woman being less able than a man when it comes to raise a child to be independent.

[Vexx]

Absolutely.. note I didn't say that an arrangement should be held together at all costs. Only that having several people participate in child-rearing tends to reduce that desire at 3am to smother the child who has colic so you can get an hour of uninterrupted sleep (babies make the best interrogators ... how many lights do you see, Picard?)

A variety of solutions are possible but the child should experience a certain level of security in their situation. The role model issue is more debatable, but it is a bit easier for a child to connect to someone more like them when younger. However, the most important cultural meme to transfer is ethical principles and social skills .... not "how to be a man" (or woman) ... frankly, that sometimes transfers rather unappetizing behavior models (e.g. (yeah, son.. they lahks it when you hit 'em on the haid)... (ah just don't know what I'd do without a man))

I don't see anything in the code of Scouting or some form of chivalry that shouldn't apply to both sexes. Hold the door open for people. Pick up after yourself. Treat other people as you'd wish to be treated. Actively support the community you're in. Try to make sense when you communicate.

@Anh: yes.. its too bad we can't just spray people with something. I imagine most people under 30 might like to avoid both so they can get a good financial basis going forward and spend more time making a better lifemate(s) choice. OTOH... we seem to have a lot of humans in the 20-something ages with terrible track records in regard to figuring out how to be adults yet remember how to play ... and not be asses while doing either.

[Thewanderer]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I agree that it's better to have several adults raising the kids. But it doesn't mean a couple should try at all costs to stay together, even when it quite obviously isn't working out.

There wouldn't be so many cases of relationships not working out if people wasn't so loose with marriage, lowering their standards, etc. Lots of people rush into marriage with only short-term goals. The marriages that work are mainly ones that were carefully planned out, with two people that know what they're getting into. And under those situations, odds are they won't "get tired of each other" so quickly.

IMO, mainstream divorces are just a result of society again lowering standards for careless people.

[Vexx]

Ignoring any religious aspects... marriage is a legal instrument of great binding that *shouldn't* be entered into lightly. I've become a fan of some forms of matchmaking services in that it reduces the "hormone-only" choice making and then spending years figuring out how to "live with" and "like" this person you've attached to. "Arranged marriages" are a primitive form of that but often suffer from the financial and political corruption involved (how many cattle to take my daughter, eh?). Modern society arranged marriages are more like matchmaking on a small scale (witness Nyamo in Azumanga checking out a prospect her mother found -- she's not bound, only that she's targeting 'more likely to succeed' chances first before letting the hormones make the final choice).

Hmmm, being 25... Thewanderer doesn't *remember* how tough it was to get a divorce before the 1980s. Women applying for divorce who were being obviously beaten by their husbands would be told they were part of the problem and they should work it out.... by judges. There's a very good reason not to go back to that.

OTOH, I think marriage and childrearing should be a LOT tougher to get into for the reason I've just stated. Anh's suggestion of "not less than 30" also has the benefit of both parties more likely to be financially independent so that one side doesn't FEEL trapped by the situation.

[Thewanderer]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Hmmm, being 25... Thewanderer doesn't *remember* how tough it was to get a divorce before the 1980s. Women applying for divorce who were being obviously beaten by their husbands would be told they were part of the problem and they should work it out.... by judges. There's a very good reason not to go back to that.

I think there should be exceptions for any rule. And while I stick to my belief that divorce should be more strict, I would consider a violent marriage to be a very logical exception. That's also why I think humans should find some way to be more careful to who they're marrying... to prevent most violent marriages in the first place.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Thewanderer

You seem to think every decision made in today's world isn't hurting anyone. That's false. Take single mothers for example. They seem to think that they can raise a child all by themselves because they can. They should get a man(or at least some kind of partner), or not get seperated from the kid's father, and not put their selfish desires over the welfare of their child/children.

Do you honestly believe that every decision about whether to stay married represents a free choice?

How about me? I've spent the last fifteen+ years raising my daughter single-handedly because her mother became a hopeless alcholic a year or so after my daugher was born. I haven't remarried; hell, I hardly ever date. Many single parents find it hard to balance romance, sexuality, and child-rearing, along with the demands of earning an income and managing a household. So finding a new spouse or partner often gets moved to the back burner. I didn't put my "selfish desires" ahead of my daughter; if anything, I've done quite the reverse. I left my professional career as a academic because it was too demanding to raise a toddler and be a serious scholar. I took on my current, not very well paying, career of a free-lance IT consultant because I could run my business out of my home and look after my child. There's no way she (or I) would have been better-off trying to preserve a marriage where her mother was a drunkard just because of some traditional notion about the supposed benefits of having both parents at home. Believe me, there are lots of families for whom that's just not true.

