2011-11-30, 18:30 | Link #601 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Austria
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@Taichi:
This show makes me realise that I tend to approach shows in terms of "social constituents". That is: you have individuals and relations, and some of those relations are "more than the sum of its parts". Taichi and Chihaya are clearly a social constituent. It's this that makes "shipping wars" possible, but romance is only a particular angle at which you can few the situation. So: Quote:
And notice how she internalizes his point later that night--she takes his words as the confirmation of the low opinion other people have about her for being "blind to everything but karuta," and tells herself "I'm no good. / No good at all." They don't communicate well.you're right. But the conclusion would be they need to learn to communicate better, no? Just as Chihaya is "soically blind", Taichi has "success issues". This is why Taichi looks at the Karuta club in terms of success strategies, and doesn't get that to Chihaya winning isn't as important as being part of a team. (Why didn't Chihaya make friends in the karuta society she'd used to practise? It's at least partly because - to her - winning was a means to keep up that social consituent. She simply liked her role therein a lot.) And this is sort of the point: neither Taichi nor Chihaya are natural team players. Chihaya has the attitude, but not the skills. Taichi has the skills, but not the attitude. Together, though, they make the karuta club possible. And that's because - even if they don't get each other - they trust each other enough to listen in critical situation. That goes both ways. Notice how Nishida replied to Chihaya's apology in terms of group coherence: "Sure, you're a bit bossy. But every group needs someone like that." This is a lesson both Taichi and Chihaya have to learn: group think for coherence' sake. [qutote]but hitting your wanna-be girl-friend with your phone on the head is pretty unsublimated violence. [/quote] Actually, I think you have to hit Chihaya to break through her enthusiasm, when you need to change the topic. She didn't really notice Taichi's changed posture, did she? (If she did, she didn't bother to react to it.) It's simply the most effective way to communicate with her. You don't do it to strangers, but Taichi and Chihaya have known each other for quite some time; long enough to know what works. I wouldn't read too much into that. I think he hit her to save time and nerves; didn't relish having to point 3 - 5 times towards that message before Chihaya finally notices that he has something to tell her. |
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2011-11-30, 18:56 | Link #602 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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Hence female characters tend to get hated by female fans & male characters by male fans. Personally I never got character hate. Now I understand not liking the way a character is written or being bored with a character, but some people seem to take their dislike of a character personal. And half the time their dislike stems from misinterpretation of what is going on. Okay I think I am getting side tracked a bit here because in this case I am thinking of Taichi more so than Chihaya (he seems to be the the character to bash in this thread). Some people just do not understand the point of a character flaw. Taichi isn't perfect but if he was he would be a boring character. I mean for example people are complaining because Taichi doesn't have the courage to confess to Chihaya. Of course it's a flaw he has to grow out of it. Taichi has to realize that he can't give up just because the "odds are against him". It's what character development is all about. Now personally I like Taichi the most because of those flaws. But I don't think the other characters are free of flaws. I do think Chihaya is flawed as well in the way her mind is so focused on Karuta. It's good to be passionate about something but there is such a thing of being too into something that you ignore everything else. I don't think it really matters that Chihaya doesn't get "romance" for instance but the issue is it's not just romance, she doesn't get a lot of things because of her "obsession" with Karuta. Of course Chihaya should keep her passion but she needs to learn to balance that passion with other things in her life. Anyways as for Chihaya ending up with Arata or Taichi, it does seem her feelings are for Arata but the issue is her feelings are for a memory of the Arata she remembers as a child. She hasn't seen Arata for a long time and she doesn't know the real Arata. Taichi however is right there with her. I am not really sure who Chihaya will end up with in the end but personally I find the relationship between Chihaya and Taichi the most compelling because it's based on real interaction not an ideal which might not be what Chihaya even imagines in her head.
