uchiha itachi

[Razz]

Originally Posted by miss rave

With or without the MS he really has no comparison to Yondaime

Erm why not? If your memory is hazy, then let me remind you:

Yondaime wasn't even going to be Yondaime had Orochimaru (who fears Itachi) not had a black heart and experimented on his own villagers.

[Xrayz0r]

Originally Posted by Razz

Erm why not? If your memory is hazy, then let me remind you:

Yondaime wasn't even going to be Yondaime had Orochimaru (who fears Itachi) not had a black heart and experimented on his own villagers.

Still it won't be logical for Sandaime to replace himself for someone who's much weaker, or weaker at all. Therefore certainly at the time Yondaime got elected, he didn't likely differ much from Oro. And that is Oro at the age of 38, while Yondaime was about 15 years younger. Meaning Yondaime surely had lotsa more potential and was way more of a genius than Oro. Plus, Itachi doesn't seem to be that magnificent skill wise, rather his Sharingan doing the trick all the time. Pretty much, Kakashi can hold his own pretty well versus Itachi, while as Jiraiya points out, Oro is on a whole nother level. Kakashi speaks to Oro as if he can only stand a chance if he were to sacrifice his on life, yet he fights Itachi almost equally.
That said it appears quite obvious Itachi wouldnt stand the slightest chance versus Yondaime if he were still alive, if it wasnt for MS perhaps. Since according to him, it's a thing no one but another Uchiha can overcome.

[MobiuS]

If Yondie wasnt the first candidate, he wasnt the best candidate. By judgment of the Hokage, Oro > YF. Unfortunately, Oro wasnt around so they went for the next best thing.

[Razz]

Originally Posted by miss rave

With or without the MS he really has no comparison to Yondaime .



I don't think it was stated but how would they know he'd been drowned if they didn't find a body anyway. Although Shisui was known as Shisui of the mirage or something.

Originally Posted by Xrayz0r

Still it won't be logical for Sandaime to replace himself for someone who's much weaker, or weaker at all. Therefore certainly at the time Yondaime got elected, he didn't likely differ much from Oro. And that is Oro at the age of 38, while Yondaime was about 15 years younger. Meaning Yondaime surely had lotsa more potential and was way more of a genius than Oro. Plus, Itachi doesn't seem to be that magnificent skill wise, rather his Sharingan doing the trick all the time. Pretty much, Kakashi can hold his own pretty well versus Itachi, while as Jiraiya points out, Oro is on a whole nother level. Kakashi speaks to Oro as if he can only stand a chance if he were to sacrifice his on life, yet he fights Itachi almost equally.
.

I stopped reading there. You're telling me its because he has Sharingan that he can use hand-seals unseen by other Sharingan users, have immaculate accuracy with multiple shurikens hitting multiple targets at the same time? You're telling me his Sharingan allows him to kick Kurenai a long distance with minimal effort even after it is blocked?

That said it appears quite obvious Itachi wouldnt stand the slightest chance versus Yondaime if he were still alive, if it wasnt for MS perhaps. Since according to him, it's a thing no one but another Uchiha can overcome

Wow I just couldn't avoid reading this either. This ladies and gentlemen, is what we call "Talking out of your ass". It was never stated that Itachi could not stand the slightest chance versus Yondaime. You should re-read the manga without the illegal substances flowing through your chakra.

[Xrayz0r]

I stopped reading there. You're telling me its because he has Sharingan that he can use hand-seals unseen by other Sharingan users, have immaculate accuracy with multiple shurikens hitting multiple targets at the same time? You're telling me his Sharingan allows him to kick Kurenai a long distance with minimal effort even after it is blocked?

What a weird reply.

Pretty much as people including me were saying, these skills you just mentioned were countered by Kakashi without huge effort. No, I was not saying Sharingan is the cause of all Itachi's regualr ninja skills. Hence, I wasn't even talking about those skills, as mentioned multiple times in my previous post. Pay attention =D

Pretty much, apparently MS is what makes the difference. Itachi says he's the strongest guy because he is at the moment the only guy with MS, therefore undefeatable, according to himself. Apparently he's right since Oro admits it. Yet, Oro thinks he's able to stand a chance versus Itachi once he takes over Sasuke. But wtf why then? Not because his actual skills will change any after tranferring to Sasuke, hell no, nothing will change. More like his new ability as in Sharingan. Sharingan counters Sharingan. No matter how much stronger than Itachi he is (jutsu wise, skill wise), he can't overcome MS. Yet according to himself he can once he takes over Sasuke.

Therefore, MS appears to be unrivalled, not Itachi's battle skills.

You should re-read the manga without the illegal substances flowing through your chakra.

Ha.. ha?

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Xrayz0r

Pretty much as people including me were saying, these skills you just mentioned were countered by Kakashi without huge effort. No, I was not saying Sharingan is the cause of all Itachi's regualr ninja skills. Hence, I wasn't even talking about those skills, as mentioned multiple times in my previous post. Pay attention =D

Yeah I give you that the sharingan is a huge reason of Itachi being that insanely strong, but he was born with his ability, is like saying That Yondaime is nothing without the Hirashin or Rasengan.

[DAmer]

Itachi is strong because he graduated at the top of his Academy class at age 7, had mastered the Sharingan by age 8, became a Chunin at 10 and was previously an ANBU squad leader at the age of 13. He is one of those one in a million ninja genius freaks born with loads of natural talent from the beginning and yes also because he has teh magekyou.

[Suna no tate]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Itachi is a genius any way you look at it. Even without his MS, his skills at least rival Kakashi's who is also a genius himself. But it is likely that his skills surpass that of Kakashi's. Abilites he's demonstrated so far include:

- being able to counter any genjutsu
- powerful taijutsu (one kick sends Kurenai flying several feet, even blocked)
- powerful genjustu (non-Tsukuyomi)
- forming hand seals so fast that they are never seen
- exploding KB technique (so far, a justu that's unique to him)
- being able to counter chidori with one hand
- almost unbelieveable accuracy with shuriken and kunai

I don't know how Itachi would compare to Yondaime in terms of skill. I would think they'd be on a similar level, with Yondaime maybe slightly surpassing Itachi.