Originally Posted by innominate

Well, of course, men can continue with the jobs that they have been doing all along, but do they have the liberty to back down from their jobs so freely as women are able to? A man who takes up household jobs is regarded as a wimp, or a sissy, or simply someone who has failed his job as the breadwinner of the family.

Most everyone who knows us thinks my daughter has grown up to be a wonderful person and thinks highly of me for whatever part I've played in her development. It wasn't easy being a single father with a small child; our society (here in the US; can't speak about elsewhere) still doesn't know how to deal with that type of family yet. Nevertheless none of my friends, nor anyone whose opinion I might value, would think me a "wimp," a "sissy," or "someone who has failed his job as the breadwinner of the family." If anything, I think my efforts as a parent improved my stature in the their eyes.

One day, a few years back, I came to realize that the most important thing I've ever done in my life was raising my daughter. It took so long for me to realize this because our society doesn't encourage boys to think that child-rearing is an important or valuable activity. I've earned a doctorate, written some articles, and even won an award or two, just as I was "trained" to do. Believe me, none of that comes close to being as significant as my "career" as a parent. It took a long time for me to bend my mind around that fact and not think I was somehow a failure in life because I'm not a tenured professor some place with a dozen books to my name.

The world is an incredibly diverse place. Along with traditional two-parent families, I've met divorced and widowed single parents of both genders, single mothers (though not single fathers) by choice, and families headed by one or two homosexual parents again of both genders. Over the long haul, the structure of the family pales into insignificance compared with whether that family is based on mutual love and respect and has sufficient economic resources to provide a decent upbringing for the kids. Only in the past half-century or so have our cultural norms started to become accepting of that diversity. And, it's clear to me, we're only at the beginning of a very long road.

Originally Posted by AnhMinh

If anything, it's more of an argument for forbidding marriage and childmaking to people under thirty...

Well, we were both well over thirty when we had my daughter. Being older might help, but it's neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for familial happiness.

[Anh_Minh]

I didn't say it was, but the divorce rate does drop dramatically when compared to people marrying at twenty.

[Thewanderer]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Do you honestly believe that every decision about whether to stay married represents a free choice?

How about me? I've spent the last fifteen+ years raising my daughter single-handedly because her mother became a hopeless alcholic a year or so after my daugher was born. I haven't remarried; hell, I hardly ever date. Many single parents find it hard to balance romance, sexuality, and child-rearing, along with the demands of earning an income and managing a household. So finding a new spouse or partner often gets moved to the back burner. I didn't put my "selfish desires" ahead of my daughter; if anything, I've done quite the reverse. I left my professional career as a academic because it was too demanding to raise a toddler and be a serious scholar. I took on my current, not very well paying, career of a free-lance IT consultant because I could run my business out of my home and look after my child. There's no way she (or I) would have been better-off trying to preserve a marriage where her mother was a drunkard just because of some traditional notion about the supposed benefits of having both parents at home. Believe me, there are lots of families for whom that's just not true.

Like I said earlier, I believe that there should be exceptions to every rule. I'm sorry to hear about your situation, but there's no need to point out real life examples.

Yes, I believe you made the right decision in leaving your child's drunk mother.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Thewanderer

I'm sorry to hear about your situation, but there's no need to point out real life examples.

Well, I was hoping we might talk about "real life" here, not simply expressing opinions on the way things "ought" to be.

[Thewanderer]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Well, I was hoping we might talk about "real life" here, not simply expressing opinions on the way things "ought" to be.

Not a bad idea. Not sure where I'd start though...

[Lexander]

My parents used to fight so much I hoped that they would just get a divorce.

Having unhappy parents that pretty much hate each other is no better in my opinion.

As a result I never want to get married. It's just unnecessary ...
You can always do cohabitation and it doesn't have any legal, tradional or religious baggage to go with it.

[innominate]

Apologies to SeijiSensei if I have offended you, but your situation is peculiarly different in the sense that you have not really backed down from your job.

Seeing that this thread has deviated into parenting vs career I can't really comment because I have *absolutely* no experience in this area. If I can offer any opinion representative of the younger generation it would be the fact that while we recognise that parenting is important, it is still a pretty distant idea for us. On the other hand, the education system gears us so hard towards career planning that it is almost impossible for us not to feel that career is by far much more important than parenting.

At least, from where I come from.

But if this has anything to do with the gender equality issue to begin with... Oot. pardon.

[SeijiSensei]

I actually was somewhat offended when I first read your comment, but on re-reading decided you were describing what you saw as social norms and not necessarily expressing your own feelings on the matter.

I don't think we've deviated from the question of equality, though. Traditional gender roles assigned primary responsibility for careers to men and parenting to women. I just wanted to point out that, in the modern world, these simple equations just don't have any relevance. Also I thought it was important to interject an older person's perspective into this discussion since most people here haven't had any real experience yet with managing the issues most adults face every day.