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2011-11-30, 20:00 | Link #603 |
Eternal Dreamer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Caladan
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I'm on the Arata ship (though I know Chihaya most likely will not end up with him.) First I thought he has physical features of a guy who will end up with the heroine. (He's just too hot.) But then he has little screen time, no development, nothing. Hmmm, but that's not unusual. (There was Fantastic Children. The girl ended up with a guy who came out of nowhere right?) However there's one thing that is against Arata ending up with Chihaya. He has this accent thing. The heroine just doesn't end up with a guy who has an accent.
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2011-11-30, 20:47 | Link #604 | |||
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You're right, I expressed myself poorly. What I mean is that, him being from the main trio (and amongst the characters who will mostly frequently appear) he is someone who probably will often get lots of screen time. So I wanted to like him. But I can't. The stuff he does I just can't accept. I mean, it is good for the conflict in the story and all but if the dude still have his crush on Chihaya he should drop that "phantom" girlfriend and go for it already. If he moved on, don't want to risk his friendship relationship or whatever he should stop teasing over her already or getting jealous over Arata; be assertive you know? I guess I have low tolerance of it, I could even bare a bit when he was a kid but by now I think the man should have decided himself already. On the other side of the "is good for the conflict" that the author needs for the story, yeah, that's definetely gonna end bad if he keeps like that. Which is good for the story. And justified it's bad for him and he should drop it already. Both at the same time. But in the end it just prevents me from liking the guy. He's not worthy that awesome and charismatic main heroine Chihaya is proving to be! xD Quote:
And Chihaya has qualities that might be good in a male lead, albeit a little normal (the fact she is female with that personality does add some original colors to that same personality). But that wouldn't be the male lead type I dislike. Those new age "herbivorous men", totally passive and angsty... I can withstand they a bit the series in general seems oversaturated with those. That bothers me more than the character type itself. They shouldn't receive that spotlight so often, as if they are "promoting" this behaviour. We need more strong characters (albeit aloof, naive, singleminded or whatever other flaw) like Chihaya please. Last edited by Setsuryuu; 2011-11-30 at 21:32. Reason: Just saw the Kirarakim post and thought about commenting it too. |
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2011-11-30, 23:50 | Link #608 | ||
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If a male classmate had given Taichi the Kid a letter to pass on to Chihaya, I think that Taichi the Kid would have discreetly opened it up, read it, and if he determined it to be a threat to his chances at romance with Chihaya, he would have tore it up and thrown it in the garbage when the person who had given him the letter wasn't looking.
Taichi the Teenager receives a text message from Arata to pass on to Chihaya, and he actually does so in spite of how it certainly can't help Taichi's chances with her. That's the key change and difference. Taichi is much more of a decent human being now than he was as a kid, imo. I like Taichi now, but I don't see the point in glossing over how jerkish he was as a kid. Much of what I now like about Taichi, and find interesting about him, is how far he's morally developed from where he was as a kid. But what hasn't changed (and I'm glad this hasn't changed) is his core personality. He's still very socially aware, he still tends towards being image-conscious, he still holds the same views towards competitions in general. ThereminVox put it best with "I really appreciate the consistency of character. He's grown a lot since being a little creep in grade school, but it's not like he's another person." Bingo. He's a nicer and more decent person, but he's the same person, and you can feel that with his mannerisms, his predispositions, and his general practicality. Quote:
Competitions are more interesting when there's some doubt as to their outcome, and when real effort is needed to even have a chance of achieving victory in them. Then, should victory be achieved, it'll feel all the more rewarding than it would be if you had easily and predictably cruised to it. That's a key counterargument to the ideas that Taichi's mom imparted on him, and I suspect that this is something he may soon learn. Quote:
I think people generally find it easier to identify directly with a major same-gender character than with a major opposite-gender character. There are exceptions to this, of course, but it is a common tendency I think. So for some male fans (including myself) it's a bit easier for me to put myself in Taichi's shoes and ask myself "Would I do what he's doing?" than it is for me to put myself in Chihaya's shoes and ask myself "Would I do what she's doing?". When the identify-with character is handling things at least as good as you think you yourself would, you'll support and probably like that character, and that's why I support and like Taichi now. But when the identify-with character is handling things worse than you think you yourself would, that's when criticisms tend to rise to the surface, and so can even hatred of the character if there's a large gulf between the character's actions and what you think you would do if in that character's shoes. So being the "identify-with character" is actually as much a curse as it is a blessing (if not more of a curse than a blessing). Such a character will tend to get judged more thoroughly (and at times harshly) since that character is more likely to be measured against the viewer's own personal standards for good/understandable behavior. Should the character pass the test, s/he can become an all-time favorite (this, I think, is a key reason why Kyon of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya is so popular with many male fans of the show; he passes this test for most male fans of the show). Should the character fail the test, though, s/he often becomes despised and hated on (this, I think, is why many male anime fans - including myself, I admit - tend to think lowly of your average harem anime male lead). Now, with Chihaya, she simply needs to be fun and entertaining in order for me to like her. I don't identify directly with her, so it's not like I consistently ask myself "Would I do what she's doing?". With all of this in mind, this is also why I think male/female fans can split widely on moe characters. Male fans often simply need to find the moe character to be fun and/or entertaining and/or endearing, while female fans are more likely to evaluate that character on the basis of what they would do if in her shoes. To get back to Chihayafuru, I more or less agree with you on Taichi as he is now, as a teenager. He's a very well-rounded character, with a good mix of likable qualities with enriching character flaws (some of which double as good hurdles for him to overcome in time, I think). On the whole romance conflict issue, I'm actually not that convinced of Chihaya-Arata at this point. Arata has been "off screen" for a long time now, during which the bond between Chihaya and Taichi has been steadily developing and growing. Basically, Taichi now has a bit of a headstart on Arata, imo. There's no substitution to simply spending time with the person you're in love with, and it's here where I see the narrative possibly favoring Taichi over Arata. I didn't feel this way two or three episodes ago, but I do feel this way now, as Arata has remained a shadowy off-camera presence more than I had thought he would (I'm fine with this though, it'll make his eventual return that much more eventful).
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2011-12-01, 01:19 | Link #609 | ||
Lost at Sea
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Chihaya does pick up on Taichi's hints: as when he restrains her from going up to his room, and when he holds her hand to guide the fork to his mouth stun her with a sexual apprehension. The animation draws out the moments, focusing on the ballet of his grasp and his release of her hand, the closeness of their faces and bodies. The amazed look on Chihaya's face lets us know she is on the very cusp of sexual discovery. But what will happen to Chihaya should she go over the edge? Would she still be able to play karuta with the same intensity? or would she transfer that energy elsewhere, and become a different person? One perhaps more mature and happier in different ways that Taichi offers, but one for whom the dream of karuta would be impossible? That is why I said Taichi is selfish: his love threatens to impose upon Chihaya a direction away from everything she has clearly expressed her own passion for, for the sake of satisfying his own desire. In so doing, he could conceivably lose in Chihaya just what makes her interesting to him. The "invigorating world of hope and sincerity, the very opposite of cynicism and superficiality" you speak of is none other than the life Chihaya has made in karuta, and what his love threatens to displace. Your analysis brings home to me just how lonely Taichi truly is. His love rather separates him from Chihaya, does it not? It puts him in a place categorically outside of her own naive passion for karuta. So you get in this episode the painful contrast between Chihaya's happiness, overflowing from her manifest sense of connection with others ("I am not alone!"), and Taichi's solitary misery. Quote:
Incidentally, Nishida understands Chihaya's passion for karuta immediately, and in deeper sense than Taichi has so far expressed, so I disagree that is unreasonable to expect Taichi to understand her implicitly. Dawnstorm, I'll try to get to an actual response tomorrow. Must sleep now. |
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2011-12-01, 01:51 | Link #610 | |