Wow. I very much disagree. Personally I don't think any of the Akatsuki members is kage level. Well I take that back, some of the kage's have been shown to be good but not great. None of the Akatsuki members would match up to Yondaime or Sandaime (if here were just a little younger). Here's where I disagree with you concerning itachi

1)he's able to counter kurenai's genjutsu and is probably good at countering genjutsu in general, but can he counter any genjutsu? I don't know. I'd say the same of kakashi. So far he's only fallen prey to the tsukyomi genjutsu, but it lasts only a second in real time (72 hours in your head). Who's to say if Itachi experienced it at the hands of someone else, he'd be able to counter it?
2)his taijutsu is good, but how can we be sure its on the same level as say Gai? Kicking kurenai and sending her flying doesn't mean a thing. I bet lee could do the same, or a 1 tailed naruto. Kurenai if you don't know is rather weak physically (or at least seems that way to me)
3)Fast hand seal speed is nice. But who's to say his jutsus have long hand seals? they could be 3 or 4 seal sequences. Then again they could be 25 seal sequences. And I don't recall someone saying they were so fast they couldn't be seen.
4)actually i thought it was an exploding water clone jutsu. In fact I'm pretty sure of it. I always thought it'd be nice if naruto realized what itachi was doing with water and decided to try it with his kage bunshins. but still its a sweet jutsu. however is it kage level? it doesn't really help the argument or hurt it.
5)he countered sasuke's chidori with one hand. sasukes. I'm sure gai could have done it, or even kakashi. doesn't really prove much. sasuke didn't have his best stuff and he wasn't very good. he'd recently lost in a showdown with naruto (almost anyway).
6)well accuracy is great, but it seems like everyone in the naruto universe is pretty good with shuriken anyway, even those little kids at the academny. Tenten has near perfect accuracy, but she's lousy. I see it like this. whats the difference if I hit 90 out of a hundred and you hit 100 out of a 100. Once you get past a certain point in accuracy, each increase in accuracy becomes less and less beneficial. whats the difference between 500 million dollars and 600 million dollars? once you get past a certain point, each additional million becomes less and less valuable.

Personally speaking, the only 2 jutsus that make Itachi exceptionally fearsome are the 2 related to his MS. However just how powerful are these jutsus?

The tsukyomi jutsu I admit is fearsome. It forces the victim to fight after sustaining 72 hours of severe mental strain, yet only lasts a second in real time. However it doesn't do any physical harm. That is when itachi stabbed kakashi in critical locations during the jutsu, kakashi didn't physically have the wounds. For outside of shikamaru or Naruto, I'm not sure how anyone could plan for it. Yet kakashi did. He tells the itachi clone that he's ready for him (referring to the MS) the second time they meet. So who knows. Anyway, this point is a concession.

The amaterasu jutsu however is probably overrated. Here's why I think so. He uses the jutsu to escape from the summoned frog stomach. He burns a hole in the wall about the size of a double door way, burning through the frog stomach and through the wall. Yet people are so impressed. Yes it was a fire breathing frog, but so what? It burned through the frog stomach, and through the wall, and then that its. Its not like it burned through the house next door, and the house after that, and the house after that. Even more just to do that probably cost more than 30% of his chakra. I say this because when the itachi clone fought kakashi it was limited to 30% chakra. However he didn't use either of his MS techniques. The torture technique might not have been used because it cost too much chakra, but actually I think it was avoided because kakashi said he was ready for it. However he didn't use amaterasu. That fight between kakashi and itachi took place after sakura and chiyo left. If itachi had defeated kakashi, he could have easily scooped up his prize naruto. I say this to illustrate that defeating kakashi was extremely to itachi's advantage. Yet he didn't use amaterasu which if it connected would have ended the match. Why? My theory is that it used more than 30% chakra. So back to my first point, it probably costs Itachi 30% of his chakra just to use amaterasu to burn a hole the size of 2 doorways. Wow! What a small range. Consider the range of other jutsus we know. Gaara can fill entire fields with sand, kimimaro's ultimate technique covered about the same area, and so on. So amaterasu using 30% only covers about 2 doorways. I suppose he coul d use 50% and cover a wider area, but still...

So far, I've shown amaterasu uses a lot of chakra and covers a relatively small area. How about its targeting. How good is the targeting, because if the targeting is 100% accurate, then more than likely it doesn't matter if it covers a small area. Well there we can't be sure. All we saw was a flash of light, and then the 2 akatsuki villains are shown escaping. We don't know if amaterasu is slow or fast. We know it burns through stuff extremely quickly, but how fast it is we don't know. It could move as fast as a shuriken or instantly. If itachi can miss with amaterasu, then all of a sudden its not such a great jutsu. Or if he can be fooled (ie, lots of kagebunshins around-- that'd also be a good plan for the genjutsu, as he has to look at you for jutsu to work) then its not so great. Anyway, I have to go now. Those are just some thoughts. I'll finish this earlier, because I have one or 2 more good points to make.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Suna no Tate

Wow. I very much disagree. Personally I don't think any of the Akatsuki members is kage level. Well I take that back, some of the kage's have been shown to be good but not great. None of the Akatsuki members would match up to Yondaime or Sandaime (if here were just a little younger). Here's where I disagree with you concerning itachi

Well, the topic is whether or not Itachi is considered a genius without his MS not if he is Kage level. All those points I listed are genius level attributes but not necessarily Kage level. As I stated without his MS, Itachi is elite jounin level at the weakest, but most likely he is even stronger than that.

1)he's able to counter kurenai's genjutsu and is probably good at countering genjutsu in general, but can he counter any genjutsu? I don't know. I'd say the same of kakashi. So far he's only fallen prey to the tsukyomi genjutsu, but it lasts only a second in real time (72 hours in your head). Who's to say if Itachi experienced it at the hands of someone else, he'd be able to counter it?

Itachi has stated that no genjustu can penertrate his Sharingan. I imagine the only exception would be an equal or superior Sharingan genjutsu.

2)his taijutsu is good, but how can we be sure its on the same level as say Gai? Kicking kurenai and sending her flying doesn't mean a thing. I bet lee could do the same, or a 1 tailed naruto. Kurenai if you don't know is rather weak physically (or at least seems that way to me)

- Remember that kick was made from standing position with almost no momentum behind it. Nor did it have any chakra embedded in it. It was just an ordinary kick and it sent Kurenai (probably around 120lbs) flying nearly 20ft even after she had braced herself. Gai and Lee could no doubt do this also, but they are taijutsu specialists and train with weighted feet. Itachi has ordinary taijutsu training an no demon chakra to put extra force in his blows.

3)Fast hand seal speed is nice. But who's to say his jutsus have long hand seals? they could be 3 or 4 seal sequences. Then again they could be 25 seal sequences. And I don't recall someone saying they were so fast they couldn't be seen.

When Naruto or Kakashi or anyone else performs a bunshin technique, you see them lift their hands, make the seal and then the Bunshin appears. Itachi's bunshins are just there, almost out of thin air. No warning, no nothing. I haven't seen anyone else do this.

actually i thought it was an exploding water clone jutsu. In fact I'm pretty sure of it. I always thought it'd be nice if naruto realized what itachi was doing with water and decided to try it with his kage bunshins. but still its a sweet jutsu. however is it kage level? it doesn't really help the argument or hurt it.

Water clone or not I have seen no one else perform this technique, not even Kisame and he's a Suiton specialist. I imagine it takes much more effort and control to condense the chakra needed for an exploding bunshin than a regular one.

he countered sasuke's chidori with one hand. sasukes. I'm sure gai could have done it, or even kakashi. doesn't really prove much. sasuke didn't have his best stuff and he wasn't very good. he'd recently lost in a showdown with naruto (almost anyway).