If the educational system gears both boys and girls towards career planning, that's probably an improvement over the "girls take home ec, boys take shop" model that most high schools had when I was growing up. On the other hand, if it means that neither boys nor girls are taught anything at all about parenting and family life, then that seems like a big loss in my eyes. For most people, raising kids and managing a family are two of the most important responsibilities they'll ever face. If, as a society, we've forgotten that fact in some misguided attempt to say that equality for men and women simply means both of them can have careers, who in your generation will be prepared to face the responsibilities of family life? I had to do a lot of "on-the-job" learning because, as I said, I was totally unprepared for how my life turned out. Training only the girls for these tasks was also wrong-headed; we need to be training both sexes about what adulthood entails.

Oh, and while my situation may be "peculiarly different" to you, in fact, the number of men engaged in single-parenting has been growing rapidly over the past couple of decades. A quick retabulation of some of these data from the US Census Bureau shows that households with single fathers grew from about 2% of all households in the early 1980's to just under 5% in 2006. Sure those are still small percentages of the overall total, but the growth rate is substantial. Moreover that 5% represents about 3.5 million households, hardly an insignificant figure. In comparison, households headed by a single female grew from about 22% to 28% in the same time frame, a similar absolute increase but a much smaller relative increase. (Households headed by two parents have declined from about 85% in the mid-1960's to 67% in 2006.) These specific figures come from this spreadsheet.

[OutPhase]

Originally Posted by Lexander

My parents used to fight so much I hoped that they would just get a divorce.

Having unhappy parents that pretty much hate each other is no better in my opinion.

My Parents fought all the time and got a divorce. Most of the fights happened because my dad worked all night and slept all day and never did anything around the house or hang out with me and my other four siblings since he would be dead tired by the time he came home in the morning. Now, he works day shifts two years after splitting up.

Oh the irony.

[Aoie_Emesai]

Originally Posted by Razer_2mb

My Parents fought all the time and got a divorce. Most of the fights happened because my dad worked all night and slept all day and never did anything around the house or hang out with me and my other four siblings since he would be dead tired by the time he came home in the morning. Now, he works day shifts two years after splitting up.

Oh the irony.

Was it impossible for him to do that during his stay with you and your sibilings? That may have fixed it a bit.

[Vexx]

Razer's story is typical in that it takes two to fight or tango. Working night shift is Really Hard on many people. So his mom was being pretty unreasonable in her expectations. OTOH, we don't know how hard he was looking for daywork, it may have been the nightshift paid sufficiently better but that the loss in family wasn't balanced well. Too many men still think as long as they bring a paycheck home, that's sufficient. It may have taken the divorce for his dad to figure out what is really important... or it may be that he knew but was trapped until seniority let him move to dayshift.

Unlike Dr. Phil's psycho-show where he "fixes it in an hour" (he really doesn't and says it can take months/years to work things out but the show leaves that appearance), situations are always more complicated than 'he's wrong and I'm right' and vice versa.

More on topic: equality between genders can still mean people attend to different tasks in their domestic affairs. The trick is to split the work in a somewhat even fashion.
Over the years, my wife and I have changed our task-loads and expectations depending on the needs.
Currently, I work part time and attend school to learn a new career, she works full time.
I do laundry and clean up in the kitchen. She cooks and shops. (some overlap there as we each train the other).
We both fail miserably in cleaning up the rest of the house but its sort of shared. I have primary duties in "the plumbing is stopped up", the haul to the garbage dump, and house projects (redoing the bathroom, etc). She has queenliness over the yard projects (new gardens, plants, etc) though the rest of us get drafted for "I pick things up and put them down" tasks.

In the past, I've worked full time while she went part-time. We took turns attempting to avoid smothering the children at 3am when they were torturing us. I've turned down career opportunities and so has she, depending on the situation... and we've both taken opportunities as well when it meant problems for the other.

None of which means we haven't had our share of heated disputes, near-separation, and angry silences I've just learned that *resolution* isn't necessarily required, but listening is. And she's learned that people with ADD may have the best intentions in the world but they're fighting their own internal demons that are just as frustrating for them as it is for their family

[Theowne]

This argument can keep going, and the "conservative" voice can get louder and louder, but it looks clear to me that the future of society is equality. No one telling others what they "should" want to do (P.S. I don't really understand that position, by the way. It just seems to be an indirect way of saying that you yourself think they should all do it.)

In my generation, I see no distinction in terms of working or staying at home, between men and women. It is automatically assumed that everyone, both boys and girls, will be going towards some sort of education and a career. There's no line between men and women.