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Taichi reminds me a bit of a pro sports player who's "going through the motions". In other words, he's doing what is expected of him given his role on "the team", but it's not his own "love of the sport" (in this case, Karuta) that is moving him forward. This can create divisions between such players and ones who are truly passionate about the sport that they play. I think that this is the key both for Taichi, and for any eventual Chihaya-Taichi romance: Taichi has to grow to love Karuta at a personal level. In other words, he needs to love Katura because he loves Katura, not simply because Chihaya does. He can't simply take her love of the sport, and make it his own. He has to find his own personal reasons for loving the sport, and those reasons have to be independent from Chihaya. I became a pro hockey fan essentially because my father was and is one. But for me to truly enjoy watching pro hockey with my father I had to develop an interest in the sport that goes beyond any simple desire to have a good bond with my father. In other words, my interest in the sport of hockey had to become sincere, and independent of anything else. Taichi is in a similar spot, and I think this is where the upcoming team tournament might prove very important to him. Hopefully, for his sake, and also for Chihaya's, the team tournament will make him love Karuta itself, independent from his feelings for Chihaya. Somewhat ronically, that is what would end his solitary misery, as it would enable him to embrace Chihaya (and the rest of his fellow club members) as a true fellow fan/lover of the sport of Karuta. Due to Chihaya's great love of Karuta, there's only one of two ways that Taichi can enter into a romance with her: 1. He has to essentially steal her away from his true rival, the game of Karuta. This is the possibility that you alluded to, but it would be a sad one given that it would, as you say, destroy much of what makes Chihaya appealing to Taichi to begin wtih. 2. He has to embrace Karuta itself, and by extension embrace Chihaya as a fellow lover of the sport. Karuta would then become not a rival to Taichi, but rather a genuine shared interest he holds with Chihaya. A romantic obstacle would then become a part of a romantic foundation.
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2011-12-01, 02:08 | Link #611 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Nevertheless, he still plays to win. To him, having fun during practice (especially Chihaya's self-centered notion of "fun") is less important than maximizing their chances in this tournament, and possibly the ones after that. |
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2011-12-01, 02:14 | Link #612 | |
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under...
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Or at least, the young Arata was. Looking back at the tournament they participated in as kids - Arata came up with a strategy for it that enabled all three of them to have fun, but in a competitive 'I really want us to win' way, non? This kind of combination is what the newly formed karuta club needs, but rather than one person providing both, it's being provided by two people who compliment each other in these aspects.
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2011-12-01, 04:13 | Link #613 |
You are Reading this!
Join Date: Feb 2011
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The episode alone shows the bonds between friends with the love for the same sport. And i hope the training sessions will eliminate any possibilities of sudden 'power-ups' during crucial times at tournaments in future episodes.
Its great they managed to insert an important emotional moment by the end. Well done, all in all. |
2011-12-01, 06:36 | Link #616 | |
Kana Hanazawa ♥
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 37
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What you said does apply to a lot of other characters, just not Chihaya in my opinion. It's absolutely true in Adams' case, I doubt I would like her much if she wasn't so hot. Incidentally, I'd have an easier time putting up with Park if she was prettier (she has a very shitty and annoying personality - that is the problem).
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2011-12-01, 07:10 | Link #617 |
Guess what time it is?
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Age: 38
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I think all of this is why it's good that Taichi and Chihaya share the leadership role in the club. They balance each other out nicely, both within the club and in general. RRR called Taichi "socially aware" and I think that's probably the best way to put it. In theory, being socially aware is a very good thing, but Taichi's also a good example of the baggage that can come along with it, especially when you're a teenager. Meanwhile, Chihaya is walking the line between "I don't care what people think of me" and "I don't care what people think." The former is a tremendously healthy attitude, the latter is a trap that many of us who fancy ourselves independent thinkers fall into at one point or another.