I agree Kakashi and Gai could've also done this, they're elite jounins after all. However, Itachi used minimal effort. He barely even moved. Sasuke was not weakened in any way during that fight, the showdown with Naruto took place after that battle.

well accuracy is great, but it seems like everyone in the naruto universe is pretty good with shuriken anyway, even those little kids at the academny. Tenten has near perfect accuracy, but she's lousy. I see it like this. whats the difference if I hit 90 out of a hundred and you hit 100 out of a 100. Once you get past a certain point in accuracy, each increase in accuracy becomes less and less beneficial. whats the difference between 500 million dollars and 600 million dollars? once you get past a certain point, each additional million becomes less and less valuable.

True. But I think you should give credit where it's due for a guy who can hit a spinning backflip in the air, break out five kunai and while still in the air hits each target dead center, including one in a blind spot behind a boulder. When I see TenTen do that, then I'll say it's no big deal.

Here's where Yondaime has the edge. he can basically teleport, which means the offensive edge will always lie with him. I'm sure he's also mastered the jutsus of some of those guys in the past. I particularly like the black night jutsu of the 2nd hokage. Its not genjutsu. If the 4th could use that in conjunction with his teleportation...wow. even without it, I don't see itachi being able to respond to the a knife in the back. Itachi is good, but kage level? I honestly think he'd have a hard time against the 4th and especially against the 3rd.

Sorry, but you just can't assume Yondaime has mastered the jutsus that aren't basic techniques. Especially ones that have only been seen used by a Hokage. We've also never seen how proficient Yondaime is in ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu. I'm sure he was very good, but there's no evidence that suggests he was better than Itachi. The teleportation technique is powerful, but what if Yondaime were to teleport behind one those exploding bunshin Itachi has shown? There are many factors in a battle, there is no full-proof ninjutsu.

[astayanax]

The amaterasu jutsu however is probably overrated. Here's why I think so. He uses the jutsu to escape from the summoned frog stomach. He burns a hole in the wall about the size of a double door way, burning through the frog stomach and through the wall. Yet people are so impressed. Yes it was a fire breathing frog, but so what? It burned through the frog stomach, and through the wall, and then that its. Its not like it burned through the house next door, and the house after that, and the house after that. Even more just to do that probably cost more than 30% of his chakra. I say this because when the itachi clone fought kakashi it was limited to 30% chakra. However he didn't use either of his MS techniques. The torture technique might not have been used because it cost too much chakra, but actually I think it was avoided because kakashi said he was ready for it. However he didn't use amaterasu. That fight between kakashi and itachi took place after sakura and chiyo left. If itachi had defeated kakashi, he could have easily scooped up his prize naruto. I say this to illustrate that defeating kakashi was extremely to itachi's advantage. Yet he didn't use amaterasu which if it connected would have ended the match. Why? My theory is that it used more than 30% chakra. So back to my first point, it probably costs Itachi 30% of his chakra just to use amaterasu to burn a hole the size of 2 doorways. Wow! What a small range. Consider the range of other jutsus we know. Gaara can fill entire fields with sand, kimimaro's ultimate technique covered about the same area, and so on. So amaterasu using 30% only covers about 2 doorways. I suppose he coul d use 50% and cover a wider area, but still...

So far, I've shown amaterasu uses a lot of chakra and covers a relatively small area. How about its targeting. How good is the targeting, because if the targeting is 100% accurate, then more than likely it doesn't matter if it covers a small area. Well there we can't be sure. All we saw was a flash of light, and then the 2 akatsuki villains are shown escaping. We don't know if amaterasu is slow or fast. We know it burns through stuff extremely quickly, but how fast it is we don't know. It could move as fast as a shuriken or instantly. If itachi can miss with amaterasu, then all of a sudden its not such a great jutsu. Or if he can be fooled (ie, lots of kagebunshins around-- that'd also be a good plan for the genjutsu, as he has to look at you for jutsu to work) then its not so great. Anyway, I have to go now. Those are just some thoughts. I'll finish this earlier, because I have one or 2 more good points to make.

Amaterasu is one of the most powerful jutsus, if not the most powerful jutsu, shown in the entire series. Kishimoto described it as instant death to anyone it touches as anything in the radious of the eyes is burnt into ashes instantly.

We know Amaterasu is instant as described in the books.

The targetting is probably difficult but this is Itachi we are talking about; the person with the best accuracy in the entire series (other people can be as good as him, but never better than him).

It only did a small area of damage because Itachi wanted it to be a small area of damage. Since it destroys what is in Itachi's eyesight, he purposively went close enough to the object to make sure that the wall is destroyed.

Granted, the jutsu has a ton of weaknesses but as far as one on one go; practically nothing can get around that. All Itachi has to do is look at you and that is it.

In short, it isn't overrated but actually very underrated.

[Zu Ra]

Itachi by far the strongest chracter in Naruto . Yondi was supposed to be a genius but nothing much is known about him so it would be wrong to speculate .

And using his graduation age as coefficient for being the strongest is not a valid point . That makes Itachi a child prodigy nothing more nothing less . Itachi has this thing which no one posses ' lust for power ' , Itachi was willing to sacrfice his own family and best freind in order to become stronger, to gain power that makes him stand out .

Oro also has that , but Oro does not have a distuinguished blood-line . So purely in terms of Genius you call Oro a genius . Coz Itachi was born with a gift ( ie Sharingam ) .

But when it comes to the strongest Shinobi it has to be hands down Itachi . We dont know how Itachi will fair against Jiraiya or Tsunade so its to early to say anything .

[Rurik]

Given Im already retired when it comes to Debates regarding Itachi’s power, I will let the New Generation of poster have some fun

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Water clone or not I have seen no one else perform this technique, not even Kisame and he's a Suiton specialist. I imagine it takes much more effort and control to condense the chakra needed for an exploding bunshin than a regular one.

I Just quoted this part to Clear the confussion of both you and Suan no Tate, Itachi Clone that exploded was a Kage Bushin. (it was said like 2 times in that chapter.)

And The exploding part of the Kage Bushin seems to be a tottaly different Jutsu, and it’s A-Ranked, its name in Japanese is “Bunshin Daibakuha”

Originally Posted by astayanax

Amaterasu is one of the most powerful jutsus, if not the most powerful jutsu, shown in the entire series. Kishimoto described it as instant death to anyone it touches as anything in the radious of the eyes is burnt into ashes instantly.

We know Amaterasu is instant as described in the books.

Spoiler:

After seen all the insane stuff the new Akatsuki could do, plus Kakashis MS Jutsu, I believe 100% what the Databook say about Amateratsu and what You say about Itachi accuracy and this Jutsu.

Just a friendly reminder to all, use spoiler tags..Have fun!!!!!!!!

[Suna no tate]

I will conceed that amaterasu burns through stuff instantly, but how fast it travels is questionable, and even if it travels near instantly, maybe he can still miss. Forgive the X-Men allusion, but cyclops shoots laser beams at the speed of light, and he seems to miss an awful lot. You could say he restricted himself to a small area, but even then that hurts the case as to the usefulness of the technique. If such a small area requires so much chakra (seeing as Itachi was really tuckered), that would worsen its usefulness. then you're really saying, a limited amaterasu really tired him. How about a normal amaterasu? Well then, if everything is consistent, a normal amaterasu that obliterates everything in the field of vision, would kill him because it costs so much chakra. Its better to assume, that that distance and that damage area is the normal amount. And also keep in mind that it burned through just the frog stomach, and the wall, and that was it. It didn't like burn through the next 4 houses or anything. Can it burn through 3 bishamon gates? Can it burn through naruto's chakra shield in a high tailed form? Who knows...Its interesting though that if these flames are so hot, how come there were residual flames that didn't keep on burning through stuff? (Its also interesting to note that , in the anime at the end of the tunnel that Itachi and kisame escaped from, there was a huge window that covered most of the end of that tunnel. What?! A window?! That completely blew my mind!)

If that was a kage bunshin, then the anime was wrong, because I so distinctly remember the bunshin forming from water. But who knows, I'll take a look tonight and see. I do believe you though rurik when you say what the manga says.

Oh about the hand seal speed, its been thought that perhaps the reason for the large akatsuki cloaks is that it hides hand seal motions, making the user seem faster at techniques than normal. Then it'd have a purpose besides just being cool looking (because I definitely want one). Still it could be possible that we're just not shown the hand seal. After all, when kakashi was fighting zabuza, nobody saw him copy zabuza's hand seals and form a clone either. but I will concede that fast hand seals itachi probably has and that makes him very cool. I do have one question though and I think its a valid one. It does seem that itachi mastered an exploding shadow clone jutsu. It was a shadow clone in the mange. However, how can he afford to do that considering our understanding of how shadow clone jutsu works? He only made like 1 or 2 clones and then blew them up. Each clone possesses an equal amount of chakra... it doesn't make sense...lets say he makes 2 clones, then each would have 33% of total chakra, and then he just blows them up? that'd make the jutsu more costly than amaterasu. either our understanding is wrong, or something else is going on. anyway, I still have to go and wil edit and add my true discussion later.

I have to go again and don't have time for my real discussion. So later. I'll edit this later.

(1st edit. The water bunshin I remember was kakashis. Kakashi as he was diving away said something watch out for the exploding kage bunshin. So yeah, if you trust kakashi's judgement in that situation, itachi exploded a kagebunshin)

[0TaKu0]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

Wow. I very much disagree. Personally I don't think any of the Akatsuki members is kage level. Well I take that back, some of the kage's have been shown to be good but not great. None of the Akatsuki members would match up to Yondaime or Sandaime (if here were just a little younger). Here's where I disagree with you concerning itachi

Ok, there’s something’s that I agree with in this post and other's I'm against and with Sabaku Kyu. This is one of the things I agree with how ever, firstly yes there are members in Akatsuki that are Hogake level but saying they are equal to Sandaime or Yondaime is way too farfetched. I don’t care who you are Yondaime's specialty was sealing jutsu's and because of this combined with his genius intelligence he was able to create jutsu's such as body flicker. Each Akatsuki member's are special in their own way and have things about them that others do not, but putting them on par with the genius of Yondaime and Sandaime is just going too far. But like Sabaku stated the topic is "whether or not Itachi is considered a genius without his MS not if he is Kage level." So I'm going to leave this alone.

1)he's able to counter kurenai's genjutsu and is probably good at countering genjutsu in general, but can he counter any genjutsu? I don't know. I'd say the same of kakashi. So far he's only fallen prey to the tsukyomi genjutsu, but it lasts only a second in real time (72 hours in your head). Who's to say if Itachi experienced it at the hands of someone else, he'd be able to counter it?

Going to have to go with Sabaku Kyu on this one, Itachi did state "that no genjustu can penetrate his Sharingan", and just like Sabaku I'm sure the only genjutsu that can affect Itach is a Mangekyo Sharingan/Tsukuyom of a higher level. This is proven, just look back to the first time Itach had an encounter with Kakashi. Kakashi closes his normal eye and opens his Sharingan thinking he might be able to counter Itachi's Mangekyo Sharingan, Itachi tells Kakashi right away that he might have been able to if he was of the Uchiha bloodline and also had the same level of Mangekyo Sharingan. So the visa versa of this would be some one of Uchiha bloodline with a higher level of Mangekyo Sharingan then Itachi can own Itach (future Sasuke, hopefully).

2)his taijutsu is good, but how can we be sure its on the same level as say Gai? Kicking kurenai and sending her flying doesn't mean a thing. I bet lee could do the same, or a 1 tailed naruto. Kurenai if you don't know is rather weak physically (or at least seems that way to me)

I'm in half agreement with you on this one, Itachi's Taijutsu is good that’s all it is. Its not Gai's level or Lee's level, that’s why Itachi's partner is Kisame insane strength, insane chakra. We have already seen that each pair of Akatsuki is perfect for each other in one way or another, and each of their ability's are always being used to the fullest by their genius leader (but lets not forget Gai and Lee are taijutsu specialist).

What I'm agreeing with is the fact that Kurenai IS indeed physically weak. Her specialty is genjutsu that is what she fights with, she came to the village when she was little with a natural talent for genjutsu so she excelled and trained in that. Hence, her taijutsu is average or just "enough" is more what I'm saying.

To be honest with you although Itachi doesn’t seem like the hand to hand combat type there is two obvious reason behind this. One is because so far there is no one who can rival his Mangekyo Sharingan. When some one that can comes along, we are going to see some real fireworks then we will truly know how good Itachi's taijutsu is.

The other one is, Kisame holds him back, by that I mean Kisame is the one who gets down and dirty and Itachi supports. When Kisame has issues or there's too many then Itachi gets his hand dirty. In other words Itachi just does not like getting his hand dirty, he probably believes his Mangekyo Sharingan is good enough to take care of anything.

3)Fast hand seal speed is nice. But who's to say his jutsus have long hand seals? they could be 3 or 4 seal sequences. Then again they could be 25 seal sequences. And I don't recall someone saying they were so fast they couldn't be seen.

Actually some one did say his hand seals were so fast they could not be seen, not in those exact words but the first time Kakashi and Itachi fight, Kakashi> "His jutsu is too fast... my eyes cant even catch up with him". This alone should tell you how fast his hand seals are that even Kakashi's SHARINGAN could not see his jutsu. The Sharingan only work's if its able to see, unlike Zabuza Itachi didn’t need any mist to hide his hand seals, because he does them so damn fast that even Sharingan couldn’t pick it up. It only makes sense for Itachi to learn how to counter Sharingan because he IS a Sharingan user, I highly doubt he wants other people to copy his Jutsu. While Kakashi did say "His Jutsu is too fast" it could also be interpreted as hand seals because in order to do a jutsu you need hand seals first and that’s one of the things the Sharingan needs to see in order to copy a jutsu.