I'm actually reminded of how self-conscious Taichi was carrying the mats across the campus. In that case, Chihaya's personality was the constructive force that pushed him to accomplish something he didn't want to do, because it drew attention to him. In episode 9, Taichi's ability to read the mood allowed him to guide Chihaya down a better path at the training camp. His social awareness might also have been helpful in, say, remembering a girl's birthday, when even she had seemingly somewhat forgotten about it. I'd like to suggest a theory, if you don't mind: The scene where he stops her from going upstairs is clearly meant to seem to the audience like a play for him to remind Chihaya that he's a man, and she should treat him like one. I'm sure that's true too. But I suspect the more immediate reason he stopped her is because that's where he was hiding the birthday tart. It was pretty clearly planned in advance. The rest of the club was probably in on it for some time too, since Kanade reacted so fast to Taichi's mail. Last edited by ThereminVox; 2011-12-01 at 07:27. Reason: Apparently I can't spell Chihaya |
2011-12-01, 11:04 | Link #618 | |
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under...
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2011-12-01, 12:10 | Link #619 | ||||
Lost at Sea
Join Date: Mar 2010
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But when you say, Quote:
The other thing to mention is that the complementarity does not only extend back from Taichi to Chihaya, as you gently remind me, but also from the other club members to the pair, and even, just to Chihaya. She apologizes, but they like her just the way she is, and declare her passion to be their own inspiration to achieve the same. So her pushiness is not just the expression of her personality, but a response to the demands of the other members of the club. In fact, when Taichi speaks up to moderate Chihaya's pushiness--which is the only instance where he acts independently of her; all the rest of the time she correctly overrides his suggestions--he speaks as a representative of the other club members. So perhaps the social constituent exists really between Chihaya and the club itself? And Taichi is nearly superfluous? As you say regarding better communication, the solution for Chihaya is not to depend on Taichi to meliorate her social weakness, but to improve on those skills for herself. Her goal ought to be to make Taichi, at least in this respect, completely superfluous. Quote:
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#2 I think is already taken by Arata. Taichi's love-story amounts to a tease, fanservice for the josei readership. I'm afraid he is doomed to living perpetually within the tease. Perhaps we will eventually be surprised, but to me he resembles Tamao from Strawberry Panic or Ken Robbins from Kaleido Star. "Oh for a life of Sensation rather than Thoughts!" For all the well-intentioned theories we work out about maturation, complementarity, and all the other modes of social realism that we construct to find a way to place Taichi and Chihaya together, in the final analysis Chihayafuru is a romance, and obeys the logic encapsulated in Keats' words just quoted. And Taichi is all about thoughts and not sensation. So even though he appears to be the figure of romance in the story, paradoxically he is the furthest away from the life of romance the anime offers. His is a desire always wanting and never fulfilled. Karuta, on the other hand, is a life of passion continually fulfilled and intensifying. The expanding social circles Dawnstorm once mentioned are also circles of passion: we see them take in Kana and Tsutomu in this episode, leaving Taichi behind, forlorn. No, for Taichi is another Keats' quote: "Forlorn! The very word is like a bell To toll me back from thee to my sole self!" The close of this episode leaves him there. And so should we. Last edited by hyperborealis; 2011-12-01 at 12:21. |
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2011-12-01, 13:02 | Link #620 | |
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In reading it, I can instantly see why some romance ends in other anime shows were ones that I myself didn't personally favor. You're right, at the end of the day, "Sensation" determines the result of fictional romantic conflicts more than "Thoughts" do. Passion trumps practicality. Perhaps that is why tsunderes (who frequently impart sensations both warm and cruel on the male lead ) so often arise victorious over romantic competitors that appear sweeter and more complimentary towards the male lead. And going by "Sensation" vs. "Thoughts", it does remain true that Arata still holds a greater place of passion in Chihaya's heart and mind than Taichi does. Chihaya's response to reading that simple text message from Arata says everything there.
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