4)actually i thought it was an exploding water clone jutsu. In fact I'm pretty sure of it. I always thought it'd be nice if naruto realized what itachi was doing with water and decided to try it with his kage bunshins. but still its a sweet jutsu. however is it kage level? it doesn't really help the argument or hurt it.

I half agree with you on this one, its not exploding Kage Bunshin's but water clone's this is indeed amazing, the crazy thing about this is only Water clones create such an impact, can you imagine how big of an impact a kage bunshin which is a real body in almost every way possible would do? By the way only Naruto can afford to waste Kage Bunshins like that, that’s why Itach and NEARLY every other Ninja who makes clones stays away from Kage Bunshins and use some sort of Medium like Water, Wood, Ink to make their clones.

Any way your right this is no where near kage level, BUT once again the topic is if Itachi is a genius without the Mangekyo Sharingan or not, it has really nothing to do with Kage level Jutsu's or if he is Kage level. But NO DOUBT this Jutsu is genius level, so this definitely favor's Itachi, in term's of is he a genius without the Mangekyo Shringan.

5)he countered sasuke's chidori with one hand. sasukes. I'm sure gai could have done it, or even kakashi. doesn't really prove much. sasuke didn't have his best stuff and he wasn't very good. he'd recently lost in a showdown with naruto (almost anyway).

Agreeing with you on this one 100%, Sasuke was a piece of shit back then. While Kakashi's was called Lightning Edge, Sasuke's was called Chidori, Sasuke's was nothing more then a straight Jab. The only thing around his hand was Lighting Manipulated Chakra, THE REST was up to HIM. In other words all Itachi did was grab his hand, he could have also done the following. Move out the way, smack his hand away, kick his chest, duck and trip him, the possibility’s are endless. Chidori does not shoot out and attack its opponent, you have to land it just like naruto landing the Rasengan. Sasuke was not fast enough, to Itachi Sasuke was probably moving at slow motion, he was just a kid back then. So Sabaku Kyu Itachi stopping Sasuke's Chidori does not mean shit except "Itachi caught a moving knife" "Itachi dodged a moving Knife" that’s all it comes down to.

6)well accuracy is great, but it seems like everyone in the naruto universe is pretty good with shuriken anyway, even those little kids at the academny. Tenten has near perfect accuracy, but she's lousy. I see it like this. whats the difference if I hit 90 out of a hundred and you hit 100 out of a 100. Once you get past a certain point in accuracy, each increase in accuracy becomes less and less beneficial. whats the difference between 500 million dollars and 600 million dollars? once you get past a certain point, each additional million becomes less and less valuable.

Agreeing with you on this one 100%. Sabaku Kyu Itachi's accuracy was great, amazing, ONLY because of two reasons. The time frame, and because it was through Baby Sasuke's eyes. At that time itachi was very young and for some one that young to have accuracy like that was considered amazing that is all. Also baby Sauske made it seem like it was amazing, remember that chapter was only from baby Sasuke's eyes and no one else's. The time frame that is right now, in term's of JUST Kunai and Shuriken throwing almost any ninja is as good in term's of accuracy because this is one of the most basic skills you MUST have. Basically I'm saying back then it was a big deal because no one Itachi's age had that sort of accuracy, right now its just normal to have accuracy like that.

Personally speaking, the only 2 jutsus that make Itachi exceptionally fearsome are the 2 related to his MS. However just how powerful are these jutsus?

The tsukyomi jutsu I admit is fearsome. It forces the victim to fight after sustaining 72 hours of severe mental strain, yet only lasts a second in real time. However it doesn't do any physical harm. That is when itachi stabbed kakashi in critical locations during the jutsu, kakashi didn't physically have the wounds. For outside of shikamaru or Naruto, I'm not sure how anyone could plan for it. Yet kakashi did. He tells the itachi clone that he's ready for him (referring to the MS) the second time they meet. So who knows. Anyway, this point is a concession.

I'm 50-50 on this, the Tsukuyomi might be more fearsom them most people realize, lets not forget Kakashi is a genius, he has the sharingan, and he knew right away that it was genjutsu at least that’s what he kept telling him self.

What I’m saying is, I believe some one with a average / weak mind I bet you the Tsukuyomi would do physical harm to them, in the way that their minds think what they are seeing is really what’s happening to them which causes the body to do harm to it self because the eye's see, the mind believes.

The amaterasu jutsu however is probably overrated. Here's why I think so. He uses the jutsu to escape from the summoned frog stomach. He burns a hole in the wall about the size of a double door way, burning through the frog stomach and through the wall. Yet people are so impressed. Yes it was a fire breathing frog, but so what? It burned through the frog stomach, and through the wall, and then that its. Its not like it burned through the house next door, and the house after that, and the house after that. Even more just to do that probably cost more than 30% of his chakra. I say this because when the itachi clone fought kakashi it was limited to 30% chakra. However he didn't use either of his MS techniques. The torture technique might not have been used because it cost too much chakra, but actually I think it was avoided because kakashi said he was ready for it. However he didn't use amaterasu. That fight between kakashi and itachi took place after sakura and chiyo left. If itachi had defeated kakashi, he could have easily scooped up his prize naruto. I say this to illustrate that defeating kakashi was extremely to itachi's advantage. Yet he didn't use amaterasu which if it connected would have ended the match. Why? My theory is that it used more than 30% chakra. So back to my first point, it probably costs Itachi 30% of his chakra just to use amaterasu to burn a hole the size of 2 doorways. Wow! What a small range. Consider the range of other jutsus we know. Gaara can fill entire fields with sand, kimimaro's ultimate technique covered about the same area, and so on. So amaterasu using 30% only covers about 2 doorways. I suppose he coul d use 50% and cover a wider area, but still...

So far, I've shown amaterasu uses a lot of chakra and covers a relatively small area. How about its targeting. How good is the targeting, because if the targeting is 100% accurate, then more than likely it doesn't matter if it covers a small area. Well there we can't be sure. All we saw was a flash of light, and then the 2 akatsuki villains are shown escaping. We don't know if amaterasu is slow or fast. We know it burns through stuff extremely quickly, but how fast it is we don't know. It could move as fast as a shuriken or instantly. If itachi can miss with amaterasu, then all of a sudden its not such a great jutsu. Or if he can be fooled (ie, lots of kagebunshins around-- that'd also be a good plan for the genjutsu, as he has to look at you for jutsu to work) then its not so great. Anyway, I have to go now. Those are just some thoughts. I'll finish this earlier, because I have one or 2 more good points to make.

I disagree 100%, do you really know what the Amaterasu is?

Before I get to that I want to explain one thing, Amaterasu is not the only thing that takes 30% or more of Itachi's chakra, the Tsukuyomi does as well, that’s why he couldn’t use the Tsukuyomi during the 2nd fight with Kakashi. He even clearly says it "Its more like I CANT use it" so he starts using his finger Jutsu. So don’t diss on the Amaterasu because it consumes mass Chakra, if I had to guess I would say the Amaterasu uses 30% and so does the Tsukuyomi. The first time Itachi was shown he used the Tsukuyomi twice, and the Amaterasu once 90% of his chakra was gone leaving him with only 10%, hence him being in a state where he must retreat and rest.

Now then, Amaterasu named after the Shinto sun goddess, this legendary jutsu is unique to the Uchiha clan. The jet-black flames are said to be as hot as the sun, and will burn for seven days and seven nights. Since the Mangekyo Sharingan is necessary to activate this jutsu, not many have learned it.

Think about this for a moment, short range or long range IF you get hit with this jutsu, hell you wouldn’t even have to get hit, even if a bit of your cloths is caught by the Amaterasu, your done for. Burns for seven days and seven nights, Jiraiya had to SEAL the flames to get rid of it, in other words you can roll all you want it wont go out, you can throw water on it nothing will happen, you cant pat it down you will only be spreading the flame to the hand you patted with, the only thing you can do is seal it.

Even if you were to try that your screwed by the time your ready. Don’t take the Amaterasu lightly we haven’t seen it in real action yet just got a taste of it. We have not even seen how it look's, for all you know it could be a flame ball that swallows a good amount of the radius around itachi body making it impossible for any one near him to escape, because it IS indeed short range, so most like it its one of those large sphere around the body type jutsu. A flame that’s as hot as the sun and burns for 7 days and 7 nights that can not be put out in any way other then a sealing jutsu, if that’s not impressive I don’t know what is.

As far as it goes, the answer is Itachi is a genius without the Mangekyo Sharingan, YES he has the capacity and intelligence to become hokage ONE DAY. Just like Naruto, or Sasuke, but neither of them are Hokage level (if your talking about Yondaime or Sandaime that is.)

None the less, we shouldn’t even be discussing Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi because this is suppose to be a topic that involves Itachi's genius without the Mangekyo Sharingan, and the Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi is impossible without it.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by 0TaKu0

Agreeing with you on this one 100%, Sasuke was a piece of shit back then. While Kakashi's was called Lightning Edge, Sasuke's was called Chidori, Sasuke's was nothing more then a straight Jab. The only thing around his hand was Lighting Manipulated Chakra, THE REST was up to HIM. In other words all Itachi did was grab his hand, he could have also done the following. Move out the way, smack his hand away, kick his chest, duck and trip him, the possibility’s are endless. Chidori does not shoot out and attack its opponent, you have to land it just like naruto landing the Rasengan. Sasuke was not fast enough, to Itachi Sasuke was probably moving at slow motion, he was just a kid back then. So Sabaku Kyu Itachi stopping Sasuke's Chidori does not mean shit except "Itachi caught a moving knife" "Itachi dodged a moving Knife" that’s all it comes down to.

It's not that simple. The inherent weakness of the chidori is that it leaves the user vulnerable to the counterattacks you stated. That's why Yondaime initially told Kakashi not use it. Couldn't any idiot just move out the way of a straight-moving attack and land one of his own? That's where the Sharingan comes in. The Sharingan allows the user to move at break-neck speed and still see any oncoming counterattacks. So if an opponent attempts to duck, dodge, or attack, a Sharingan user can re-adjust. With his superior Sharingan and reflexes Itachi was not just able avoid the attack but also launch his own counter by grabbing Sasuke's wrist. Not only would he have to have insanely fast reflexes to grab Sasuke's wrist without his activated Sharingan seeing it coming, he also had to let the chidori come within an inch of piercing his chest. So even though it was just a genin wielding the attack, the counter was extremely skilled.

Agreeing with you on this one 100%. Sabaku Kyu Itachi's accuracy was great, amazing, ONLY because of two reasons. The time frame, and because it was through Baby Sasuke's eyes. At that time itachi was very young and for some one that young to have accuracy like that was considered amazing that is all. Also baby Sauske made it seem like it was amazing, remember that chapter was only from baby Sasuke's eyes and no one else's.

Are you saying that Itachi didn't actually do the things shown in that flashback ? Or that they were exaggerated? Just because Sasuke was young doesn't mean that his memories are inaccurate. Especially when it comes to his brother. Itachi was also an ANBU captain at the time, those weren't basic academy shuriken throwing techniques. Of course, no one will ever die from something as lame as a kunai or shuriken in this series but these weapons are used for more than just strictly throwing at opponents. Being able to throw multiple weapons from any angle offers an advantage in battle and not everyone can do it. Being able to have perfect accuracy when in motion and upside down in mid-air demonstrates an entirely different level than having perfect accuracy on the ground standing.

Originally Posted by Lollerpants

And.. I wouldn't say Itachi's taijutsu is even below Lee's level... that seems way too much of an understatement. I'm pretty sure his taijutsu is rather competent and just because he doesn't seem to specialize in it does not mean he's not good at it.

Plus I think people are forgetting that Sharingan also plays a huge advantage in taijutsu.

I agree. Itachi might have trouble with Gai's level of taijutsu, but I think he could easily keep up with Lee, at least until he opened the 4th gate.

[0TaKu0]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

It's not that simple. The inherent weakness of the chidori is that it leaves the user vulnerable to the counterattacks you stated. That's why Yondaime initially told Kakashi not use it. Couldn't any idiot just move out the way of a straight-moving attack and land one of his own? That's where the Sharingan comes in. The Sharingan allows the user to move at break-neck speed and still see any oncoming counterattacks. So if an opponent attempts to duck, dodge, or attack, a Sharingan user can re-adjust. With his superior Sharingan and reflexes Itachi was not just able avoid the attack but also launch his own counter by grabbing Sasuke's wrist. Not only would he have to have insanely fast reflexes to grab Sasuke's wrist without his activated Sharingan seeing it coming, he also had to let the chidori come within an inch of piercing his chest. So even though it was just a genin wielding the attack, the counter was extremely skilled.

The counter was not extremely skilled, because just like you said, "The Sharingan allows the user to move at break-neck speed and still see any oncoming counterattacks". All this means is, Itachi's Sharingan was on a higher level then Sasuke's still doesn’t say anything about anything because any one with a higher level Sharingan then Sasuke's would be able to stop his Chidori. Also if that's the case, why did Kakashi have to hold down Zabuza with his dog's to connect Lightning Edge? Kakashi has the Sharingan too, yet he needed to hold Zabuza down. Face it, unless you got body flicker, or 4th gate speed Chidori is kind of Bleh just like the Rasengan (why else would kakashi train sasuke in Lee's Taijutsu, it was said to increase Sasuke's speed). Also I would like to see Itachi try that shit with Kakashi then I'll believe it was a extremely skilled counter.

Are you saying that Itachi didn't actually do the things shown in that flashback ? Or that they were exaggerated? Just because Sasuke was young doesn't mean that his memories are inaccurate. Especially when it comes to his brother. Itachi was also an ANBU captain at the time, those weren't basic academy shuriken throwing techniques. Of course, no one will ever die from something as lame as a kunai or shuriken in this series but these weapons are used for more than just strictly throwing at opponents. Being able to throw multiple weapons from any angle offers an advantage in battle and not everyone can do it. Being able to have perfect accuracy when in motion and upside down in mid-air demonstrates an entirely different level than having perfect accuracy on the ground standing.

Nope that’s not what I'm saying at all, Ok first, lets not forget that at this time the Uchiha clan was still around and couple, if not allot of them had the "Sharingan" lets also not forget that his Kunai and Shuriken throwing techniques were due to the Sharingan, because he could "See" is the best way to put it. What I meant by they were through Sasuke's eyes is that, Sauske was always watching his brother, and no one else. We don’t know that there was not any other Uchiha that could not use the Sharingan in terms of combining it with throwing skills.

That’s besides the point really, although I made that one of the reasons, my most important reason was the time frame, the fact that Itachi could combine his Sharingan with his throwing techniques was a big deal because of his age. I'm sure there was other Uchiha who could throw like him but they were probably jounin's or at least 10-15 years older then him.

[matsuno]

If you take it for what weve been told about other Characters and jounin in general.

Jounin need to ge able to open gates to be able to even qualify, signifying a high degree of Taijitsu was learned (without the body conditioning, the body would not be able to handle the strait of opening any gates).

Jounin need to be able to manipulate two kinds of elemental Chakra, enfasising a huge understanding of ninjitsu skills in and of itself.

And to add to this, of the elite Jounin that we know of, most were gifted from an overly early age (Kakashi graduated from the academy at 5 and was a chunin by 6, and was a jounin by 13. Guy too graduated at only 7, and Chunin by 11 [refer to more of the elite jounin in the databook, youd be surprised how common it seems that they were far ahead of Naruto's generation]).

With all this, we can say that disregarding his Sharingan, Itachi would almost surely be in the same league as them in skills. The sharingan just gives him enough of an added ability to be able to approach multiple ennemies of such high standing, knowing he could hold his own vs them (not whether he could kill them all).

[Suna no tate]

Ok. To clarify a few things, I will attempt. I just watched the episode where Itachi/Kisame meets Kakashi/Kurenai/Asuma. How fun. First off, it was most likely a kagebunshin that itachi exploded, though its possible Kakashi made a mistake. After all, he already commented about having trouble with itachi's speed. However, I will also say that the episode shows how the Akatsuki members use their cloaks to their advantage, as the jutsu was performed with hands purposely hidden. Itachi performed it with his hands inside the cloak, then pulled out shurikens as a distraction. Very nice. Very nice indeed. We already know they Sharingan can't penetrate cloth so its all up in the air. But as to itachi's skill...very good and his speed is probably amplified by the use of distractions. However no reference was made to his hand speed, just to the speed at which he uses jutsus (one after the other after the other and such).

Now lets discuss Gai. Gai shows up and the first thing Itachi says is "Don't underestimate him" and he repeats it later in the second major arc. Itachi seems to seriously respect Maito Gai. It also seems Gai knows 2 methods for fighting sharingan methods, aside from the first which is to look at their feet. I'm very curious as to the other method. I bet its the blindfold over the eyes method combined with some sort of drunken fist! haha! Your chakra flow would be all over the place! But I was immediately curious as to what it was. Still Itachi seems to really respect Gai and Gai himself said he's battled and trained against Sharingan users. So Gai is even stronger than I gave him credit for since he's smarter than I thought (he was my top jounin of those we've seen in konoha. Now the distance between him and kakashi has grown just a bit. A gai that breaks 7 gates.... watch out)

Thirdly lets discuss the placement of itachi and Jiraiya. It seems the both underestimate each other so its really funny. Here are itachi's and kisame's words before they go to fight Jiraiya:

K: he's an opponent that you may be able to face but I'm not sure about myself. He's of a different degree.
I: Yeah. If we fight him, we put both our lives at risk. Where we fight him doesn't matter. Even if there were more of our kind... nothing would make a difference.
K:Him being one of the legendary three...He'll be a hard opponent even for one of Konoha's Uchiha clan and one of the Mist's Seven Angles of Shinobi Katana
I: Yeah... however...everyone has a weakness, no matter how strong they first appear to be

Thats really funny, because after the fight, in a manga translation, Jiraiya seemed really afraid of them and was glad he was just able to scare them off. The anime gives a completely different impression. But its still funny. What really threw me for a loop was what Itachi meant whenhe said "even if there were more of our kind". What kind? Uchiha? S-Rank Ninja? More akatsuki members? Who knows. But the point is they seemed rather intimidated of this one member of the legendary three, yet everyone for some reason feels Orochimaru is absolutely terrified of itachi. This point I will pick up in little later.

About catching sasuke's chidori, that really isn't that big of an accomplishment. Sasuke was rather deranged at the time and he hadn't mastered the entire sharingan either. After all the sharingan's weakness is taijutsu and all Itachi did was basically one quick motion. Personally speaking, it wasn't that great of an accomplishment and yes it makes Itachi look good, but not super good.

My point about the accuracy was that after a certain point, increases in accuracy don't matter as much. If itachi throws 8 kunai at you, all 8 will hit. If Naruto throws 8 kunai at you, 6 may hit. Big difference.

Back to the orochimaru statement. I think it is clear to everyone that orochimaru is a very narrow minded individual, that is once he sets his mind on something, everything else be damned. It doesn't matter to him how many babies are killed as long as the research is completed, or it doesn't matter how many ninja died as long as sasuke is delivered. From my record, orochimaru wanted itachi as his body host. The host apparently doesn't have to be willing, but must be in good physical condition. After all kimimaro got sick and all of sudden was a bad choice, despite the fact that Orochimaru has obvious healing and rejuvenation jutsus. I don't know if there are any direct statements of Orochimaru that indicate some sort of fear, but I do know he left because of itachi's growing power (Itachi probably found out about it). To me this means that, if itachi was an unwilling host, it would be extremely difficult for Orochimaru to gain his body, at least without damaging it. He may be able to fight itachi, but not with the ease needed to keep the body unharmed. He may have to kill itachi, or use techniques that would really rip him up and then itachi's body would be unuseable. After all, Itachi and Kisame already said that the legendary three are respectable opponents, and orochimaru is a legendary three member. Hehe... but then if there's one statement of Orochimaru that says he outright fears itachi, then this argument loses a lot of credibility. I would like to say though that Orochimaru wants konoha to rid some of the Akatsuki members for him and I think when he says that he's referring to the leader and the higher and more troublesom members of akatsuki like that zetsu. I doubt he's afraid of kisame (though in my mind Kisame is pretty strong, and in the right field, can tangle with anyone) or kukuzu or that hidan, but probably was of that Sasori who really wanted to kill him.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by 0TaKu0

The counter was not extremely skilled, because just like you said, "The Sharingan allows the user to move at break-neck speed and still see any oncoming counterattacks". All this means is, Itachi's Sharingan was on a higher level then Sasuke's still doesn’t say anything about anything because any one with a higher level Sharingan then Sasuke's would be able to stop his Chidori. Also if that's the case, why did Kakashi have to hold down Zabuza with his dog's to connect Lightning Edge? Kakashi has the Sharingan too, yet he needed to hold Zabuza down. Face it, unless you got body flicker, or 4th gate speed Chidori is kind of Bleh just like the Rasengan (why else would kakashi train sasuke in Lee's Taijutsu, it was said to increase Sasuke's speed). Also I would like to see Itachi try that shit with Kakashi then I'll believe it was a extremely skilled counter.

Being able to see the attack means nothing if you don't have the reflexes to back it up. Not all Uchihas have it. That's why Sasuke got his ass whipped by Lee the first time they met even though he could see every one of Lee's attacks coming with the Sharingan. Itachi only had a narrow window to perform a counter move like that. First, Sasuke had to be so close that his own Sharingan couldn't react in time to Itachi's movement. Then, Itachi had to be fast enough to reach up and grasp the wrist, we're probably talking about tenths of a second to react to a jutsu which if it had made contact, would've killed him. Kakashi used those dogs to hold down Zabuza so he wouldn't try to dodge or counterattack. But I'll tell you, if Zabuza would've tried to counter the same way Itachi did, he'd have died on the spot. Furthermore, knowing Itachi's ability, it's unlikely that Kakashi would even bother trying to use a direct chidori on him. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that chidori isn't easy to evade, I'm saying that the way Itachi avoided it is not an easy manuevuer.

Nope that’s not what I'm saying at all, Ok first, lets not forget that at this time the Uchiha clan was still around and couple, if not allot of them had the "Sharingan" lets also not forget that his Kunai and Shuriken throwing techniques were due to the Sharingan, because he could "See" is the best way to put it. What I meant by they were through Sasuke's eyes is that, Sauske was always watching his brother, and no one else. We don’t know that there was not any other Uchiha that could not use the Sharingan in terms of combining it with throwing skills.

That’s besides the point really, although I made that one of the reasons, my most important reason was the time frame, the fact that Itachi could combine his Sharingan with his throwing techniques was a big deal because of his age. I'm sure there was other Uchiha who could throw like him but they were probably jounin's or at least 10-15 years older then him.

Sasuke stated that Itachi was better at shruiken throwing then their father, who was head of Konoha's police force. I'm not sure how strong and skilled the Uchiha clan member's were but I'm confident Itachi's and Sasuke's father was near the top. Possibly only Itachi and Shusui surpassed him.

[0TaKu0]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I agree. Itachi might have trouble with Gai's level of taijutsu, but I think he could easily keep up with Lee, at least until he opened the 4th gate.

No way Itachi could keep up with Lee, the Renge and Ura Renge is the result of extreme Taijutsu skill's heh, if Itachi could keep up with Lee that means Itachi could do these movies, oh but wait, Itachi cant even open any gates which is a requirement just for renge alone, which means he cant. Being able to open gates means your degree of taijutsu is seriously high, lee can open 5 which means beyond that, Itachi could keep up with Lee until he takes off the weights, then its over. Just like you said "Being able to see the attack means nothing if you don't have the reflexes to back it up". Itachi cant keep up with Lee, NO way in hell after the 3 year time skip, who knows how Lee is now he might be at Gai's level, you know how hard working Lee is, stop underestimating him. Itachi's Taijutsu is nice, but just like he "fears" Gai, he will fear Lee.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Being able to see the attack means nothing if you don't have the reflexes to back it up. Not all Uchihas have it. That's why Sasuke got his ass whipped by Lee the first time they met even though he could see every one of Lee's attacks coming with the Sharingan. Itachi only had a narrow window to perform a counter move like that. First, Sasuke had to be so close that his own Sharingan couldn't react in time to Itachi's movement. Then, Itachi had to be fast enough to reach up and grasp the wrist, we're probably talking about tenths of a second to react to a jutsu which if it had made contact, would've killed him.

Come on Sasuke's Sharingan was not even fully developed at that time, It's like I said when it comes down to it, all that meant was Itachi's Sharingan was at a higher level then Sasuke's because if Sasuke could counter Itachi that would mean Sasuke's Sharingan was at a higher level. Obviously Itachi had the speed to back it up and caught Sasuke's hand. But dude, I did say sasuke was slow as hell I mean who are you comparing here? The old BEFORE time skip Sasuke to the genius Itachi who killed his own clan? Seriously, you don’t even have to say it, you just know he's faster, stronger, smarter, then Sasuke during that time. Like I said, I would like to see Itachi try that shit on Kakashi or Gai at that time. Then I'll accept that it was a Skilled Counter.

By the way, remember how kakashi stoped the Chidori and Rasengan? grabbed both hands.... LMAO like it was a cake walk, wtf was that? I mean even though it was not aimed at him, he basically grabbed a throwing knife, Itachi did the same shit. That proves how weak ass Sasuke was back then, so being able to stop his chidori by grabbing his hand doesn’t mean it was an amazing counter.

Kakashi used those dogs to hold down Zabuza so he wouldn't try to dodge or counterattack. But I'll tell you, if Zabuza would've tried to counter the same way Itachi did, he'd have died on the spot. Furthermore, knowing Itachi's ability, it's unlikely that Kakashi would even bother trying to use a direct chidori on him. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that chidori isn't easy to evade, I'm saying that the way Itachi avoided it is not an easy manuevuer.

Speculations, "But I'll tell you" you don’t know that, your speculating but we do know this, Kakashi used the dogs to hold zabuza down, if the case was that he could have "1 shotted" zabuza then why even bother to hold him down.

Sasuke stated that Itachi was better at shruiken throwing then their father, who was head of Konoha's police force. I'm not sure how strong and skilled the Uchiha clan member's were but I'm confident Itachi's and Sasuke's father was near the top. Possibly only Itachi and Shusui surpassed him.

I think your forgetting Uchiha Madra, if people like Uchiha Madra, Itachi, His Father, Sasuke could exist in the Uchiha clan. I highly doubt there weren’t any others, when it ONLY comes to Kunai and Shuriken throwing skill's. Remember this is only about throwing skills which is a basic for every ninja. It's hard for me to believe that the people in the Uchiha clan who had the Sharingan couldn’t combine it with something as simple as throwing Kunai.

By the way Suna No Tate Err, The whole bunshin thing and hand seals speed I was basing it on the Manga, actually I based everything on the Manga I try not to do anything from the anime because they add shit that's not there and change stuff. You said you watched the episode, I cant be bothered to watch the episode right now but yea, I’m pretty sure they changed stuff and added shit that wasn’t there. In the manga it didn’t look like he was doing the hand seals in his robe…